The Invasion of the b 5 Galaxy

[User1555]

it was during in the beginning and the Vorchan came out behind the G'quan opened fire and iirc split it apart

I don't remember the episode name, but you can find a clip of the battle by youtubing 'Narn vs Shadows' three Narn ships get cut in half lengthwise. Another Narn ship suffers a similar fate when it gets sent to Za'ha'doom (not sure on spelling) by G'kar/

picture an entire race of composite Joe pesci characters backed up by that psycho Micheal Madson character from reservoir dogs -right at the tail end of the Centauri republic a big massively potent bully

Drazi are tough crazy bastards with that Pesci style "i don't care if your bigger then me" through sheer grit they keep the centuari from steam rolling them making it so it's not worth it

they have allot of respect because of that and probably have the largest military in the LON..they are influential because they are supposedly literally right on the Republics doorstep and are fierce enough that the Centuari don't really go completely conquest happy on them

Drazi are indeed one of the more militarily prominent races in the series. Of the younger races Only the Humans, Minbari, Centauri, Narn, Vree, Brakiri, the unnamed red-armored race and Drazi are shown to have a military formidable in size and/or strength. Brakiri ships admittedly suck though, Vree are seldom seen in combat, and the red-armored race only show up in one episode. Removing these from the grouping leaves us with the Minbari, Humans, Centauri, Narn, Drakh, and Drazi. Top six isn't bad.

Drazi are probably the most violent of all of the 'good' races. They aren't afraid to use violence to get what they want, even going so far as to ally with raiders to extort resources from planets bordering their space. They were planning to wipe out the population of one such planet to cover up their activities, and were even willing to ambush the whitestar fleet. (although it is pretty obvious from dialogue that they would be no match should the whitestars ambush them) Furthermore, lets not forget that it was the Narn and Drazi that finally beat the Centauri.

Drazi might not be the strongest YR, but they have demonstrated repeatedly the ability to field large groups of sky serpents and sunhawks. And additionally, have the distinction of being very warlike.

[Admiral Breetai]

I don't remember the episode name, but you can find a clip of the battle by youtubing 'Narn vs Shadows' three Narn ships get cut in half lengthwise. Another Narn ship suffers a similar fate when it gets sent to Za'ha'doom (not sure on spelling) by G'kar/]

theres that but I was referring strictly to Vorchan fire power seeing how tough narn ships are being shot apart like that was serious

Drazi are indeed one of the more militarily prominent races in the series. Of the younger races Only the Humans, Minbari, Centauri, Narn, Vree, Brakiri, the unnamed red-armored race and Drazi are shown to have a military formidable in size and/or strength. Brakiri ships admittedly suck though, Vree are seldom seen in combat, and the red-armored race only show up in one episode. Removing these from the grouping leaves us with the Minbari, Humans, Centauri, Narn, Drakh, and Drazi. Top six isn't bad.]

They Don't have huge cap ships but swift lean ships that are tough customers to be sure

Drazi are probably the most violent of all of the 'good' races. They aren't afraid to use violence to get what they want, even going so far as to ally with raiders to extort resources from planets bordering their space. They were planning to wipe out the population of one such planet to cover up their activities, and were even willing to ambush the whitestar fleet. (although it is pretty obvious from dialogue that they would be no match should the whitestars ambush them)

in the EU there was a race of pyscho's who fielded nothing but fighters thousands and thousands of fighters...and supposedly even the Dilgar in the middle of they're great war GTFO'd from the system rather then deal with the swarm of locusts with nukes from what I remember not sure how canon that is but mmaaaaayyuun

Furthermore, lets not forget that it was the Narn and Drazi that finally beat the Centauri.

only because the Drakh had the entire home defense fleet run away...prior to that they where rolflstomping the entire league including Drazi fleets..

and we saw what they did to the narn homeworld

Drazi might not be the strongest YR, but they have demonstrated repeatedly the ability to field large groups of sky serpents and sunhawks. And additionally, have the distinction of being very warlike.

which was my point these folks may not be a premier power but they are tough bastards

[Lucky]

nano machines and organic matter lots of it..and in the EU iirc from corpses so it's a zombie mech basically..

That does not sound like an efficient way to build anything.

but as far as main canon goes no the one found under mars was hanging out there for the past thousand years or so taking a nap it wasn't grown there

Mars would have pretty much everything a growing battle crab could want, and in between wars is when the shadows would be growing their ships.

aside from the Centauri Minbari and Vree no younger race uses anti matter (the vree are supposedly able to go even footing with the Minbari)

I'm thinking of the Gaim bombs.

I don't recall those being used at Corriana

I was thinking of the Gaim bombs that were 500 to 600 megatons. The maximum yield one of them could have delivered was 250 to 300 megatons, and for that they would have to be touching the target

lots of B5 races use pack hunting mentality...if the average armor was as craptastic as the boneheads entire fleets would be slaughtered by will placed charges

They have to be very close to their target, and space is big. You have to know the problems John ran into when he did exactly what you are suggesting, and knew where the target was going to be.

They can't be spotted, or they will be destroyed or avoided.

These would actually be more practical:
http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Mine

picture an entire race of composite Joe pesci characters backed up by that psycho Micheal Madson character from reservoir dogs -right at the tail end of the Centauri republic a big massively potent bully

Drazi are tough crazy bastards with that Pesci style "i don't care if your bigger then me" through sheer grit they keep the centuari from steam rolling them making it so it's not worth it

they have allot of respect because of that and probably have the largest military in the LON..they are influential because they are supposedly literally right on the Republics doorstep and are fierce enough that the Centuari don't really go completely conquest happy on them

That sounds about right. They also make Klingons look sane.

no battle of proxima methinks

You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb2D331Jn7I
It almost looks like the EA is shooting wildly.

small compared to the centauri

Where are we told the size of the Centauri Republic?

I can buy matching or beating out the LON..and the minbari but humanity the centuari and narn?

Well the Empire is larger then all of them combined isn't it? THe FTL used in B5 kind of limits the number of planets at least the younger races can get to.

Provided the Rebels don't cause to much trouble the Empire should have more resources logically, but then since when does logic and Star Wars canon match up?

regenerating armor that adapts to your enemies weaponry and magneto gravitic shield that allows for disrupting the very types of weapons the enemy fires?

Well I don't recall the Vorlons having shields that could be used at the same time as weapons.

Shields are certainly an advantage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4l3aZn3h9E

hehe a bio mechanical macross wielding lightsabers..oh yes

This never got that far, but you can just see that happening.
http://addventure.bast-enterprises.de/f ... otech+Jedi

eh?? very flimsy excuse to dismiss

I can't see any damage, and just leaving a black mark that I never saw is not proof of damage to the hull of a star ship.

so leia is superhumanly durable? eating a multi megaton blaster to the shoulder and taking only a flesh wound? (lol)

Who knows how blasters work, but part of the reason Storm Troopers have such bad aim is the recoil.

collapsing rigging killing people on the inside as the ceiling collapses on you in fire and doom..is a bit more then exploding consoles

Same idea however. As I recall Luke and the other pilots were shooting at exposed pipes, cables and stuff. It's why some times when Luke shot stuff nearly nothing happened, and other times there was a big explosion.

[Lucky]

Rebels and TIEs die like flies, do they stupidly, wastefully, and pointlessly send their people to die because they know almost all their people will die in the fighters? No because they know that a fighter can do considerable damage to a capital ship if it gets in range.

Considering that in both verses it's fighter on fighter combat that seems to kill fighters, and not point dense.

