Clone Wars Republic VS Horus Heresy Holy Terra

[Mr. Oragahn]

In AOTC and ROTS, how many clonetroopers were led by a Jedi?

Is there some sort of Dark Side shroud that will supposedly minimize Jedi powers?

[Gandalf]

In AOTC and ROTS, how many clonetroopers were led by a Jedi?

It varies. In AOTC Mace Windu lead a few squads of Clone Commandos. Yoda commanded the entire Army deployed. In ROTS Obi-Wan commandeds the entire open circle fleet while Yoda commands what appears to be a few battalions. There doesn't seem to be a definete answer. They seem to command units based on immediate need rather than a fixed system.

Is there some sort of Dark Side shroud that will supposedly minimize Jedi powers?

No, all Jedi get full access to their powers. Just as all the psykers and Primarchs get full access to their powers.

[Dragoon]

Strength doesn't mean squat in warfare when you have a blaster, the overly close-quarter nature of WH40K fighting is a writer fiat to make things more interesting. In a hand to hand fight the clone can just shoot the Space Marine in the face rather than grapple with him, that's assuming the fight ever devolves to a melee in the first place. Speed and back-up organs are also negated by the powwer of Republic weapons. You can't outrace a blaster bolt or a thermal detonator. And the vaunted armor of a Space Marine will still go down under the massed fire of millions of clones. I notice that you still fail to acknowledge that they are outnumbered millions to one.

The very nature of this fight will be tight quarters. The Imperial Palace on Terra is essentially a giant city. It's going to be an urban fight, up close and personal , with weapons fire at point-blank range. There won't be a chance for "A million clones" to focus all of their firepower on an individual marine. The Marines don't grapple in hand-to-hand combat. They punch, kick, use combat knives. or point-blank bolter fire. Rounds that explode after they penetrate tend to hurt. Officers and sargeants use power weapons and chain-swords, which can cut through even the power armor of other Marines.

The Marines have their own grenades to use. Frags and krak, both of which are effective. THey also have flame throwers, which will be of incredible usefullness in the close-quarters fighting.

The average blaster doesn't seem to be that much more powerful then a lasgun, which marine armor can shrug off pretty easily.

The Marines are also on the defense. Practical doctrine calls for at least three attackers to every defender. THis ratio will probably increase, as the Marines will be supported by dedicated guardsman.

You may have millions of clones, but the Imperium has millions of Imperial Guardsmen and hundreds of thousands of marines. So, the Marines won't be that badly outnumbered as they'll be backed up by normal humans.

The Guard aren't cowards. Some regiments may need their morale reinforced by commissars, but the vast majority have no need of them. THey will willingly fight to protect the emperor.


When it boils down to it, it's not just Space MArines versus Clones. It's Space MArines and the millions of men of the Imperial Guard versus the Clones.

[Gandalf]

The very nature of this fight will be tight quarters. The Imperial Palace on Terra is essentially a giant city. It's going to be an urban fight, up close and personal , with weapons fire at point-blank range. There won't be a chance for "A million clones" to focus all of their firepower on an individual marine. The Marines don't grapple in hand-to-hand combat. They punch, kick, use combat knives. or point-blank bolter fire. Rounds that explode after they penetrate tend to hurt. Officers and sargeants use power weapons and chain-swords, which can cut through even the power armor of other Marines.

Rounds that are going to tend to glance of clone armour due to it being a hard shell rather than a soft target.

The Marines have their own grenades to use. Frags and krak, both of which are effective. THey also have flame throwers, which will be of incredible usefullness in the close-quarters fighting.

Grenades will be of limited use against clones once again due to the nature of their armour. There is limited areas where shrapnel or energy can penetrate the shell.

The average blaster doesn't seem to be that much more powerful then a lasgun, which marine armor can shrug off pretty easily.

Except of course for being vastly outnumbered and simply going down under weight of fire. Even if the clones can only come at them ten at a time that's enought to whittle them down eventually. The clones can literally afford to lose millions of men against the Imperial Guard and Space Marines and come out on top.

