United Federation of Planets vs Flood

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United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Picard » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:56 pm

http://www.halopedian.com/Human-Flood_war

Link above for more info. In this scenario, UFP replaces Human Empire. Flood infestation proceeds as described until open war. How will events develop from outbreak of open warfare onwards?

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Lucky » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:31 am

Picard wrote:http://www.halopedian.com/Human-Flood_war

Link above for more info. In this scenario, UFP replaces Human Empire. Flood infestation proceeds as described until open war. How will events develop from outbreak of open warfare onwards?
They carry weapons to wipe out all life on a planet as ways to deal with Flood type things? It's one of the reason general order 24 exists.

This is like a single episode type thing for Star Trek, and if the flood angers some R.O.B. it is doomed.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Picard » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:36 pm

In OP I stated that "events continue as described in link until open war". That way, Flood gets several planets (probably few dozen planets) and also probably gets itself a nice fleet. So no, it is not a "single episode type", althought I think that several phaser features get Feds advantage in ground combat that Human Empire probably did not have.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Lucky » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:14 am

Picard wrote:In OP I stated that "events continue as described in link until open war". That way, Flood gets several planets (probably few dozen planets) and also probably gets itself a nice fleet. So no, it is not a "single episode type", althought I think that several phaser features get Feds advantage in ground combat that Human Empire probably did not have.
That is kind of the problem. Things are just extremely different in Halo and Star Trek.

Where is the Flood going to get the ships from for example? I don't recall the flood ever making it's own ships.

How do the flood gain control of the planets without anyone knowing what is going on?

Why would the UFP or any other Trek power try fighting the Flood on the ground? Even the Klingons aren't going to use ground combat.

What stops the UFP from killing the flood with a bio weapon, or any number of stupidly effective WMDs they have? The UFP likely has a weapon that would kill all the flood, and spread through the psychic link all flood seem to share, they did something similar to the borg.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Endgame_(episode)#Act_Ten

The UFP could possibly just make a vaccine to deal with the flood as silly as that might sound.

Star Trek is one of those settings where the flood are a single episode threat like those aliens from "conspiracy" only without the subtlety the parasites had.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(episode)

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Picard » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:17 pm

Flood originally infected animals that were kept as pets on large number of worlds, and initially seemed not only harmless, but desirable (that were Flood spores on work, not Infection Forms). So even Starfleet might not realize danger Flood poses from start, althought they will certainly realize it way faster than Human Empire did. Anyway, just assume Plot Induced Stupidity on work here.
What stops the UFP from killing the flood with a bio weapon, or any number of stupidly effective WMDs they have? The UFP likely has a weapon that would kill all the flood, and spread through the psychic link all flood seem to share, they did something similar to the borg.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Endgame_(episode)#Act_Ten

The UFP could possibly just make a vaccine to deal with the flood as silly as that might sound.
Actually, Human Empire did combination of two.
Star Trek is one of those settings where the flood are a single episode threat like those aliens from "conspiracy" only without the subtlety the parasites had.
That's exactly why I specified that "events are proceeding as described until onset of open warfare".

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by User1555 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:55 pm

Even assuming that the flood make it to the stage of open warfare, how could they compete? They seem to have a basic understanding on how to operate vehicles and weapons, but they don't seem to build any ships or weapons of their own, instead relying on found technology or mutations in the case of the pure forms.

Really, they seem like they would be a lesser threat then the borg, despite being a bit more dangerous in hand to hand, because they wouldn't be able to compete in a ship to ship basis.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:57 am

Picard wrote:Flood originally infected animals that were kept as pets on large number of worlds, and initially seemed not only harmless, but desirable (that were Flood spores on work, not Infection Forms). So even Starfleet might not realize danger Flood poses from start, althought they will certainly realize it way faster than Human Empire did. Anyway, just assume Plot Induced Stupidity on work here.
Chan cute meows... that's a nasty troyan.
But seriously, Lucky is quite right.
The way the Flood broke out wasn't subtle at all.
And even if a few planets fall, the UFP is far more advanced than the USMC. They don't need to accept the ground combat, and they can deny beaming as long as shields are up, and the Flood will have to bring shields down the usual way, by brute force. Trek has also sensor suites needed to detect them if the right protocol is implemented, which frankly should come rather quickly.

I doubt the USMC brought to the table anything remotely close to the best the UFP keeps in the closet. Besides, open warfare, by your OP, starts at a time when the UFP still had the vast number advantage all over the board. Not to count allies.

Warp is slow enough that nearby ships can attempt interception at warp (matching warp speeds) and engage Flooded ships.