Since most Younger Races anti-fighter capabilities are forward-oriented and some races neglect it entirely, it makes sense to use fighters in B5, since Imperial point defense generally can't hit worth a darn, it makes sense for the rebels to field fighters, since the Imperial point defense sucks so much, it makes sense for them to field fighters to counter any fighters their enemies might bring to a fight.

Why have you been saying B5 has good almost Star Trek like point defense, and then say B5 has crappy point defense now?

Starfuries are more maneuverable then SW fighters and can go at speeds comparable to a whitestar when they want to, while having better targeting computers and comparable weapons to a SW fighter. Minbari fighters have stealth technology as well as those horrific beam weapons. Most of the other races field mediocre or poor fighters.

Since Star Fury die to Minbari fighter, and Minbari fighters move like Star Wars fighters I fail to see how anything you have posted shows an advantage o B5?

What? how does that hurt my argument? Those missiles were going at least as fast as an X-wing, and all of them got knocked out before hitting the Centauri ships. Point to the spot where the Imperial Armada at Endor wipes out the entirety of the rebel fighter support before they close to engagement range.

The missiles exploded because a missile or two near them exploded, and they made no attempt to evade the Centauri fire. It even looked like the Centauri just needed to get a shot near a missile to make it explode. That isn't going to happen even with crappy T.I.E.

I want to know how fast you think those missiles were traveling, and I want proof StarWars fighters travel at that speed.

I mislabeled their weapons in my first post that I mentioned the Vree, I clarified that it was their main weapon the second time I mentioned them. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Besides:

It makes a big difference as does the context in which the fighter is targeted.

You made the same mistake, the minbari used a tractor beam. At any rate, nothing here hurts the babylon 5 cause in any form. Vree being able to track and orient their ship to fire on fighters that effectively with their main gun while on the move speaks to the prowess of their ships, not any weakness. Ditto for the tractor beam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpg-N_Pp-g
It's not hard to target a large group moving in a straight line that ignores you, and that is what the Vree did.

The problem is the EA and Minbari are not the standard.

Kind cool the way the Vorlon fighter eats the shadow fighter..

Whitestars have no point defense, and I did not claim that they did. I only claimed that Omegas and OmegaX's were capable of hitting them at distance.

You seem to be claiming things for B5 side in general to me weather on purpose or not.

Still better then keeping on in a straight line without being able to return fire. I'm sure that the rebel fighters at yavin and endor would have like to have that ability.

Playing ball turret like only Star Fury do does not get you out of the crosshairs. It was flying in a straight line that got dear porkins killed after all.

Yes, the yields do change. If we limit our conclusions to what we can gain from what is seen and heard in the movies and the series, we see that there really isn't that much of a firepower disparity between the two, that SW armor isn't particularly strong, SW point defense is variable from vehicle to vehicle, Star Destroyers don't have any armament besides their fighters and turbolasers, and that shields are somewhat unreliable.

The problem for B5 is that each hit will cause major damage, and Star Wars ships can have a much higher rate of fire then B5.

The shields make a big difference.

Still don't see it, but I admit I might have been wrong on this point, they probably protect them from fighter-sized objects, considering the admiral seemed to be pretty concerned when the shields went down with that A-wing barreling down, and he was pretty calm up until then.

The shields are nothing to sneeze at. Just look at episode one when the shield on the droid control ship takes direct hits from proton torpedos.

The millennium Falcon had the ability to shoot down fighters that were behind it, that is not made up. The fact that it did not does not for whatever reason does not change this. The point was that each individual starfury would have the option of firing behind it, and that this ability is inherent in all starfuries, not just a single unique craft.

Starfuries obey newtons laws, they change their orientation, not the direction the craft is moving in-they retain their forward motion.

The comment I responded to sounded like you thought that the Falcon was firing behind it which it was not.

Newton's laws have advantages and disadvantages. A Star Fury would likely crash if it tried to make the DS-II run because it's so narrow.

There are two obviously separate explosions. There is one explosion from when the blasters hit, and another a moment following. This would be similar to when Anakin shoots the reactor on the Lucrehulk, which sets off some sort of chain reaction explosion. We see the AT-AT fire on its 'normal' setting and it seems to leave small craters much smaller then the ones left by the 'one ton' video you posted earlier, and was still able to blow up shielded snowspeeders rather reliably. (I say shielded because we see the speeders take hits from inside the cockpit several times and survive, yet other times they get blown up rather easily.

Those speeders could just be armored. The AT-AT are stated to be armored, but not shielded, and you still get what look like shield reactions.

There is actually a comic that has the results of a planetary bombardment that left larger craters.

Since you asked so nicely:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5668/swfalcon.jpg

The flash wraps around the lip of metal, which seems to indicate that the blast cut through the metal.

That is actually interesting, but blasters normally just leave round holes in things they penetrate.

The farm we want is the one that shows the panel after the glow is gone.

Rebel ships have shields, TIEs do not. And shields let ships take direct hits.....sometimes. Other times they just explode. At any rate, they seem to be much stronger from the front then they are from the rear.

Shields can only stop so much energy. Destroyer droids in episode -I could easily shrug off pistols and "rifles", but an N-1 could easily kill them with one shot.

[User1555]

Considering that in both verses it's fighter on fighter combat that seems to kill fighters, and not point dense.

Pretty much every major battle in B5 shows fighters getting nailed by point defense, and you are still clinging to this?

Why have you been saying B5 has good almost Star Trek like point defense, and then say B5 has crappy point defense now?

Some of the races forgo point defense in favor of using their main guns on squadrons or relying on their own fighters. These races seem to be at a disadvantage compared to those who do have PD, but all of these methods have been shown to be effective.

Since Star Fury die to Minbari fighter, and Minbari fighters move like Star Wars fighters I fail to see how anything you have posted shows an advantage o B5?

Minbari fighters are at least as fast, if not faster, then starfuries. They might not have a maneuverability advantage, but they definitely have an edge in firepower, and there is that whole stealth technology thing I keep bringing up, that you seem to keep ignoring.

The missiles exploded because a missile or two near them exploded, and they made no attempt to evade the Centauri fire. It even looked like the Centauri just needed to get a shot near a missile to make it explode. That isn't going to happen even with crappy T.I.E.

I want to know how fast you think those missiles were traveling, and I want proof StarWars fighters travel at that speed.

TIEs explode from single shot weapons. unless those shots were proximity detonated, they had to have hit at least some of the missiles, considering we see two shots fly through without detonating, that shows us that at least most of them hit. even assuming that the shots aren't HE, TIEs create massive explosions even when hit by non-energy weapons, so a chain-reaction is entirely possible. Even if x-wings are twice the size of those missiles, they would be traveling somewhat fast, and those missiles seemed to be about the same size as a sentri.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpg-N_Pp-g
It's not hard to target a large group moving in a straight line that ignores you, and that is what the Vree did.

The problem is the EA and Minbari are not the standard.

Kind cool the way the Vorlon fighter eats the shadow fighter..

It makes a big difference as does the context in which the fighter is targeted.

Orienting your ship to fire on a target while moving in a line and hitting their targets? That is more then a SD has proven capable of doing, despite the fact that they have more guns, swiveling turrets, and move so ponderously that they might as well be still.

You seem to be claiming things for B5 side in general to me weather on purpose or not.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

Playing ball turret like only Star Fury do does not get you out of the crosshairs. It was flying in a straight line that got dear porkins killed after all.

It works pretty good for the starfuries on the show. If it was so bad a design choice, you'd think we would see more of those two-seater starfuries. It's not any riskier then continuing to fly on a straight line and getting blown to bits.

The problem for B5 is that each hit will cause major damage, and Star Wars ships can have a much higher rate of fire then B5.

The shields make a big difference.

