Clone Wars Republic VS Horus Heresy Holy Terra

[Gandalf]

The Clone Wars Era Republic military has discovered a wormhole to Holy Terra during the Horus attack on the Imperial Palace. Due to Palpatines machinations the entire Republic Fleet plus Grand Army of the Republic is available to attack the Imperial Palace and it's defences in space. For the scenario, Horus is not present nor will his forces attack Terra. Holy Terra has all the defences it had during the Heresy, Primarchs, Emperor, Space Marine Legions, etc.

Likewise the Republic has all forces available to them at the height of the Clone Wars, full complement of Jedi Generals, AT Series Walkers, ARC-170's, Acclamators, Venator class Star Destroyers etc.

Can the Republic take it or will the Emperor emerge victorious?

Note that Karen Travis craptastic numbers for the Grand Army of the Republic are not in effect here so we can reasonably assume that the Republic Army and Marines numbers are in the hundreds of millions (the better to balance out the millions of IG and Space Marines on Holy Terra) as well all ICS numbers are in effect for Republic ships and ground equipment. That should balance them out effectively with the Imperiums fleet in orbit over Holy Terra.

*Edit: With further info presented I will add a second scenario to this:

The Republic with the assistance of Warmaster Horus must take the Emperor of Man prisoner. Horus has all forces at his disposal during the original Horus Heresy and those of you more knowledgable about that era can fill in the blanks as to his forces Order of Battle as I'm getting my info of Wikipedia and it's not to helpful. Now I know that in the original Heresy that it was a close thing and that it could have gone either way several times.

[Mike DiCenso]

First off, welcome to the forum, Gandalf! :-)

As to your scenario, I assume you've followed the "Feds+Imps vs Imperium of Man" thread? Even assuming AoTC ICS-level firepower and hundreds of millions of Clonetroopers, the Imperium will still likely be the overall winner of any fight for the reasons cited in the previous thread. Also given the size of the Imperial Palace; covering a major portion of Holy Terra, and considering that the planet as a whole is for all intents and purposes a Hive World, and the Earth's moon has massive plantary defense lasers capable of destroying even the most powerful of WH40k starships, an attack by the Republic on Holy Terra, especially given that the Republic still has to contend with the Seperatist movement, would be suicide with serious expendature of troops and material being spent on defeating the Imperial Palace.

Now the Republic forces might have a chance, if Warmaster Horus' forces can keep the lunar-based defenses occupied long enough for the Republic forces to do some damage. However I still only see a Pyrrhic victory for them out of all this.
-Mike

[Gandalf]

First off, welcome to the forum, Gandalf! :-)

As to your scenario, I assume you've followed the "Feds+Imps vs Imperium of Man" thread? Even assuming AoTC ICS-level firepower and hundreds of millions of Clonetroopers, the Imperium will still likely be the overall winner of any fight for the reasons cited in the previous thread. Also given the size of the Imperial Palace; covering a major portion of Holy Terra, and considering that the planet as a whole is for all intents and purposes a Hive World, and the Earth's moon has massive plantary defense lasers capable of destroying even the most powerful of WH40k starships, an attack by the Republic on Holy Terra, especially given that the Republic still has to contend with the Seperatist movement, would be suicide with serious expendature of troops and material being spent on defeating the Imperial Palace.


Now the Republic forces might have a chance, if Warmaster Horus' forces can keep the lunar-based defenses occupied long enough for the Republic forces to do some damage. However I still only see a Pyrrhic victory for them out of all this.
-Mike

That being the case I will amend the scenario to include a second caveat including Horus. As I obviously didn't put enough thought into this.

[Mike DiCenso]

Are the Emperor and Horus fighting mano-a-mano already? Or is it well before then?
-Mike

[Gandalf]

Are the Emperor and Horus fighting mano-a-mano already? Or is it well before then?
-Mike

No the Republic and Horus have to land and fight their way to the Emperor or trick the Emperor to teleporting to Horus like in the original. Or come up with another solution.

[Dragoon]

If Horus isn't involved, then the Republic gets it ass whooped by Space Marines.

[Gandalf]

If Horus isn't involved, then the Republic gets it ass whooped by Space Marines.