The real problem is that the UFP will have to use all shuttles, runabouts and other ships which care warp capable to keep track of the infected ships trying to spread to other worlds.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Lucky » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:09 am

Picard, Species 8472 is what the flood wants to be when it grows up.
Picard wrote: Flood originally infected animals that were kept as pets on large number of worlds, and initially seemed not only harmless, but desirable (that were Flood spores on work, not Infection Forms). So even Starfleet might not realize danger Flood poses from start, althought they will certainly realize it way faster than Human Empire did. Anyway, just assume Plot Induced Stupidity on work here.
This would only make the slightest amount of sense is we are talking about new colonies, and that still leaves the flood stuck on the planets.
Picard wrote: Actually, Human Empire did combination of two.
The UNCS created a disease that was transmitted through the flood's psychic link?

The UNCS made an anti-flood vaccine?

I have never heard of these anti-flood weapons.
Picard wrote: That's exactly why I specified that "events are proceeding as described until onset of open warfare".
Given this is a Star Trek setting that means the flood is stuck planet side, and will likely be hit with a bio-weapon like the one used by the Klingons in "The Chase", or the flood angers an R.O.B., and never existed in the first place.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by sonofccn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:38 pm

Lucky wrote:The UNCS created a disease that was transmitted through the flood's psychic link?

The UNCS made an anti-flood vaccine?

I have never heard of these anti-flood weapons.
Actually going by what that halopedia page said he's talking about a human civilzation predating "modern man's" coexisting with the Forerunners. The page does mention humanity developed weapons against the flood but after losing to the Forerunners they erased all of it as a last ditch F- you! to the Forerunners who devolved them into proto-humans or something.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Picard » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:44 pm

Lucky wrote:The UNCS created a disease that was transmitted through the flood's psychic link?

The UNCS made an anti-flood vaccine?

I have never heard of these anti-flood weapons.
Human Empire, not UNSC. You (and Oragahn - he made same mistake) obviously didn't look throught link - Human Empire existed alongside Forerunner Empire, and fought against Flood, and against Forerunners when humans tried to take some Forerunner worlds to compensate for ones lost to Flood.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And even if a few planets fall, the UFP is far more advanced than the USMC.
As with Lucky. Read damn link before engaging in discussion - what you two are trying to do is akin to trying to make car without having slightest idea what car actually is. Or what wheel is. I put that link for a reason.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Lucky » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:24 am

Picard wrote:
Human Empire, not UNSC. You (and Oragahn - he made same mistake) obviously didn't look throught link - Human Empire existed alongside Forerunner Empire, and fought against Flood, and against Forerunners when humans tried to take some Forerunner worlds to compensate for ones lost to Flood.
I stand by my conclusion, but the UFP won't create the Flood in the first place like the human empire did because they will know what they have.

That article seems to all but say the Flood was genetically engineered by idiots who had no idea what they were doing. Seriously that article says the Flood is alien viruses and pets. There is no reason to assume the flood is anything, but a human empire creation.

The Forerunners and human empire incompetent primitive idiots.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by sonofccn » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:25 pm

Well going by what the halopedia has to say, I haven't played Halo since the first one way back in the day, I think everyone might be under estimating the sort of problem the Flood repersents. We've all be thinking along the lines of a military conflict, industrial base, number of ships, etc but the Flood strike me as closer to a viral infection...that thinks and hijacks bodies.

They don't want to fight starfleet, don't care battles or victories or anything. All they want is to jump a ship to a populated planet and began pumping out infection forms or whatever. Think about how fast warp is within its borders, think about how many backwater "colonial" worlds are out there with little more than warm bodies for the Flood to hook up.

The feds will win in the end, even if they have to incinerate each and every world the Flood land on, I think but its going to be more than the threat of the week.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:22 pm

Yeah, sorry for not reading this awesome piece of weaksauce fiction.
I can't think of any more retarded background than this one, especially when it takes itself so s'riously. Super advanced humans can't even spot genetic codes in spores they have in droves, inject them into puppies to make them more cute, and puppies mutate and attack humans, yet can mutate humans to win against the Flood on the viral level...

No, there's just no ROFL icon that will illustrate how pathetic this is, in and out universe.

Plus those humans were just too dumb not to bargain new worlds while they were the only ones to know how to fight the Flood on the viral level. Jee'.
Yet the Forerunners could even devolve the humans back to apes... ha ha ha ha.

No. See, there's just no way the UFP could be that retarded. It doesn't really matter.

If you can extract some power and apply it to pets and see them getting different, even if cuter, then you know that this powder is weird. When you know this powder came from ships of unknown origin, you're cautious.

If past humans managed to win despite having spread the shit on their own, it means that the infection and advance of the Flood across space isn't that easy and fast, despite super tech.

Now, we can still play the game and see what happens. The UFP and their allies will still retain most of the industrial base, while the Flood will have to first borrow stuff, eventually build some ships in the end if they get their hands on factories and manage to assemble stuff on their own.

The funny thing is that if you possess the original virii, which the UFP will, then they can build all sorts of antiviral weapons to target the Flood adequately.
Of course, how could they not know that it was dangerous?
Not to say that the UFP has strong limitations against genetic fiddling.