What?!? There is no evidence that SW turbolasers have a higher rate of fire then B5 weapons or do more damage. Show me the point in the movies where a non-fighter ship gets hit by a turboloaser and explodes in an enormous, fireball. We only ever see three SDs get taken out, and two of them were from collisions, while the third was in the background.

Those speeders could just be armored. The AT-AT are stated to be armored, but not shielded, and you still get what look like shield reactions.

There is actually a comic that has the results of a planetary bombardment that left larger craters.

AT-ATs seem to be both armored and shielded. Of course TL would cause craters, although we never see any. The AT-ATs blaster cannons leave tiny craters though, and there is no reason to think that they were any weaker then TL.

That is actually interesting, but blasters normally just leave round holes in things they penetrate.

The farm we want is the one that shows the panel after the glow is gone.

That's about as good as it gets, the point of impact is at an angle, so you can't see if there is a hole, but there is a scorch mark, and the flash does wrap around to the other side of the lip.

The shields are nothing to sneeze at. Just look at episode one when the shield on the droid control ship takes direct hits from proton torpedos.

Prequel trilogy seems to be significantly higher tech then OT. If the Republic invaded B5 space, things might go down differently, but OT-era empire is at a significant tech disadvantage comparatively.

The comment I responded to sounded like you thought that the Falcon was firing behind it which it was not.

Newton's laws have advantages and disadvantages. A Star Fury would likely crash if it tried to make the DS-II run because it's so narrow.

The falcon is the only rebel ship seen to be capable of firing behind it. Every starfury can do that, which seems to be a distinct advantage.

A starfury might have problems navigating the tunnel, considering TIEs had trouble with it, But the Falcon did it, so it might be possible.

[Admiral Breetai]

]
That does not sound like an efficient way to build anything.]

when your ships can at mininum carve trenches in planets deep enough to cause vulcanic eruptions visible from orbit over what looked like at least a few dozen miles or more and your tactic is "zerg rush using puppet minions in control " and your all about shock and awe

they aren;t going for efficiency they are going for pants shitting terror

]Mars would have pretty much everything a growing battle crab could want, and in between wars is when the shadows would be growing their ships.

in canon it was merely taking a dirt nap waiting for the bosses to come wake him up

]]I was thinking of the Gaim bombs that were 500 to 600 megatons. The maximum yield one of them could have delivered was 250 to 300 megatons, and for that they would have to be touching the target

they field mines like that as well and either way they aren't fleet killers

Centauri mines are but they fly

They can't be spotted, or they will be destroyed or avoided.

the force of which would likely result in doom for the one doing the destroying

]That sounds about right. They also make Klingons look sane.

they're cultures evolved to that level because the centuari are almost always either raiding the crap out of them or trying to conquer them

You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb2D331Jn7I
It almost looks like the EA is shooting wildly.

scoring kills on fighters and whitestars is blind shooting?

Where are we told the size of the Centauri Republic?

in the series? I think in born to the purple

Well the Empire is larger then all of them combined isn't it? THe FTL used in B5 kind of limits the number of planets at least the younger races can get to.

lack of terraforming technology does that actually since they need to settle on habitable worlds only and it tends to be spaced out over a vast territory

Provided the Rebels don't cause to much trouble the Empire should have more resources logically, but then since when does logic and Star Wars canon match up?

Well I don't recall the Vorlons having shields that could be used at the same time as weapons.

even the Dilgar had shields while firing weapons..

Shields are certainly an advantage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4l3aZn3h9E

gravitic shielding is a mainstay of every AG capable race in b5 what the FO's and the third spacers use is something else entirely separate from that

I can't see any damage, and just leaving a black mark that I never saw is not proof of damage to the hull of a star ship.

the ship was black the armor was clearly scorched

Who knows how blasters work, but part of the reason Storm Troopers have such bad aim is the recoil.

Lucky..you just tried to justify the above comment? about multi megaton blasters?

Same idea however. As I recall Luke and the other pilots were shooting at exposed pipes, cables and stuff. It's why some times when Luke shot stuff nearly nothing happened, and other times there was a big explosion.

why would there be exposed sections on a god damn fortress world?

[User1555]

the ship was black the armor was clearly scorched

It's worse then that. If you look at the link I posted, the blast from the impact wraps around the lip of metal, indicating that the small explosion from a stormtroopers blaster is capable of going through about an inch or more of whatever the falcon is made out of. Considering we see a similar mark on am ATST in ROTJ (presumably from small arms fire) we can tell that SW armor provides very little protection, and won't save you from fighter-scaled weapons unless your really lay it on thick and cover THAT with shielding-such as on the ATAT. The light plating we see so often though, like on the SD shield generators, SD bridge, death star surface, and fighters seems to do near diddly. SW armor clearly does nearly nothing, we see fighter shields take turbolaser hits, but only from the front, and sometimes shots just go right through them.

Lucky..you just tried to justify the above comment? about multi megaton blasters?

Also, Han, Leia, and Luke seem to have no trouble at all firing imperial blasters with accuracy.

[Lucky]

when your ships can at mininum carve trenches in planets deep enough to cause vulcanic eruptions visible from orbit over what looked like at least a few dozen miles or more and your tactic is "zerg rush using puppet minions in control " and your all about shock and awe

they aren;t going for efficiency they are going for pants shitting terror

The bigger the planet killer a side has the less scary they become. That is why Star Trek powers are scary, but Babylon 5 first ones are a joke.

in canon it was merely taking a dirt nap waiting for the bosses to come wake him up

Where is that stated?

the force of which would likely result in doom for the one doing the destroying

I don't recall nukes working that way.

they're cultures evolved to that level because the centuari are almost always either raiding the crap out of them or trying to conquer them

Somehow I think it was more a Shadow/Vorlon thing what with the civil war ever 5 years was it where which side you were on was luck of the draw.

scoring kills on fighters and whitestars is blind shooting?

It almost looks like the Star Fury pilot was trying to be shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb2D331Jn7I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO00y-4v ... re=related

in the series? I think in born to the purple

I just can't find any exact information on the Net about the size of the Centauri Republic

lack of terraforming technology does that actually since they need to settle on habitable worlds only and it tends to be spaced out over a vast territory

Jump space has quirks to it that makes it easier and or faster to get some places then others, and some places at least the younger races just can't reach

even the Dilgar had shields while firing weapons..

Since when? I have watched al;l 5 seasons, and only the Vorlons and third spacers have any sort of shielding.

gravitic shielding is a mainstay of every AG capable race in b5 what the FO's and the third spacers use is something else entirely separate from that

Yet it is never used by them on screen.

the ship was black the armor was clearly scorched

I can light a firecracker on a brick, and the brick will turn black. Does that mean the brick has been damaged, no.

Blaster bolts seem to be made out of some sort of some sort of gas, and explode. They aren't just say photons.

Lucky..you just tried to justify the above comment? about multi megaton blasters?

We don't know why blasters have the level of recoil they do.

Recoil + rapid fire = bad aim in the real world so the recoil can't help the already poor aim of Storm troopers.

why would there be exposed sections on a god damn fortress world?

You could ask the same thing about the exhaust port.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWxwingfal.html

[Lucky]

Pretty much every major battle in B5 shows fighters getting nailed by point defense, and you are still clinging to this?

Same with Star Wars, but it is only a small number, and Star Fury have a nasty habit of not even trying to dodge.

Some of the races forgo point defense in favor of using their main guns on squadrons or relying on their own fighters. These races seem to be at a disadvantage compared to those who do have PD, but all of these methods have been shown to be effective.

It's as effective as it is in Star Wars.

