The Invasion of the b 5 Galaxy

[Lucky]

I'm fairly certain that Londo is talking about the Earth Minbari war in general, not about Sheridans destruction of the Black Star. I am fairly certain that the scene where he blows up the Black Star was from a much earlier episode.

The only scene that I know of that shows the Black Star's destruction is in "In The Beginning", and that is Lando telling the story to little kids.

I can't believe you are arguing that B5 has worse point defense than SW. It's true that PD in B5 is usually reserved for incoming capital ship fire instead of fighters, presumably because capital ship fire can make short work of ships even as big as B5 itself. Note what happened when the fire from the centauri ship got through B5s interceptors. Also note how long much sustained fire it took for them to breach b5s interceptors. We have never seen SW point defense display countermeasures of any kind against projectiles, and when they use it against fighters, they tend to miss, a lot.

I can't remember most races even having anti-fighter weapons, and you will remember that fighters in B5 take down war ships on their own.

Star Wars has shields that stop fighters, missles, and energy blasts normally, and they have anti-fighter weapons.

Where is your proof that Babylon 5 ships have better point defense then Star Wars ships?

I find it interesting that SW ships are allowed to have 'super alloys' except where on-screen evidence shows otherwise. Seems an awful lot like cherry-picking examples for SW armor strength from the EU when visuals seem to indicate otherwise. There is no reason to believe that Star Destroyer armor is any stronger then B5, otherwise, how could they lose their bridges to collisions with fighters and asteroids?

Caon is canon. I not even bringing up the crazy stuff. All I've done is bring up G- canon, and a quote from c-canon that says the same thing.

I seem to recall being the one to say that ramming is the best bet Babylon 5 powers have. Star Wars armor seems optimized for energy weapons.

Why can stormtroopers on tatooine damage the millennium falcon's armor with infantry blasters?

This I want proof of.

We see blasters/turblolasers used on a wide range of targets from snow to 'durasteel' but nowhere do we get any hint that their armor is particularly tough. The only counterexample is the AT-AT

So in order to be impressive Star wars things need to be at least the size of an AT-AT?

I can't believe you are actually proposing that the ability to turn on a dime is a detriment to a fighter.

An ability often not used, and something that does not make someone harder to hit. Since fighter as good or better don't seem to be able to move like Star fury it can't be a major advantage like you make it out to be.

Why on earth would they be using armor materials weaker then what we have today? Steel does not equal iron in terms of melting point or specific heat. It could be some form of alloy that has a high melting point, or the armor could not include iron at all. Iridium or something.

The thickness of the BEAMs were taken from a screen cap. The thickness of the ARMOR was taken from a naval ship. Just because boats here on earth use armor of a specific thickness, does not mean that space warships use the same thickness armor.

What ever they use Star Fury chew through it easily. One strafe and the hull integrity was down 20%, and 200 megawatt pulse cannons are considered credible threats to ships.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoCvgAA ... re=related

As am I. We never see the destructive power of these turbolasers. Unless they are the ones that shot down Porkins and that A-wing in jedi. In which case they aren't really much more powerful then the blasters/turbolasers the fighters use.

So you use megatons when all you need is mega-joules? This is a case where the dial a yield argument makes sense.

What makes you think those weren't anti-fight weapons shooting at the A-wings?

You are using EU stuff to prop up firepower estimates for SW ships, while denying the same of B5. I agree that the B5 EU is stupid, but that doesn't mean it is any lower canon or any less stupid then the SW EU you are drawing on. Lets keep this based upon on-screen evidence please? Before stupid stuff like the suncrusher and primordial battlecrabs start to leak in.

I'm using the C-level canon to prop up G level canon. Movie novelizations are G level just like the scripts and movies.