That's a pretty convincing argument, what makes you say that? Considering there's only (according to what I've been told) something like 200,000 Space Marines on Terra and hundreds of millions of Army troops and Marines on the Republic side, if I was a Republic soldier I would be more worried about facing the IG than a Space Marine. Chances are he'd never see a SM.

[Dragoon]

Because space marines arre probably equal to about ten clones, if not more? Even if they do manage to fight their way through all of the Imperial Guard, the automated defenses, the fortifications and the Space Marines then they ahve to deal wit hthe Emperor himself, in his prime.

[Gandalf]

Because space marines arre probably equal to about ten clones, if not more?

And what exactly are you basing this on exactly? Yes they are genetically enhanced but so what? That just makes them more survivable. They spend their entire lives and time training for war? So do clones. Their weapons? I haven't seen any proof that bolters are any more powerful than blasters.

Even if they do manage to fight their way through all of the Imperial Guard, the automated defenses, the fortifications and the Space Marines then they ahve to deal wit hthe Emperor himself, in his prime.

The Jedi can handle the Emperor. And if they don't make it I doubt the Emperor can handle hundreds of blaster bolts. He's strong and a psyker but he's not all powerful.

[Gniops]

Ignoring the troop issue for the moment, how big is the Republic fleet ?

Heresy Era Sol is actually less fortified than 40k Sol.

[Dragoon]

Because space marines arre probably equal to about ten clones, if not more?

And what exactly are you basing this on exactly? Yes they are genetically enhanced but so what? That just makes them more survivable. They spend their entire lives and time training for war? So do clones. Their weapons? I haven't seen any proof that bolters are any more powerful than blasters.

Even if they do manage to fight their way through all of the Imperial Guard, the automated defenses, the fortifications and the Space Marines then they ahve to deal wit hthe Emperor himself, in his prime.

The Jedi can handle the Emperor. And if they don't make it I doubt the Emperor can handle hundreds of blaster bolts. He's strong and a psyker but he's not all powerful.

Space Marine armor can shrug off hundreds of lasgun hits, which have been shown to blast gaping holes in unarmored humans. Plu,s Sapce Marines will keep coming. Blow off an arm? He'll fight with the other one. Break his leg? He'll keep shooting. They will keep fighting until the life is completley gone from them.

A mere fifty Space Marines can turn the tide of battle in the 40K universe. They are equal to an entire regiment of Imperial Guardsman. Nothing has been seen to make me think the clones are anywhere near that level of awesome.



And it won't just be the Emperor. It will be him and several Space Marine Primarchs, who are powerful enough in their own right.

[Gandalf]

Ignoring the troop issue for the moment, how big is the Republic fleet ?

I have no hard numbers, I don't own the ROTS ICS unfortunatly. But it's got to be enough to wage a galactic wide war, the fleet in the Battle of Courascant filled the sky and raged for hours and included the planetary defense fleet and Obi-Wans open circle fleet. And this scenario includeds the entire Republic fleet. So I'd estimate at least 25,000 ships given that the later Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers of the Imperator type in addition to troop ships and the larger ships like the Tector and Alligiance. Not to mention smaller ships like the Carrack, Dreadnought and Lancers.

Heresy Era Sol is actually less fortified than 40k Sol.

That's what I thought.

[Gandalf]

Space Marine armor can shrug off hundreds of lasgun hits, which have been shown to blast gaping holes in unarmored humans. Plu,s Sapce Marines will keep coming. Blow off an arm? He'll fight with the other one. Break his leg? He'll keep shooting. They will keep fighting until the life is completley gone from them.

So? What you don't seem to grasp is that they are vastly out numbered. If 200,000 Space Marines are worth 10 clones each (and I don't buy that they are, I think your wanking your pet universe) that means that they only kill 2 million troops. That's not even enough to mention. The Republic is landing hundreds of millions of troops.

A mere fifty Space Marines can turn the tide of battle in the 40K universe. They are equal to an entire regiment of Imperial Guardsman. Nothing has been seen to make me think the clones are anywhere near that level of awesome.