Minbari fighters are at least as fast, if not faster, then starfuries. They might not have a maneuverability advantage, but they definitely have an edge in firepower, and there is that whole stealth technology thing I keep bringing up, that you seem to keep ignoring.

Then I guess Star Wars has better fighters then Babylon 5 in general then since their craft are on par with Minbari. Star Fury can only turn and accelerate at Gs that will not cause the pilot harm, but Star Wars is not limited to that.

Where is it stated that Minbari fighter or even most White Star have the stealth system?

TIEs explode from single shot weapons. unless those shots were proximity detonated, they had to have hit at least some of the missiles, considering we see two shots fly through without detonating, that shows us that at least most of them hit. even assuming that the shots aren't HE, TIEs create massive explosions even when hit by non-energy weapons, so a chain-reaction is entirely possible. Even if x-wings are twice the size of those missiles, they would be traveling somewhat fast, and those missiles seemed to be about the same size as a sentri.

It's not very hard to hit a large number of things that are grouped very close together when you are firing a bleep load of shots, and the things make no effort to evade.

For all their faults TIE fighters are not Leo from Gundam Wing. They do not blow up simply because the guy nearest to them was blown up. THose missiles are junk.

Orienting your ship to fire on a target while moving in a line and hitting their targets? That is more then a SD has proven capable of doing, despite the fact that they have more guns, swiveling turrets, and move so ponderously that they might as well be still.

That assumes the target wasn't off screen.

The Vree what amounts to a shotgun, and they just started firing before the Vorlon fighters were in range.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

You've said Babylon 5 has good point defense, and you've said many groups in Babylon 5 don't bother with point defense at all.

What?!? There is no evidence that SW turbolasers have a higher rate of fire then B5 weapons or do more damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oul86hRJws&feature=fvsr

Show me the point in the movies where a non-fighter ship gets hit by a turboloaser and explodes in an enormous, fireball. We only ever see three SDs get taken out, and two of them were from collisions, while the third was in the background.

Try the battle of Endor, but ships are designed not to explode in the manner you describe in both universes.

You'll note that Star Wars defenses seem to be optimized for energy weapons.

AT-ATs seem to be both armored and shielded. Of course TL would cause craters, although we never see any. The AT-ATs blaster cannons leave tiny craters though, and there is no reason to think that they were any weaker then TL.

Except AT-AT don't have turbolasers. They have medium and heavy blasters.

Why would something with a much larger reactor not be able to have much more powerful weapons?

That's about as good as it gets, the point of impact is at an angle, so you can't see if there is a hole, but there is a scorch mark, and the flash does wrap around to the other side of the lip.

And the mark means nothing without a hole since the bolts them selves are explosive.

I take it you have never played with fireworks. They often leave scorch marks on bricks, but don't damage the brick.

Prequel trilogy seems to be significantly higher tech then OT. If the Republic invaded B5 space, things might go down differently, but OT-era empire is at a significant tech disadvantage comparatively.

There is the chance everything in Ep1 through 3 is just more expensive, and the OT has more powerful things.

The falcon is the only rebel ship seen to be capable of firing behind it. Every starfury can do that, which seems to be a distinct advantage.

Not a big advantage if we go by Babylon five.

A starfury might have problems navigating the tunnel, considering TIEs had trouble with it, But the Falcon did it, so it might be possible.

Only the older models of Tie had any trouble, and TIE are comparable to X-wing in speed and agility..

It works pretty good for the starfuries on the show. If it was so bad a design choice, you'd think we would see more of those two-seater starfuries. It's not any riskier then continuing to fly on a straight line and getting blown to bits.

The thunderbolts are replacing the one seater versions of star fury in Babylon 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfury

[quote=" Aurochs] Also, Han, Leia, and Luke seem to have no trouble at all firing imperial blasters with accuracy. [/quote]
Recoil and a high rate of fire in the real world make it hard to hit your target after the first few bullets.

Why Star Wars military types tend to be such bad shots is never really explained.

[User1555]

Same with Star Wars, but it is only a small number, and Star Fury have a nasty habit of not even trying to dodge.

What? You have no proof of this. Evasive actions are referred to and displayed on screen repeatedly. Star wars point defense has been proven to be incredibly ineffective, while B5 point defense has been shown to be incredibly effective.

It's as effective as it is in Star Wars.

Numerous counterexamples have already been given. repeating disproved claims does not add to their merit, please give some actual proof that SW has better countermeasures against fighters.

Then I guess Star Wars has better fighters then Babylon 5 in general then since their craft are on par with Minbari. Star Fury can only turn and accelerate at Gs that will not cause the pilot harm, but Star Wars is not limited to that.

Where is it stated that Minbari fighter or even most White Star have the stealth system?

X-wings may have inertial dampeners, but that doesn't change the fact that none of their craft have been shown to be faster or as maneuverable as a SF.

Whitestars do not appear to have stealth technology. I never claimed that they did. After Sheridan takes over, a Minbari warship arrives at B5 and tries to start a war by behaving in a warlike manner (attack vector, launching fighters towards B5) but they turn off their stealth technology off on their fighters because they want the B5 starfuries to fire first. Minbari fighters have stealth technology.

t's not very hard to hit a large number of things that are grouped very close together when you are firing a bleep load of shots, and the things make no effort to evade.

For all their faults TIE fighters are not Leo from Gundam Wing. They do not blow up simply because the guy nearest to them was blown up. THose missiles are junk.

The same faults of these missiles could be applied to any number of SW fighters. Landpeeders, for instance, flay headfirst into the ATATs blaster fire without any attempt to evade. In every other battle, fighters only seem concerned with evading when they have someone on their tail.

The missiles are not junk. They just aren't fighters. Also, SW missiles can be confused into hitting each other by spinning your craft. Luke's craft is damaged from an explosion from a strafing run on the deathstar, even with his shields, so it is isn't outside the realm of possibility for a group of fragile TIEs to bite it from a single large explosion in their midst.

As for the Vorchan's firing a 'bleap' load of shots, Each Vorchan fired only a few volleys, and only 2-3 individual blasts missed, so it doesn't seem like they were being very inefficient there. Besides, if you want to talk about capital ships wasting their shots, you have the Imperial fleet on the other hand....much less efficient.

That assumes the target wasn't off screen.

The Vree what amounts to a shotgun, and they just started firing before the Vorlon fighters were in range.

The point was that the Vree are capable of doing a lot more with a lot less.

Try the battle of Endor, but ships are designed not to explode in the manner you describe in both universes.

You'll note that Star Wars defenses seem to be optimized for energy weapons.

SW armor is not optimized for anything. We never see a hit from a turbolaser take out a ship bigger then a fighter in the OT. I was asking for a fireball because I wanted evidence that there was any significant difference in firepower between a fighter-born blaster and a turbolaser turret. B5 ship weapons run the gambit from fighter weapons which seem capable of causing damage on a scale comparable with SW, and we also see weapons mounted on cruisers.destroyers etc which can take out other ships of comparable size in relatively short order and spectacular damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oul86hRJws&feature=fvsr

That demonstrates neither. The TL are better then what we see in the OT, but then again, nearly every piece of military technology from the EU or PT is. There is nothing in this video indicating that SW turbolasers are any better then B5 ones, except in quantity. But that doesn't really matter when you can't hit the broad side of a barn.

On another note, that Ion cannon is one of the worst weapons I have ever seen in SW.

Except AT-AT don't have turbolasers. They have medium and heavy blasters.

Why would something with a much larger reactor not be able to have much more powerful weapons?

If anything, they seem to be only marginally less powerful, but still more then capable of getting through rebel shields, while putting out a greater rate of fire with significantly better accuracy. If they can get this much performance out of mere blaster cannons, it begs the question, why don't they mount at least a few of these on their SDs? Heck, just bolting an ATAT head to the side would be an improvement.