[Admiral Breetai]

in a new hope black burns where seen on the falcons armor IIRC and same goes for ESTB when it held off troops briefly

and I doubt highly that the average human in the SWU is as strong as a mid tier comic book brick and thus has a super strong wrist able to handle a multi megaton recoil from blasters..thus Sw ships have to be damaged by far less then whats been stated in the EU

the mere fact that fighter weaponry seems only capable of blowing the top of R2's head off and yet is able to pucnture the hull of the DSI and II and score lethal damage to storm troopers inside as well as cause fire to ignite on the surface in one scene..ROTJ suggests again a much less severe fire power

[Lucky]

seeing what Shadow ships did to a planet in one ep yeah the FO's do EA counter by slopping a but load of armor onto their guys

Is this your entire response. It looks like there are a lot of words missing.

The Shadows grow their ships under ground on places like Mars. I think it is how that ship is constructed rather then what it is made of.

well I suppose then he'll be starving his people

That's going to go over real well with a rebellion already in full swing. ^_^

Let's just assume the Emperor just magically has the funds.

the weakest younger races employ six hundred megaton mines and while these are ship killers they aren't fleet killers and

I thought those were antimatter mining charges.

They are able to damage if not destroy first ones ships at a distance, and that means the ships were hit with less then 250-300 megatons.

They wouldn't be fleet killers if only because the ships should be spread out.

the Drazi are by no means a major power

They seem to be treated as a note worthy power for some reason.

I've seen Vorchans come out of jumpsace and carve a G'quan in half turn on its tail and run back into a jump before the G'quan can get any word out beyond "oh shi*static*

You wouldn't happen to know what episode would you? I only remember a Shadow ship doing something like that.

EA ships have decent accuracy some of them have even managed to take out whitestars mid blitz

You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83U5Oupj ... 2-2r-14-HM

the EA iirc control more then that the largest non FO power was the Centuari at they're prime which was something like three or hour hundred systems...they've declined considerably but not so much so..that they'd be a dozen system power

The EA controls about 14 systems as of about 2259.

EA major advantage is in industrial supremacy every one crapped themselves at how fast they recovered from the Dilgar EM and Civil wars

Logically the Empire should be able to match if not surpass the younger races at least.

bio armored Mon Cals with gravitic shields? the hull would adapt to TL fire and the shields would minimize the amount of energy that hits said hull..their own TL's backed up by beam weaponry?

I'm not sure anything in Babylon 5 would be a real improvement over what's al;ready there in Star Wars just counting the movies.

The ship would somehow have all the high end force powers, and wield a light saber somehow.^_^

[Lucky]

in a new hope black burns where seen on the falcons armor IIRC and same goes for ESTB when it held off troops briefly

That was purely cosmetic.

and I doubt highly that the average human in the SWU is as strong as a mid tier comic book brick and thus has a super strong wrist able to handle a multi megaton recoil from blasters..thus Sw ships have to be damaged by far less then whats been stated in the EU

I'm not really sure why blasters have much recoil at all.

the mere fact that fighter weaponry seems only capable of blowing the top of R2's head off and yet is able to pucnture the hull of the DSI and II and score lethal damage to storm troopers inside as well as cause fire to ignite on the surface in one scene..ROTJ suggests again a much less severe fire power

That was caused by hitting things that would go boom for one reason or another as I recall. Luke wasn't shooting at random. It's kind of like exploding consoles in Star Trek.

[User1555]

I can't remember most races even having anti-fighter weapons, and you will remember that fighters in B5 take down war ships on their own.

Star Wars has shields that stop fighters, missles, and energy blasts normally, and they have anti-fighter weapons.

Where is your proof that Babylon 5 ships have better point defense then Star Wars ships?

An ability often not used, and something that does not make someone harder to hit. Since fighter as good or better don't seem to be able to move like Star fury it can't be a major advantage like you make it out to be.