The Marines are also on the defense. Practical doctrine calls for at least three attackers to every defender. THis ratio will probably increase, as the Marines will be supported by dedicated guardsman.

Yeah no kidding, that's tactics 101. Fortunatly the clones have this beat by a wide margin.

You may have millions of clones, but the Imperium has millions of Imperial Guardsmen and hundreds of thousands of marines. So, the Marines won't be that badly outnumbered as they'll be backed up by normal humans.

Millions of Guardsmen and hundreds of thousands of Marines VS hundreds of millions of clones. The Republic still has numbers on it's side. Basic math says the Republic takes this.

The Guard aren't cowards. Some regiments may need their morale reinforced by commissars, but the vast majority have no need of them. THey will willingly fight to protect the emperor.

Good for them, their still going to die.

When it boils down to it, it's not just Space MArines versus Clones. It's Space MArines and the millions of men of the Imperial Guard versus the Clones.

Refer to my basic math line. Unless I see numbers stating otherwise it looks like the Republic has the IOM outnumbered by a wide margin here.

[Mike DiCenso]

Gandalf wrote:
I have no hard numbers, I don't own the ROTS ICS unfortunatly. But it's got to be enough to wage a galactic wide war, the fleet in the Battle of Courascant filled the sky and raged for hours and included the planetary defense fleet and Obi-Wans open circle fleet. And this scenario includeds the entire Republic fleet. So I'd estimate at least 25,000 ships given that the later Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers of the Imperator type in addition to troop ships and the larger ships like the Tector and Alligiance. Not to mention smaller ships like the Carrack, Dreadnought and Lancers.

It depends on what source you want to go with and what assumptions you want to make here. The Battle of Courscant from a pure visual count of the ships seen in the RoTS FX would suggest a few hundred ships at most, while the backstage sources claim 5,000 ships were present from both sides. At the Empire's most important battle in RoTJ, it could muster only some 27 odd ships. But the Imperium fleets have and can vastly out number that.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Are the Emperor and Horus fighting mano-a-mano already? Or is it well before then?
-Mike

No the Republic and Horus have to land and fight their way to the Emperor or trick the Emperor to teleporting to Horus like in the original. Or come up with another solution.

Wait a minute. Does this mean that Horus and the Republic are working together to defeat the Emperor and Holy Terra?
-Mike

[Gandalf]

Wait a minute. Does this mean that Horus and the Republic are working together to defeat the Emperor and Holy Terra?
-Mike

Yes.

[Dragoon]

Rounds that are going to tend to glance of clone armour due to it being a hard shell rather than a soft target.

Bolters fire .75 caliber, armor-piercing, rocket-propelled mass-detonative rounds that detonate milliseconds after impact. It punches through lightly armored vehicles. Clone armor doesn't stop blaster fire, it's not going to stop bolters.


And even if it is heavy enough to stop the standrd bolter round, they can whip out these:

"Kraken Pattern Penetrator Rounds are powerful armour-piercing rounds. The deuterium core is replaced by a solid adamantine core and uses a heavier main charge. Upon impact, the outer casing peels away and the high velocity adamantium needle accelerates into the victim, where the larger detonator propels shards of super hardened metal further into the wound. These are effective against heavily-armoured infantry."

Grenades will be of limited use against clones once again due to the nature of their armour. There is limited areas where shrapnel or energy can penetrate the shell.

Clone armor isn't invincible to everything. Lasguns will most likely punch through it, as a lasgun bolt can blow an unarmored human's arm off. Even if diffused by the armor, it will still wound or kill.

Grenades will still be effective. Clone troopers are unarmored underneath the arm pit. Shrapnel that goes in there will pierc the lung or other vitals. Unlikely, thus the armor DOES help, but it's not invincible.

Except of course for being vastly outnumbered and simply going down under weight of fire. Even if the clones can only come at them ten at a time that's enought to whittle them down eventually. The clones can literally afford to lose millions of men against the Imperial Guard and Space Marines and come out on top.

The Imperium can also afford to lose millions. If you get into a war of attrition against the Imperium, they will lose. The Guard will be dug in as well and will take out many more clones before they die.