There is the chance everything in Ep1 through 3 is just more expensive, and the OT has more powerful things.

Not much in the way of evidence either way, but PT and EU does seem to be significantly better, despite everything being presumably outdated by the time of OT. It also begs the question why the Empire never bothered to field any of their fancy toys versus the rebels on Hoth or Endor. If personal shields and automatic blaster rifles were available to the emperors finest, one would expect them to have these weapons, instead they were equipped no better then any other stormtoopers we see (with the exception of the sandtroopers on Tat, perhaps)

And the mark means nothing without a hole since the bolts them selves are explosive.

I take it you have never played with fireworks. They often leave scorch marks on bricks, but don't damage the brick.

Explosions tend not to wrap around things like that either. The flash was the primary evidence for damage, scorch mark proved that the shields were not up. You have not addressed the flash.

Not a big advantage if we go by Babylon five.

Evidence to the contrary has been shown in just about every episode in which a starfury fights other fighters. Only once has this tactic backfired when two thunderbolts collided while trying to keep up with whitestars.

Only the older models of Tie had any trouble, and TIE are comparable to X-wing in speed and agility..

The empire still fielded plenty of normal TIEs at Endor, so it is still a valid comparison. At any rate, there isn't a whole lot indicating a large improvement in performance-the reason I compared the SF to the normal instead of the interceptor is because they are both bulky. The interceptor seems to have a smaller profile and perhaps higher speed, but there isn't much evidence that they are particularly more maneuverable.

The thunderbolts are replacing the one seater versions of star fury in Babylon 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfury

I was referring to the starfury variant with a backwards-facing cockpit in addition to the forward one. They are as rare as explorer classes in the show. (only one in the entire series)

Recoil and a high rate of fire in the real world make it hard to hit your target after the first few bullets.

Why Star Wars military types tend to be such bad shots is never really explained.

I know that recoil effects accuracy. SW guns don't really seem to have much of a problem with this though. The explanation about recoil effecting Stormtrooper aim sounds like EU rationalizations for why the elite of the empire, known for their accuracy, can't hit the broad side of a barn. A far more reasonable explanation would be that they seem to favor firing from the waist.

[Lucky]

What? You have no proof of this. Evasive actions are referred to and displayed on screen repeatedly. Star wars point defense has been proven to be incredibly ineffective, while B5 point defense has been shown to be incredibly effective.

I swear either Star Fury are slugish, or the pilots want to die.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb2D331Jn7I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO00y-4v ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmp2NJz0wTo&NR=1

Numerous counterexamples have already been given. repeating disproved claims does not add to their merit, please give some actual proof that SW has better countermeasures against fighters.

I guess that is why Anakin had to scrap his plan to kill Grevous, and why all the A-wing were destroyed by the SSD.

X-wings may have inertial dampeners, but that doesn't change the fact that none of their craft have been shown to be faster or as maneuverable as a SF.

A star fury is limited by the number of Gs the pilot can take.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_g's_ ... y_blackout
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 736AAd8pyw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Hu ... of_g-force


Here we have a ship comparable to fighters if a bit slower then some top out at 21.5 gs with no problems.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWfalcaccel.html

Whitestars do not appear to have stealth technology. I never claimed that they did. After Sheridan takes over, a Minbari warship arrives at B5 and tries to start a war by behaving in a warlike manner (attack vector, launching fighters towards B5) but they turn off their stealth technology off on their fighters because they want the B5 starfuries to fire first. Minbari fighters have stealth technology.

Fighters or did the cap ship have the "stealth system"? Minbari stealth is ECM.

The same faults of these missiles could be applied to any number of SW fighters. Landpeeders, for instance, flay headfirst into the ATATs blaster fire without any attempt to evade. In every other battle, fighters only seem concerned with evading when they have someone on their tail.

Pilots being stupid in no way the craft's fault, and at no time do any Star Wars craft I know of blow up because the thing next to them was destroyed.

The missiles are not junk. They just aren't fighters. Also, SW missiles can be confused into hitting each other by spinning your craft. Luke's craft is damaged from an explosion from a strafing run on the deathstar, even with his shields, so it is isn't outside the realm of possibility for a group of fragile TIEs to bite it from a single large explosion in their midst.

The missiles blow up because the nearest missile exploded, and they just flew in slow straight lines. We can do better.

As for the Vorchan's firing a 'bleap' load of shots, Each Vorchan fired only a few volleys, and only 2-3 individual blasts missed, so it doesn't seem like they were being very inefficient there. Besides, if you want to talk about capital ships wasting their shots, you have the Imperial fleet on the other hand....much less efficient.

That isn't something to boast about as it shows that races tech to be not very good.

The point was that the Vree are capable of doing a lot more with a lot less.

The Vree design horrible ships for combat end of story.

SW armor is not optimized for anything. We never see a hit from a turbolaser take out a ship bigger then a fighter in the OT. I was asking for a fireball because I wanted evidence that there was any significant difference in firepower between a fighter-born blaster and a turbolaser turret. B5 ship weapons run the gambit from fighter weapons which seem capable of causing damage on a scale comparable with SW, and we also see weapons mounted on cruisers.destroyers etc which can take out other ships of comparable size in relatively short order and spectacular damage.

You do realize Star Destroyers have light, medium, and heavy guns, and possibly anti-fighter weapons?

That demonstrates neither. The TL are better then what we see in the OT, but then again, nearly every piece of military technology from the EU or PT is. There is nothing in this video indicating that SW turbolasers are any better then B5 ones, except in quantity. But that doesn't really matter when you can't hit the broad side of a barn.

B5 isn't better unless you are minbari or first one when it comes to hitting the target.

On another note, that Ion cannon is one of the worst weapons I have ever seen in SW.

That makes two of us, but we never see anything like it again that is not meant to target planets.

If anything, they seem to be only marginally less powerful, but still more then capable of getting through rebel shields, while putting out a greater rate of fire with significantly better accuracy. If they can get this much performance out of mere blaster cannons, it begs the question, why don't they mount at least a few of these on their SDs? Heck, just bolting an ATAT head to the side would be an improvement.

The AT-AT walked through the shield like the B-1s in ep-1.

Personally I think it's the gunner since I can't recall a gun in Star Wars that did not use a gunner.

Not much in the way of evidence either way, but PT and EU does seem to be significantly better, despite everything being presumably outdated by the time of OT. It also begs the question why the Empire never bothered to field any of their fancy toys versus the rebels on Hoth or Endor. If personal shields and automatic blaster rifles were available to the emperors finest, one would expect them to have these weapons, instead they were equipped no better then any other stormtoopers we see (with the exception of the sandtroopers on Tat, perhaps)

The Emperor's best men are Storm Troopers, and they are out fitted similarly to clone troopers.

B5 wins hands down when it tends to come to ground combat unless you're a Narn, but they are just just as bad.

Explosions tend not to wrap around things like that either. The flash was the primary evidence for damage, scorch mark proved that the shields were not up. You have not addressed the flash.

There is no proof of damage, and AT-AT armor flashes even though they are not shielded.

Evidence to the contrary has been shown in just about every episode in which a starfury fights other fighters. Only once has this tactic backfired when two thunderbolts collided while trying to keep up with whitestars.

And yet Star Fury were at best equals to Minbari fighters, and Minbari fighters are similar in capability to Star Wars fighters.

The empire still fielded plenty of normal TIEs at Endor, so it is still a valid comparison. At any rate, there isn't a whole lot indicating a large improvement in performance-the reason I compared the SF to the normal instead of the interceptor is because they are both bulky. The interceptor seems to have a smaller profile and perhaps higher speed, but there isn't much evidence that they are particularly more maneuverable.