What ever they use Star Fury chew through it easily. One strafe and the hull integrity was down 20%, and 200 megawatt pulse cannons are considered credible threats to ships.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoCvgAA ... re=related

Funny you should post that battle of all things, considering it shows point defense blowing apart fighters and pulse weapon alike with far greater reliability and frequency then I can recall in any particular SW battle. It also shows the use of the hairpin turn-which,. I would also point out that they only time in the entire series that we see a starfury perform that maneuver and STILL be destroyed was when two thunderbolts collided after trying to perform the maneuver while keeping pace with white stars. The fact that you are still trying to argue that the ability to turn and fire on a pursuer in the manner that starfuries can is a DETRIMENT is baffling. It sure would have helped all those poor rebels that got shot apart by Vader at yavin. The fact that you are calling into question the B5 point defense in favor of SW PD is also baffling, considering the only SW vehicles with any displayed competence in this area are the millennium falcon and the AT-AT. Vree, Centauri, and especially Human ships have all displayed themselves quite capable of tracking and destroying small targets.

There is no indication that star wars shields are particularly strong, considering there is no visual difference between a SW ship with shields and without, and neither do they seem to offer much in the way of protection- a single strafing run from an X-wing is able to get through the death stars shields and send stormtroopers inside sprawling, and fighters are capable of taking out the SSDs shield generator with relative ease, rendering the entire ship vulnerable to a bridge hit.


Meanwhile, Omega classes have been shown to take massive amounts of punishment to the 'head' section as well as the rotating body and keep on going. I could imagine a 'direct hit' to the relatively weak 'neck' could be more serious. I can't speak for the firepower figures, but considering you have already agreed that at least SW fighters are made from similar materials to their B5 counterparts.....but interestingly, yet SW fighter weapons don't appear to display firepower much higher versus other SW fighters then starfuries do towards other B5 fighters.- b5 fighters explode into shrapnel and molten metal/sparks, and x-wings explode into a fireball and bits of shrapnel. We have plenty of evidence for what both starfuries and x-wings are capable of versus unshielded targets, and there seems to be little difference in the destruction they can cause. Esp considering how ineffective SW shields seem to be, particularly

This I want proof of.

where the OT is concerned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwevTdKL-tk
1:12 a blaster bolt leaves a small crater in the hull. Blink and you'll miss it, but it's there.

The only scene that I know of that shows the Black Star's destruction is in "In The Beginning", and that is Lando telling the story to little kids.

You may be right, I don't remember that scene in any of the normal episodes. However there is nothing in the context that indicated that the flashback was from Londo's memory instead of the actual battle.[

quote="Lucky"]So you use megatons when all you need is mega-joules? This is a case where the dial a yield argument makes sense.

What makes you think those weren't anti-fight weapons shooting at the A-wings?[/quote]

We only ever see Imperial capital ships firing two kinds of weapon versus fighters: two-barreled turbolaser turrets, and a long-barreled black gun that shoot out of a firing port. Both of them fire the same green bolts. During the battle, an imperial officer refers to their defenses as 'tubolasers'. The officer himself says that the fighters are too small to hit. The same bolts are used every time we see any star destroyer fire. There is no reason to think that the turbolasers have variable power settings when the only times in all of the movies in which variable settings are used is the stun setting on stormtrooper blasters in 4, and the AT-AT in 5.

Caon is canon. I not even bringing up the crazy stuff. All I've done is bring up G- canon, and a quote from c-canon that says the same thing.

I seem to recall being the one to say that ramming is the best bet Babylon 5 powers have. Star Wars armor seems optimized for energy weapons.

I'm using the C-level canon to prop up G level canon. Movie novelizations are G level just like the scripts and movies.

And yet the books that were outlined and approved by JMS are not on a similar level of canon? We have to draw the line somewhere, and you decided to draw the line at B5 literature, so why is SW literature still open?

I don't know what makes you think that imperial turbolasers (or at least the green ones) are so much more powerful then B5 weapons which routinely cut other ships in half, when turbolasers are only shown to destroy fighters on screen.

[Admiral Breetai]

I also wouldn't use the fall of the blackstar as proof of B5 armor being trash seeing as the minbari literally have the shittiest armor in the series IIRC

[Lucky]

Funny you should post that battle of all things, considering it shows point defense blowing apart fighters and pulse weapon alike with far greater reliability and frequency then I can recall in any particular SW battle.

It looks like a clone war era battle to me.

If what you claim is true then there should be no fighters in Babylon %.