Yeah in the 40K universe, where the average trooper is so poorly lead that they motivate the men by shooting those that hesitate to fight. That's a real statement on the opposition of the Space Marines right there. Where as the clones spent ten years training for war, lived, ate and breathed combat training in enviroments that were described as being as real as could be simulated. Real light weights there.

And it won't just be the Emperor. It will be him and several Space Marine Primarchs, who are powerful enough in their own right.

And the Jedi Generals that will be facing them are just wimps and not formidable psykers and warriors in their own rights? How about the back up of the elite regiments that always accompany them into combat?

[Dragoon]

Space Marine armor can shrug off hundreds of lasgun hits, which have been shown to blast gaping holes in unarmored humans. Plu,s Sapce Marines will keep coming. Blow off an arm? He'll fight with the other one. Break his leg? He'll keep shooting. They will keep fighting until the life is completley gone from them.

So? What you don't seem to grasp is that they are vastly out numbered. If 200,000 Space Marines are worth 10 clones each (and I don't buy that they are, I think your wanking your pet universe) that means that they only kill 2 million troops. That's not even enough to mention. The Republic is landing hundreds of millions of troops.

A mere fifty Space Marines can turn the tide of battle in the 40K universe. They are equal to an entire regiment of Imperial Guardsman. Nothing has been seen to make me think the clones are anywhere near that level of awesome.

Yeah in the 40K universe, where the average trooper is so poorly lead that they motivate the men by shooting those that hesitate to fight. That's a real statement on the opposition of the Space Marines right there. Where as the clones spent ten years training for war, lived, ate and breathed combat training in enviroments that were described as being as real as could be simulated. Real light weights there.

And it won't just be the Emperor. It will be him and several Space Marine Primarchs, who are powerful enough in their own right.

And the Jedi Generals that will be facing them are just wimps and not formidable psykers and warriors in their own rights? How about the back up of the elite regiments that always accompany them into combat?

You don't seem to grasp the cncept that they are elite warriors ,trained fro man incredibly young age for the sole purpose of combat and beining death to the enemies of the Imperium. They are genetically modified, highly trained and generally regarded as elite warriors. They spend their days training, training and doing some more training. In betweening that the ydo a bit more training and eat.


And Space Marines are almost always 'vastly outnumbered', no matter who they fight (unless, of course, they go in against Chaos. That's a whole new situation). And they come out on top quite often and even when they don't, they inflict massive casualties on the enemy.

I am not disuptingthe fact that clones are well-trained. They certainly are, but they do not have the genetically enhanced strength, speed or back-up organs of the Space Marines. The clones are well-motivated, but they aren't as big, as powerful or as well-armored as Space Marines.

[Gandalf]

You don't seem to grasp the cncept that they are elite warriors ,trained fro man incredibly young age for the sole purpose of combat and beining death to the enemies of the Imperium. They are genetically modified, highly trained and generally regarded as elite warriors. They spend their days training, training and doing some more training. In betweening that the ydo a bit more training and eat.

Everything I've read about the clones says the same thing, they train constantly for war. And spend all their time in an enviroment designed to foster that outlook.

And Space Marines are almost always 'vastly outnumbered', no matter who they fight (unless, of course, they go in against Chaos. That's a whole new situation). And they come out on top quite often and even when they don't, they inflict massive casualties on the enemy.

And the clones were outnumbered on Geonosis and every other battle in the Clone Wars. In fact the whole Clone Wars there were only hundreds of millions of clones and quaddrillions of battle droids.

I am not disuptingthe fact that clones are well-trained. They certainly are, but they do not have the genetically enhanced strength, speed or back-up organs of the Space Marines. The clones are well-motivated, but they aren't as big, as powerful or as well-armored as Space Marines.

Strength doesn't mean squat in warfare when you have a blaster, the overly close-quarter nature of WH40K fighting is a writer fiat to make things more interesting. In a hand to hand fight the clone can just shoot the Space Marine in the face rather than grapple with him, that's assuming the fight ever devolves to a melee in the first place. Speed and back-up organs are also negated by the powwer of Republic weapons. You can't outrace a blaster bolt or a thermal detonator. And the vaunted armor of a Space Marine will still go down under the massed fire of millions of clones. I notice that you still fail to acknowledge that they are outnumbered millions to one.