Only one older model TIE tried to make the DS-II run.

The TIE Interceptor has more fire power, is suppose to be faster, and is more agile, and the defender is even better plus shields and a hyperdrive as I recall.

I was referring to the starfury variant with a backwards-facing cockpit in addition to the forward one. They are as rare as explorer classes in the show. (only one in the entire series)

I've never noticed it. Where does it appear?

I know that recoil effects accuracy. SW guns don't really seem to have much of a problem with this though. The explanation about recoil effecting Stormtrooper aim sounds like EU rationalizations for why the elite of the empire, known for their accuracy, can't hit the broad side of a barn. A far more reasonable explanation would be that they seem to favor firing from the waist.

Storm Troopers/Clone Troopers/Battle Droids/Alderran body guards are horrible shots for seemingly no reason. Star Wars has some of the worst ground troops in SCi-Fi.

I've compared blasters in Star Wars to smoothbore muskets.

Now that I think about it the recoil thing does show up in the old Dark Forces video game. The first shot with the Storm Trooper blaster was always spot on, but if you held down the trigger the bolts would be far less accurate.

[User1555]

I swear either Star Fury are slugish, or the pilots want to die.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb2D331Jn7I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO00y-4v ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmp2NJz0wTo&NR=1

Starfury pilots moving at lower speeds then their top observed speeds is not necessarily evidence that they are sluggish. At times, they can be seen going quite fast. Endgame pilots were obviously taking evasive maneuvers so I wouldn't call that evidence of being 'sluggish', considering how poor the quality of maneuvering we see in SW is.

I guess that is why Anakin had to scrap his plan to kill Grevous, and why all the A-wing were destroyed by the SSD.

You mean the two a-wings were all of the rebel a-wings? Were they the same two a-wings that popped the shield generator? considering that two a wings was the end result of the SSD 'intensifying forward firepower' to keep 'anything from getting through'
and managed to destroy one fighter and damage another, and that this was the biggest kind of imperial ship bar the DS in the entire OT, that doesn't really say a whole lot about their capabilities in an anti-fighter role.

Anakin and the other fighters were flying in pretty much a straight line, and lost one fighter, their maneuvering was not particularly amazing, and judging by how effective the point defense was in light of this, the point defense doesn't seem to be very accurate either.

A star fury is limited by the number of Gs the pilot can take.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_g's_ ... y_blackout
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 736AAd8pyw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Hu ... of_g-force


Here we have a ship comparable to fighters if a bit slower then some top out at 21.5 gs with no problems.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWfalcaccel.html

And yet for their inertial dampeners, SW fighters are still less agile then starfuries. The falcon is not a good comparison for the starfury at all, considering it is not a fighter.

It is stated as being the fastest-therefore we can safely say that no other vessel in the rebel fleet is faster. It is the only one of its kind , yet under-preforms when compared against whitestars in speed and maneuverability.

Fighters or did the cap ship have the "stealth system"? Minbari stealth is ECM.

Both fighters and sharlins have stealth technology. Minbari stealth is ECM that renders targeting methods besides the common eyeball useless. Considering B5 seems to have consistently better scanners and targeting computers, SW might not be able to pik up Minbari fighters either.

Pilots being stupid in no way the craft's fault, and at no time do any Star Wars craft I know of blow up because the thing next to them was destroyed.

The point was that shielded SW fighters are capable of being damaged by indirect explosions, so it stands to reason that the significantly more fragile TIEs would as well.

The missiles blow up because the nearest missile exploded, and they just flew in slow straight lines. We can do better.

The missiles flew in a straight line to their target-just like modern missiles? And that makes them less advanced? The point is that the Vorchans had no trouble hitting fast-moving targets accurately with their main guns, something that SW has not demonstrated. Only about 3 shots are seen to miss, out of all of those fired from the Vorchans. This is a point in their favor considering how inaccurate SW turbolaser fire is.

The Vree design horrible ships for combat end of story.

Size and speed comparable to the millenium falcon with far greater firepower.

You do realize Star Destroyers have light, medium, and heavy guns, and possibly anti-fighter weapons?

Weapons that they never use at any point in the OT.

B5 isn't better unless you are minbari or first one when it comes to hitting the target.

You keep on saying things like this, when all evidence points to the contrary?

The AT-AT walked through the shield like the B-1s in ep-1.

Personally I think it's the gunner since I can't recall a gun in Star Wars that did not use a gunner.

I was referring to its ability to shoot down shielded speeders. The ATAT gunners were the best demonstrated in the entire OT.

There is no proof of damage, and AT-AT armor flashes even though they are not shielded.

AT-ATs seem to be shielded. When unshielded objects get hit, we see scorching, sparks, smoke etc. This is exactly the sort of thing we saw when the falcon got hit on the ground. The flash wrapped around the lip in a manner that would be unlikely if the blast hadn't gone through the lip.

And yet Star Fury were at best equals to Minbari fighters, and Minbari fighters are similar in capability to Star Wars fighters.

Minbari fighters have stealth technology, which means they can't be detected or targeted except by eyeball, this gives them a definite edge over the starfury, but does not mean that the starfury has inferior maneuvering. Considering how Darth Vader relies on his targeting computer so much, I'm curious how you would expect him to shoot down a minbari fighter.

I've never noticed it. Where does it appear?

A Voice in the Wilderness Part II

There are three variants shown in the series, plus the thunderbolt as well as construction ships based off of the SF frame. The stealth and two-seater variants are pretty rare though, the two seater is only seen in one episode, and the stealth variants seem to be unique to Black Omega squadron.

Storm Troopers/Clone Troopers/Battle Droids/Alderran body guards are horrible shots for seemingly no reason. Star Wars has some of the worst ground troops in SCi-Fi.

I've compared blasters in Star Wars to smoothbore muskets.

Now that I think about it the recoil thing does show up in the old Dark Forces video game. The first shot with the Storm Trooper blaster was always spot on, but if you held down the trigger the bolts would be far less accurate.

I remember playing Jedi Academy, and the E-11 had an automatic fire setting that sprayed shots everywhere. In the movies though, Stormtroopers seem to miss even though they aren't firing on automatic.

[Lucky]

Starfury pilots moving at lower speeds then their top observed speeds is not necessarily evidence that they are sluggish. At times, they can be seen going quite fast. Endgame pilots were obviously taking evasive maneuvers so I wouldn't call that evidence of being 'sluggish', considering how poor the quality of maneuvering we see in SW is.

The sluggishness is because of the Star Fury design, and tech limitation.

Provide proof of the poor the quality of maneuvering we see in SW is. The closer a target is to the barrel the harder it is to shoot.

You mean the two a-wings were all of the rebel a-wings? Were they the same two a-wings that popped the shield generator? considering that two a wings was the end result of the SSD 'intensifying forward firepower' to keep 'anything from getting through'

Watch the battle again. The lone SSD that had been fighting the entire battle had just suddenly had the entire rebel fleet gang up on it, and only the bridge deflector shield went down. Capital ships in Star Wars target the bridge just like fighters.

and managed to destroy one fighter and damage another, and that this was the biggest kind of imperial ship bar the DS in the entire OT, that doesn't really say a whole lot about their capabilities in an anti-fighter role.

Do you honestly think the two A-wing were the only things attacking the SSD?

Anakin and the other fighters were flying in pretty much a straight line, and lost one fighter, their maneuvering was not particularly amazing, and judging by how effective the point defense was in light of this, the point defense doesn't seem to be very accurate either.