It also shows the use of the hairpin turn-which,. I would also point out that they only time in the entire series that we see a starfury perform that maneuver and STILL be destroyed was when two thunderbolts collided after trying to perform the maneuver while keeping pace with white stars. The fact that you are still trying to argue that the ability to turn and fire on a pursuer in the manner that starfuries can is a DETRIMENT is baffling.

Since I never maid that claim...

What I said was not a huge advantage since not all fighters use it.

It sure would have helped all those poor rebels that got shot apart by Vader at yavin.

I doubt it would have helped since the rebels were just to incompetent to do things they could have done in canon to deal with Vader.

The fact that you are calling into question the B5 point defense in favor of SW PD is also baffling, considering the only SW vehicles with any displayed competence in this area are the millennium falcon and the AT-AT.

I'm just saying they are par since they use the same tactics that only work if point defense is far below 100%.

You for got the SSD which was taking on a fleet and fighters. You will also notice that fighters explode when they hit shields.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
I'd like to see a Star fury try the DS-II run.

Vree, Centauri, and especially Human ships have all displayed themselves quite capable of tracking and destroying small targets.

Humans I'll except as having good point defense even if it over heats very quickly.

Minbari are okay.

Centauri can't even hit a Narn heavy cruiser, or Babylon 5 consistently, and only tag fighters out of dumb luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

Where are you getting the idea the Vree have any point defense at all?

and especially Human ships have all displayed themselves quite capable of tracking and destroying small targets.

The the humans are the exception, and not the rule. There point defense also over heats very quickly.

There is no indication that star wars shields are particularly strong, considering there is no visual difference between a SW ship with shields and without, and neither do they seem to offer much in the way of protection- a single strafing run from an X-wing is able to get through the death stars shields and send stormtroopers inside sprawling, and fighters are capable of taking out the SSDs shield generator with relative ease, rendering the entire ship vulnerable to a bridge hit.

The first death star was as stated not designed to defend against fighters, and had very unique shields for the setting. Fighters normally explode if they hit shields. as shown at the battle of endor.

Episode I showed that some shields can take more damage then others. The destroyer droids had shield the N-1 could easily shoot through, but the N-1 had shields that could take direct hits from vulture droids.

The X-wings were causing only minor damage

The SSD had a fleet firing on it, and that was after having already been in combat.

Do you realize the difference between megawatts and terajoules?

where the OT is concerned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwevTdKL-tk
1:12 a blaster bolt leaves a small crater in the hull. Blink and you'll miss it, but it's there.

That actually looks like a shield flare to me ever time I watch it. It's just weird, and I can't pause on the frame.

You may be right, I don't remember that scene in any of the normal episodes. However there is nothing in the context that indicated that the flashback was from Londo's memory instead of the actual battle.

Except for the fact the movie is him telling a story to little kids. There is no reason to think it is 100% accurate since it contradicts the guy who was there, and did it.

We only ever see Imperial capital ships firing two kinds of weapon versus fighters: two-barreled turbolaser turrets, and a long-barreled black gun that shoot out of a firing port. Both of them fire the same green bolts. During the battle, an imperial officer refers to their defenses as 'tubolasers'. The officer himself says that the fighters are too small to hit. The same bolts are used every time we see any star destroyer fire. There is no reason to think that the turbolasers have variable power settings when the only times in all of the movies in which variable settings are used is the stun setting on stormtrooper blasters in 4, and the AT-AT in 5.

It's canon they don't always fire their turbolasers at full power as of the destroy the malevolence trilogy.

And yet the books that were outlined and approved by JMS are not on a similar level of canon? We have to draw the line somewhere, and you decided to draw the line at B5 literature, so why is SW literature still open?

This is the EU were battle crabs can do things like cut planets in half, right?

Just because something is official or canon doesn't mean it does not contradict canon. You'll notice that the Episode-II and III incredible cross sections are laughed at here even though they are "canon".

I don't know what makes you think that imperial turbolasers (or at least the green ones) are so much more powerful then B5 weapons which routinely cut other ships in half, when turbolasers are only shown to destroy fighters on screen.