If the UFP has to torch worlds, knowing them, it may take time for them to do so. However, their more pragmatic allies may not wait that long.
In the end, the UFP will do horrible things, but probably "win" : whatever the UFP was before the Flood invasion would be gone.
But whatever would remain of the UFP would be some damn strong beast.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Picard » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:21 pm

No, it is not really stupid. Humans there never encountered Flood before, and spores, probably weakened by being in space for too long (bacteria and viruses can be weakened that way too - it is called vaccine.), seemed harmless. Except that Flood spores remained deadly, but it was not displayed immidiately. Mind you, they did test it - but initially, spores "proved" to be harmless.

But I do agree with other points - however, we saw several times crewmen doing stupidities they never would normally, so as to allow plot to keep going.
If past humans managed to win despite having spread the shit on their own, it means that the infection and advance of the Flood across space isn't that easy and fast, despite super tech.
Well, as I noted myself with Flood-Forerunner war before... all of Forerunner countermeasures were good... but all of them, except last one, were implemented too late. And Humans might have been even more advanced than Forerunners, just lacking numbers.

But from what I know about Human-Flood war, Humans basically resettled most of their population, creating "buffer zone", where they could fight Flood at will. Also, speed at which Flood can infect new worlds is basically limited by speed of ships they posses. Which means that Flood, in more advanced stages, is as deadly as its enemies. Main problem is Gravemind and possibly thousands of bodies (and brains) integrated into what is, for all intents and purposes, supercomputer and Flood version of Central Command.
If the UFP has to torch worlds, knowing them, it may take time for them to do so.
23rd century Starfleed seemed to be fairly unconcerned about it - if you have to execute General Order 24, and there is no other acceptable solution, then you do it and don't think about it anymore. They probably will start to burn worlds as soon as they realize danger posed by Flood - it is only question of when they will realize it, and how far will Flood spread.
whatever the UFP was before the Flood invasion would be gone.
That is interesting question on its own - how would experience of Flood war change Federation? I imagine it becoming more militant, possibly even more than TOS or post-Dominion War era - still, we have to define what era Federation are we using. I imagined 24th centuy one, but didn't think about exact time period. And it will probably influence their response - while 2350's and 2360's Starfleet might keep trying to find cure for Flood - and I doubt Human Empire-style cure would be easily acceptable for them, beacouse it involves sacrificing large number of genetically-modified people to destroy Flood biomass - I imagine that TOS or 2370's - 2380's Federation commander would just pull off limited-area bombardment or GO24 (depending on scale of infestation) as soon as they realized what is happening on infested world.

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Re: United Federation of Planets vs Flood

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:55 pm

Picard wrote:No, it is not really stupid. Humans there never encountered Flood before, and spores, probably weakened by being in space for too long (bacteria and viruses can be weakened that way too - it is called vaccine.), seemed harmless. Except that Flood spores remained deadly, but it was not displayed immidiately. Mind you, they did test it - but initially, spores "proved" to be harmless.

But I do agree with other points - however, we saw several times crewmen doing stupidities they never would normally, so as to allow plot to keep going.
Not at the scale of a whole civilization, not that fast, not so recklessly. It's beyond mind boggling. Stuff arrives from outer galactic range, which by itself should be a big surprise and infinitely puzzling, then after a couple batteries of tests, they deem the stuff safe, despite the fact that it clearly alters creatures. Notwithstanding, they spread it like mad, and above all, they manage to miss the fact that the damn spores contained genetic material, which for all intents and purposes, being so complex as Flood, would be quite obvious.
It's not just that. Even taking the road that this genotype is coded differently than all life on Earth (why not?), either you recognize that it is code, and therefore at this scale it can only be genetic or similar. Eventually, if you're advanced enough, you may even know what this code produces: either you manage to let it grow, or you literally simulate the organism by merely reading the code.
Otherwise, you don't recognize it, as in there are parts of the stuff you don't know what they're used to do.

In the less stupid scenario, they have read the genetic code, and deemed it safe, or harmless. The fact that they tested it on animals implies a level of tech that wouldn't even allow them to read the code so simply, and certainly not run a simulation off the bat.
Seems like the prehistoric humans of then were at a level of tech that may have been similar to Star Wars', where what is baffling is certainly the scale of the industry more than some bits of tech.

In all other cases, they fully know that there is this agent they can't read, can't know what it's supposed to do, but since it does nothing, they literally decide to spread it, despite that and its much mysterious origins.

Before anyone objects, the story with vaccines, regardless of your stance about them, is that when the virus is deemed neutered, it's actually fully understood by scientists. Not only that, but they do know that it's a virus, they can extract the genetic material, and they also know what it does when it's active.

In the human society described in the book, we're dealing with people who weren't wise enough to humbly take life for what it was, and decided that cats weren't cute enough. The kind stupid enough to actually get hacked by the bloody /b/ :D

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