Millions of Guardsmen and hundreds of thousands of Marines VS hundreds of millions of clones. The Republic still has numbers on it's side. Basic math says the Republic takes this.

Uhhh...where are you getting the "hundreds of millions" number from? Before you were saying "millions".

And math isn't everything. The Imperial Guard and Marines have more firepower then the clones. The clones have virtually no squad level heavy weapons, aide from a slightly heavier repeating blaster rifle. Most of them use the notorioulsy inaccurate DC-15 blaster rifle, which has inferior ergonomics to those of the lasgun.

On a squad level, the Imperial guard can call on ehavy bolters, autocannons, lascannons, rocket launchers, mortars, greande launchers, plasma guns, meltaguns, sniper rifles and a variety of other specialized weapons.

They also have tanks, APCs and other heavily armored vehicles.

The clones will face dug-in troops, with heavy weapons and artillery support. Once they breach the palace they will have to fight room to room, corridor by corridor defended by troops fanatical enough to die rather then retreat.

Good for them, their still going to die.

I was pointing out that your falsely portrayed the Imperial Guard as cowards.

Refer to my basic math line. Unless I see numbers stating otherwise it looks like the Republic has the IOM outnumbered by a wide margin here.

Uhhh...The Imperium spans most of the galaxy. It has billions, if not trillions of guardsmen it could call in to help protectc earth. Plus, the Dark Angels, SPace Wolves and other space marine legions on the way as reinforcements. And that's aside from the troops already on the planet.

Plus the Space Marine Primarchs and the Emperor. They are essentially demi-Gods, with massive psychic powers.

[Gandalf]

*snip bolter info*

So it's even weapon wise. You still don't grasp that the Space Marines don't have the numbers on their side. By your own admission each Space MArine is only worth ten clones so they only kill 2 million clones before they all go down.

Clone armor isn't invincible to everything. Lasguns will most likely punch through it, as a lasgun bolt can blow an unarmored human's arm off. Even if diffused by the armor, it will still wound or kill.

A wounded clone can still be returned to the fight. That's the whole purpose of the armour. To save the clone from what would otherwise be a killing blow.

Grenades will still be effective. Clone troopers are unarmored underneath the arm pit. Shrapnel that goes in there will pierc the lung or other vitals. Unlikely, thus the armor DOES help, but it's not invincible.

Effective in some cases but not all. Clones can use their own thermal detonators against the Guard with impunity while the Guard can only count on their grenades being partially effective.

The Imperium can also afford to lose millions. If you get into a war of attrition against the Imperium, they will lose. The Guard will be dug in as well and will take out many more clones before they die.

Except where the Republic has hundreds of millions VS the Imperiums millions.

Uhhh...where are you getting the "hundreds of millions" number from? Before you were saying "millions".

It's in the OP.

And math isn't everything. The Imperial Guard and Marines have more firepower then the clones. The clones have virtually no squad level heavy weapons, aide from a slightly heavier repeating blaster rifle. Most of them use the notorioulsy inaccurate DC-15 blaster rifle, which has inferior ergonomics to those of the lasgun.

Show me where the DC-15 is inaccurate. The clones have the full gambit of their supporting equipment seen throughout the war. AT-TE's, air support, clone commando's, everything. THat includes the equipment seen in ROTS, the gear in the Republic Commando games and the Clone Wars cartoon.

On a squad level, the Imperial guard can call on ehavy bolters, autocannons, lascannons, rocket launchers, mortars, greande launchers, plasma guns, meltaguns, sniper rifles and a variety of other specialized weapons.

They also have tanks, APCs and other heavily armored vehicles.

See above.

The clones will face dug-in troops, with heavy weapons and artillery support. Once they breach the palace they will have to fight room to room, corridor by corridor defended by troops fanatical enough to die rather then retreat.

And you think the clones have never been in urban combat before?

I was pointing out that your falsely portrayed the Imperial Guard as cowards.

Than whats the point of the Commisars?

Uhhh...The Imperium spans most of the galaxy. It has billions, if not trillions of guardsmen it could call in to help protectc earth. Plus, the Dark Angels, SPace Wolves and other space marine legions on the way as reinforcements. And that's aside from the troops already on the planet.