I actually don't think there is that big a differences in fire power now that I've been taking a closer look. It's the shields that would make a difference, and possibly weird armor for Star Wars side.

B5 anti-capital ship weapons seem to range from mega joule to low peta joule weapons normally for the young races like humans.

Star Wars seems to use weapons in the tera joule to peta joule range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
1 ton bomb(a 4.184 gigajoule release of energy or so they claim)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYVMXYYAp4

[Lucky]

I also wouldn't use the fall of the blackstar as proof of B5 armor being trash seeing as the minbari literally have the shittiest armor in the series IIRC

who does that?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

This is the EU were battle crabs can do things like cut planets in half, right?

Just because something is official or canon doesn't mean it does not contradict canon. You'll notice that the Episode-II and III incredible cross sections are laughed at here even though they are "canon".

While what you say about the ICS is true the problem with them is that they try to force us to accept that what we see on screen are 200 gigatons ect.

B5 EU avoids that contradiction by clearly pointing out that the ships the shadows use in the wars with the younger races were essentially fast grown babies with younger race members as CPU's only a tiny fraction as powerful as the primordial ships that are piloted by the shadows themselves.

In the early days the first ones even had a time war on a galactic scale that got so bad that reality itself started to collapse and the race the "first one" came from had to make themselves part of space time to prevent it and further time travel, that is why it can only now be done through rifts.#

Addendum: Uncertain Chronologies

The following events happened prior to or during the departure
of the other first ones, but their exact sequence cannot be
determined from the available evidence.
The Jump Gate Network Is Constructed
While the earliest known jump gates date to only around
20,000 bz (Before Z’ha’dum), it is virtually certain that there
was an earlier network of gates. While all the First Ones
developed the technology to navigate hyperspace without the
use of beacons, the beacon system and jump gates are simply
easier and more efficient for most purposes. I surmise the
Vorlons began constructing gates early in their civilisation’s
lifetime, and the gate network discovered by the Minbari was
put in place during the Vigil.

The Time War

Time travel worked differently in the early galaxy. At
some point, the technique of manipulating time fields was
discovered, and a time war began – probably triggered by an
attempt to undo the summoning of the Thirdspace invaders.
As causality began to collapse, one of the First One races
sacrificed themselves by enveloping themselves in a massive
time field and becoming one with the space-time continuum.
While locked within the time field, they could block random
alterations to the flow of history and prevent reality from
fracturing. Their time field was incomplete, however – there
are gaps in it, such as the gap located in the Episilon Eridani
system which was used to abduct Babylon 4.
As the time field is a local (though galaxy-wide) phenomenon,
the commonly accepted rules of time travel do not apply
beyond the Rim or in other galaxies, although it is likely these
regions have their own limits or customs regarding editing the
past. The community of races beyond the Rim may transcend
time, existing simulataneously throughout the lifespan of this
universe.

Life Is Re-seeded

Many of the worlds of the galaxy were rendered lifeless by the
wars of the First Ones. The Vorlons created an artificial race
called the Gardeners to plant life on these ruined planets.
The long task of the Gardeners began at some point after the
wars, but early in the Vigil.

Vorlon Total Consciousness Achieved

The Vorlons integrated telepathic technology into themselves
during their transition into a Fourth Age race, but they did
not achieve a full-fledged group consciousness until after the
other races had departed the galaxy and the Vorlons had no
one to talk to except themselves.

[User1555]

It looks like a clone war era battle to me.

If what you claim is true then there should be no fighters in Babylon %.

They better fighters and field them in greater numbers then say, the rebels ever could. They still die like flies, but as has been pointed out, by you, those that get through can deal considerable damage to enemy ships. And as I said, only the Vree, centauri, and humans show considerable point defense, the rest of the races rely on fighters to fill that gap.

Humans I'll except as having good point defense even if it over heats very quickly.

Minbari are okay.