A side from the fact B-1s were doing the shooting, and they even say they are programed to be bad shots, the Y-wings were almost scraping the Malevolence's hull. The guns could not get good shots, and that has nothing to do with Star Wars since it happens in B5 as well.

You do realize that was a bombing run right?

And yet for their inertial dampeners, SW fighters are still less agile then starfuries. The falcon is not a good comparison for the starfury at all, considering it is not a fighter.

Your half right. The Falcon is a worn out beat up at times barely working out dated craft low end fighters out fly in every way, and literally fly circle around. I was comparing an old barely working Star warts rust bucket to a top of the line Babylon 5 fighter, and the rust bucket out performs the fighter.

You have yet to prove Star Wars fighters are less agile to Star Fury.

It is stated as being the fastest-therefore we can safely say that no other vessel in the rebel fleet is faster. It is the only one of its kind , yet under-preforms when compared against whitestars in speed and maneuverability.

The Falcon isn't a one of a kind, and it doesn't work very well. It just has a very good hyper-drive, and is not designed to be used the way it often is. The Falcon isn't a war ship, and is not designed to be used as a fighter like it is.

Both fighters and sharlins have stealth technology. Minbari stealth is ECM that renders targeting methods besides the common eyeball useless. Considering B5 seems to have consistently better scanners and targeting computers, SW might not be able to pik up Minbari fighters either.

A side from you not providing proof fighters have the ECM capability, Star Wars normally uses the mark one eye ball as it's targeting system so I guess Minbari ECM will be useless.^_^

The point was that shielded SW fighters are capable of being damaged by indirect explosions, so it stands to reason that the significantly more fragile TIEs would as well.

Prove it.

The missiles flew in a straight line to their target-just like modern missiles?

Since when do modern missiles just fly in a straight line?

And that makes them less advanced?

Humans for a long time have been able to make remote control, and even AI controled weapons.

The point is that the Vorchans had no trouble hitting fast-moving targets accurately with their main guns, something that SW has not demonstrated.

Remember Porkins man.

Those Vorchan are shooting at slow moving things that are coming at them, and have a very predictable flight path. It would be very pathetic if they couldn't do something a Star Wars craft could do.

Only about 3 shots are seen to miss, out of all of those fired from the Vorchans. This is a point in their favor considering how inaccurate SW turbolaser fire is.

And there are far less shots then missiles.

Size and speed comparable to the millenium falcon with far greater firepower.

The problem is the Falcon isn't designed for combat. The Falcon is basically a flying winabago with minimal defenses, and is well past it's prime.

The Vree ships on the other are made for combat, and only have one gun that shoots in one direction, and in order to use the gun you have to expose the largest cross section of the ship to enemy fire.

Weapons that they never use at any point in the OT.

They did, but didn't bother to name them until years later.

You keep on saying things like this, when all evidence points to the contrary?

You keep saying things like this, but never back it with evidence like I do. How am I suppose to take you seriously?

I was referring to its ability to shoot down shielded speeders. The ATAT gunners were the best demonstrated in the entire OT.

I don't recall the Rebels having shielded speeders.

Blasters and similar weapons do act like flack.

AT-ATs seem to be shielded. When unshielded objects get hit, we see scorching, sparks, smoke etc. This is exactly the sort of thing we saw when the falcon got hit on the ground. The flash wrapped around the lip in a manner that would be unlikely if the blast hadn't gone through the lip.

And that contradicts what we are told in every case, or do you think characters can't read?

Minbari fighters have stealth technology, which means they can't be detected or targeted except by eyeball, this gives them a definite edge over the starfury, but does not mean that the starfury has inferior maneuvering. Considering how Darth Vader relies on his targeting computer so much, I'm curious how you would expect him to shoot down a minbari fighter.

You have yet to shown Minari have ECM systems, and by you reasoning Stars Wars forces will have the same advantage as the Minbari.. Star wars has ECM to you know.

It's rather odd the Star Fury had no trouble targeting any of the first ones.

I remember playing Jedi Academy, and the E-11 had an automatic fire setting that sprayed shots everywhere. In the movies though, Stormtroopers seem to miss even though they aren't firing on automatic.

The recoil and full auto certainly don't help the Storm troopers hit their targets.

I'm not sure any of the heros hold the E-11 the same way Storm Troopers do?

[User1555]

The sluggishness is because of the Star Fury design, and tech limitation.

Provide proof of the poor the quality of maneuvering we see in SW is. The closer a target is to the barrel the harder it is to shoot.

They have poor maneuverability compared to starfuries.

Watch the battle again. The lone SSD that had been fighting the entire battle had just suddenly had the entire rebel fleet gang up on it, and only the bridge deflector shield went down. Capital ships in Star Wars target the bridge just like fighters.

The bridge deflector shields were taken out by a couple of shots from a pair of a-wings. We never see any turbolasers hit the bridge, or even miss it, so that other claim is completely unfounded.

A side from the fact B-1s were doing the shooting, and they even say they are programed to be bad shots, the Y-wings were almost scraping the Malevolence's hull. The guns could not get good shots, and that has nothing to do with Star Wars since it happens in B5 as well.

You do realize that was a bombing run right?

Did you miss the part where they were flying in a straight line right past the guns?

Do you honestly think the two A-wing were the only things attacking the SSD?

I guess that is why Anakin had to scrap his plan to kill Grevous, and why all the A-wing were destroyed by the SSD.

You claimed that all of the a-wings were destroyed by the SSD as proof of the the effectiveness of the SSDs anti-fighter capabilities. Note that the end result of the admiral ordering them to do everything in their power to keep anything from getting through was 2 blown up a-wings and one destroyed SSD. Only two destroyed fighters on screen is hardly a good example for good point defense considering the effectiveness of Omega classes vs starfuries.

Your half right. The Falcon is a worn out beat up at times barely working out dated craft low end fighters out fly in every way, and literally fly circle around. I was comparing an old barely working Star warts rust bucket to a top of the line Babylon 5 fighter, and the rust bucket out performs the fighter.

You have yet to prove Star Wars fighters are less agile to Star Fury.

It's stated right on screen that the Falcon is the fastest ship in the fleet. Starfuries 180 maneuver aloneis plenty of evidence for superiority in agility.

A side from you not providing proof fighters have the ECM capability, Star Wars normally uses the mark one eye ball as it's targeting system so I guess Minbari ECM will be useless.^_^

The stealth system is mentioned numerous times in the series, as well as its ability to keep earth ships from locking on. X-wings and TIEs have both been show to use targeting computers, and the Star destroyers used scanners on thew life pods in 4.

Since when do modern missiles just fly in a straight line?

When the target is in a straight line. At any rate, they weren't doing evasive maneuvers significant enough at endor when the fighters closed on each other to be effective in this scenario.

Humans for a long time have been able to make remote control, and even AI controled weapons.

We actually don't use AI weapons, sorry to burst your bubble. Predator drones and bomb disposal robots are both remote. We don't know if the missiles were guided, remote, AI, or dumbfired because they never reached their target because they were blown up by the main guns. Anything you say to the contrary is unfounded. The centauri on the other hand, demonstrated the ability to use long range homing mines.

Remember Porkins man.

Those Vorchan are shooting at slow moving things that are coming at them, and have a very predictable flight path. It would be very pathetic if they couldn't do something a Star Wars craft could do.

The Vorchans scored more direct hits in that battle on missiles traveling at speeds comparable to 'slow moving x-wings' then we see in any battle in the OT in the space of a short amount of time. I really don't know what you expect from the missiles, considering at no point do we see missiles make evasive maneuvers in either trilogy.

And there are far less shots then missiles.