And it takes months for the IMperium to get any where in the warp. The two reienforcing legions are close but two legions are not going to add much to the fight with hundreds of millions of clones already on the planet. And they have to fight their way through the Republic fleet to land.

Plus the Space Marine Primarchs and the Emperor. They are essentially demi-Gods, with massive psychic powers.

And there's what the Emperor and at most 9 Primarchs total? Versus at least 100 Jedi and their attending elite formations. Not even the Emperor can survive impossible odds.

*edited out the rudeness for civility sake.*

[Gandalf]

You understand that the DC-15's scope is linked in to the clones helmet right? Hence they don't have to shoulder their rifle or physically look down a scope or sight to fire on a target.

[Dragoon]

So it's even weapon wise. You still don't grasp that the Space Marines don't have the numbers on their side. By your own admission each Space MArine is only worth ten clones so they only kill 2 million clones before they all go down. But your wall of ignorance is strong so you'll likely just cast aside this basic fact again.

Space Marines don't NEED numbers. They're super-soldiers, able to take on entire armies by themselves.

Wiki refrence

And their effectiveness will be tripled on the defensive and in hand-to-hand they will simply slaughter the clones, especailly the dedicated asault squads.

A wounded clone can still be returned to the fight. That's the whole purpose of the armour. To save the clone from what would otherwise be a killing blow.

Wounding a clone would be more effective, as it would take at least two other clones to carry him to the rear, thus taking three clones out of the fight.

Effective in some cases but not all. Clones can use their own thermal detonators against the Guard with impunity while the Guard can only count on their grenades being partially effective.

Quite possible, but my money is on the Guard and Marines.

It's in the OP.

What's the OP?

Show me where the DC-15 is inaccurate.

Quoted from teh Wookiepedia article: "the inherent instability of plasma gas meant the DC-15A was notoriously difficult to aim."

The article also says the Clones were trained to handle that, but the point is it's still difficult to aim.

The clones have the full gambit of their supporting equipment seen throughout the war. AT-TE's, air support, clone commando's, everything. THat includes the equipment seen in ROTS, the gear in the Republic Commando games and the Clone Wars cartoon.

I'm not talking about vehicles, I'm talking about man-portable heavy weapons. Andthe clone rifle isn't something that gets issued to everyone.

And you think the clones have never been in urban combat before?[/quote

Urban combat makes life even easier for the defenders.

Than whats the point of the Commisars?

Tp encourage the men and take disciplinary action against thoe that need it. They are not used in crack regiments and generally don't execute people unless they're standing behind a bunch of penal legions conscripts.

And it takes months for the IMperium to get any where in the warp. The two reienforcing legions are close but two legions are not going to add much to the fight with hundreds of millions of clones already on the planet. And they have to fight their way through the Republic fleet to land.

Considering that Imperial ships are five miles long and bristle with firepower, that shouldn't be a problem.

And there's what the Emperor and at most 9 Primarchs total? Versus at least 100 Jedi and their attending elite formations. Not even the Emperor can survive impossible odds.

The Emperor is a God on Earth. He's that powerful. He made Gods back off because his attacks were so powerful.

[Socar]

What's the OP?

Original Post. In other words, the thread starter.

[Gandalf]

There's no point in even continuing this, we're just going around in circles.

*edited out the rudeness for civility sake.*

[Dragoon]

There's no point in even continuing this, we're just going around in circles.

*edited out the rudeness for civility sake.*

You concede defeat then? Very well.

[Jedi Master Spock]

If we are to consider what the Horus Heresy and the Republic could do in conjunction with each other, it is worth examining what happened in the original Horus Heresy.

Horus mortally wounded the Emperor and was in turn slain by the Emperor, who after that point was sealed in a life-support unit when loyalists recovered his body. In other words, if we simply add the Republic in as a faction allied with Horus, they are in a fine position to pick up the pieces afterwards, prevent the Emperor from being enshrined in the Golden Throne, and take over the place...

... particularly if Palpatine is being his normal clever, conniving, and difficult to telepathically scan self.