At least some centauri weapons are designed to explode on contact rather then cut like many other races weapons. This was part of the evidence that was used in order to incriminate the centauri in season 5. Considering the main guns of the Primus do not have this effect, it is reasonable to assume that the Vorchans are armed with these weapons.

The problem is the Falcon isn't designed for combat. The Falcon is basically a flying winabago with minimal defenses, and is well past it's prime.

The Vree ships on the other are made for combat, and only have one gun that shoots in one direction, and in order to use the gun you have to expose the largest cross section of the ship to enemy fire.

The falcon is better armed, faster, and better armed then any ship of comparable size in the OT. Unless you think that a Lambda could take it on.

Vree saucers also expose an amount of hull comparable to the falcon when flying towards you. They only need to orient the ship towards you in order to fire, and they don't seem to have any problem orienting their ships in order to do this, otherwise one would expect them to stay still and bombard from a distance like SDs do.

They did, but didn't bother to name them until years later.

More expanded universe stuff? The SDs are never shown to be firing anything other then turbolasers at any time.

You keep saying things like this, but never back it with evidence like I do. How am I suppose to take you seriously?

What evidence? You've seen at least most of the same videos as I have, and have even posted B5 videos that contradict your claims before. Making claims like 'starfuries are sluggish' 'the ability to turn around in flight to fire behind you isn't helpful' and 'b5 fighter defense has no edge over sw fighter defense' when examples have been provided by both me and you to the contrary. Your evidence in favor of SW has been largely EU items that are unsupported on screen.

I don't recall the Rebels having shielded speeders.

Blasters and similar weapons do act like flack.

We see flashes around the speeders similar to the shield effect from the cockpits when they are under fire from the ATATs. It's safe to say that they were shielded.

Blasters do NOT act like flak. Point to the part in the series where we see bolts exploding and fragmenting without hitting an object or shielding. This sounds like you made it up.

And that contradicts what we are told in every case, or do you think characters can't read?

Told? we are told that the ATATs have armor too thick for their blasters. We aren't told if they are shielded. I don't remember anyone saying anything that indicated the shields were up before Han got on, and I don't recall any characters reading anything relating to either of these cases at any point in the series.

The recoil and full auto certainly don't help the Storm troopers hit their targets.

I'm not sure any of the heros hold the E-11 the same way Storm Troopers do?

Leia fires from the hip on at least one point, and Luke/han fire them like a pistol, and have no trouble with recoil or accuracy.

[Lucky]

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They have poor maneuverability compared to starfuries.

Prove it.

Playing ball turret is not a sign of good maneuverability. It's just flying in a straight line.

The bridge deflector shields were taken out by a couple of shots from a pair of a-wings. We never see any turbolasers hit the bridge, or even miss it, so that other claim is completely unfounded.

After prolonged combat with other ships, and we see that. The A-Wing was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Did you miss the part where they were flying in a straight line right past the guns?

You really don't understand what bombers have to often do during bombing runs, and Y-wings are bombers, not fighters.

You claimed that all of the a-wings were destroyed by the SSD as proof of the the effectiveness of the SSDs anti-fighter capabilities. Note that the end result of the admiral ordering them to do everything in their power to keep anything from getting through was 2 blown up a-wings and one destroyed SSD. Only two destroyed fighters on screen is hardly a good example for good point defense considering the effectiveness of Omega classes vs starfuries.

Do you understand the SSD was 8 to 19 kilometers long. It's about the size of Babylon 5, and when the A-wing took out the shield it was also under attack from every other rebel ship in range. Do you really expect to see every hit shown on screen?

It's stated right on screen that the Falcon is the fastest ship in the fleet.

When?

What context?

Starfuries 180 maneuver aloneis plenty of evidence for superiority in agility.

Porkins Ep-4

When acting as a ball turret a star fury can't maneuver.

The stealth system is mentioned numerous times in the series, as well as its ability to keep earth ships from locking on.

Every time I recall ECM involved a Minbari cap ship.

X-wings and TIEs have both been show to use targeting computers, and the Star destroyers used scanners on thew life pods in 4.

Strange those scanners were unjamable, and the Rebels only used theirs to target the vent.

There are a number of things they could have looked for on the escape pod in Ep-4.

When the target is in a straight line. At any rate, they weren't doing evasive maneuvers significant enough at endor when the fighters closed on each other to be effective in this scenario.

Endor? What did I say that had anything to do with Star wars?

Are you tell me we can't make missiles that will not explode just because their buddies were blown up by AA?

We actually don't use AI weapons, sorry to burst your bubble.

It's easy for us to make things that avoid obstacles like blobs of slow moving plasma.

We don't know if the missiles were guided, remote, AI, or dumbfired because they never reached their target because they were blown up by the main guns. Anything you say to the contrary is unfounded. The centauri on the other hand, demonstrated the ability to use long range homing mines.

The only thing that makes sense is dumb fire since the missiles made no attempt to avoid the slow moving AA.

The Vorchans scored more direct hits in that battle on missiles traveling at speeds comparable to 'slow moving x-wings' then we see in any battle in the OT in the space of a short amount of time. I really don't know what you expect from the missiles, considering at no point do we see missiles make evasive maneuvers in either trilogy.

And how do you know this? Eyeballing it the missiles look slower.

The X-wings won't just fly into the AA like a Star fury pilot or those missiles.

At least some centauri weapons are designed to explode on contact rather then cut like many other races weapons. This was part of the evidence that was used in order to incriminate the centauri in season 5. Considering the main guns of the Primus do not have this effect, it is reasonable to assume that the Vorchans are armed with these weapons.

They act like Turbolasers, neat

The falcon is better armed, faster, and better armed then any ship of comparable size in the OT. Unless you think that a Lambda could take it on.

The Lambda at least should be able to out do the Falcon in combat since the Lambda is an armed military craft.

Vree saucers also expose an amount of hull comparable to the falcon when flying towards you. They only need to orient the ship towards you in order to fire, and they don't seem to have any problem orienting their ships in order to do this, otherwise one would expect them to stay still and bombard from a distance like SDs do.

They still have to expose their largest cross section to attack. which is bad, and that has nothing to do with Star Wars.

We need a thread where we just pick apart ship designs.

More expanded universe stuff? The SDs are never shown to be firing anything other then turbolasers at any time.

T-canon isn't the EU.

What evidence? You've seen at least most of the same videos as I have, and have even posted B5 videos that contradict your claims before. Making claims like 'starfuries are sluggish' 'the ability to turn around in flight to fire behind you isn't helpful' and 'b5 fighter defense has no edge over sw fighter defense' when examples have been provided by both me and you to the contrary. Your evidence in favor of SW has been largely EU items that are unsupported on screen.

I have yet to see something in Babylon 5 that isn't done in Star Wars. Neither side has any real advantage when it comes to fighters.

Star Fury do to limitation in technology can not match the fighters in Star Wars.

We see flashes around the speeders similar to the shield effect from the cockpits when they are under fire from the ATATs. It's safe to say that they were shielded.

I've never seen what you are talking about.

Blasters do NOT act like flak. Point to the part in the series where we see bolts exploding and fragmenting without hitting an object or shielding. This sounds like you made it up.

You see it in TESB when the Falcon is escaping the star destroyers, and proton cannons act the same way. Why the blots explode is anyone's guess.

Told? we are told that the ATATs have armor too thick for their blasters. We aren't told if they are shielded. I don't remember anyone saying anything that indicated the shields were up before Han got on, and I don't recall any characters reading anything relating to either of these cases at any point in the series.

So AT-AT have shields so weak that they don't matter?

Leia fires from the hip on at least one point, and Luke/han fire them like a pistol, and have no trouble with recoil or accuracy.

Well Luke did say you can't see out of the helmet.