Centauri can't even hit a Narn heavy cruiser, or Babylon 5 consistently, and only tag fighters out of dumb luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

Where are you getting the idea the Vree have any point defense at all?

Centauri vorchans can use their main guns to knock out drazi missiles at range. considering the speed these missiles are seen to be traveling at, it's a fair assumption that any fighter attacking a vorchan from the front would have a hard time reaching engagement range, be it B5 or SW. The fire from the Primus was being shot down by interceptor fire before it could hit either, which actually speaks to the quality of human point defense, but says nothing about centauri accuracy.

Minbari cruisers never show much in the way of point defense, I don't know where you got that idea from-unless you mean that segment that segment Londo was narrating that showed a group of a dozen or so Sharlins concentrating fire on a lone transport and a handful of fighters? At any rate, it was Londo speaking, so according to you, that segment is entirely unreliable. Minbari don't need point defense because of their stealth technology and the fact that their fighters are so darn good.

The only time we see a Vree ship fire, it takes out several vorlon fighters. It seems to be a common occurrence for B5 capital ships to use their main guns on fighters and other fast moving targets, and they seem to be able to target them reasonably well in these instances-both Omegas and OmegaXs have been shown to be capable of hitting whitestars at range.

Since I never maid that claim...

What I said was not a huge advantage since not all fighters use it.

You said that the ability to turn 180 while being pursued made starfuries predictable, and presumably easier to shoot down.

I doubt it would have helped since the rebels were just to incompetent to do things they could have done in canon to deal with Vader.

It's canon they don't always fire their turbolasers at full power as of the destroy the malevolence trilogy.

This is the EU were battle crabs can do things like cut planets in half, right?

Just because something is official or canon doesn't mean it does not contradict canon. You'll notice that the Episode-II and III incredible cross sections are laughed at here even though they are "canon".

As you yourself have admitted, so basically, what is acceptable canon is defined by you when it helps your argument? Plenty of things you have used from the EU could never be implied from what we see on screen, and some of your arguments are flat out contradictory with visual evidence until the EU comes in.

I'm just saying they are par since they use the same tactics that only work if point defense is far below 100%.

You for got the SSD which was taking on a fleet and fighters. You will also notice that fighters explode when they hit shields.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
I'd like to see a Star fury try the DS-II run.

When do we see fighters explode when hitting shields? we see a TIE explode when it hits a rebel ship, but no indication if it was shielded or not. Besides, the ATATs certainly didn't explode when it walked through the rebel shield generator, so it seems that only some of them stop solid objects.

A starfury would definitely be able to take the DS II run, considering that they wouldn't have to rely on the MF to shoot at the fighters behind them. The rebel fleet wasn't any bigger then the one that defended earth and mars in B5.

I actually don't think there is that big a differences in fire power now that I've been taking a closer look. It's the shields that would make a difference, and possibly weird armor for Star Wars side.

B5 anti-capital ship weapons seem to range from mega joule to low peta joule weapons normally for the young races like humans.

Star Wars seems to use weapons in the tera joule to peta joule range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
1 ton bomb(a 4.184 gigajoule release of energy or so they claim)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYVMXYYAp4

The problem is that no SW ship ever displays firepower capable of doing that much damage, even the ATAT on 'maximum firepower' causes an initially small explosion on the shield generator.

Except for the fact the movie is him telling a story to little kids. There is no reason to think it is 100% accurate since it contradicts the guy who was there, and did it.

Nothing in that scene contradicts anything Sherriden says in either of the two times he mentions it in the rest of the series.

That actually looks like a shield flare to me ever time I watch it. It's just weird, and I can't pause on the frame.

You have to keep on trying to pause it on frame. Youtube doesn't let you advance frame-by-frame, only second by second. The attack at least left a scorch mark, as you can see blackening on the falcon without the smoke on the spot where the blaster hit as han runs up the ramp. It's not much bigger then the mark left on the ATST on endor. At the very least, we can probably say that there isn't much difference in the amount of protection the falcon and a ATST in terms of energy weaponry.

Shields do seem to offer some protection, for fighters. A solid hit takes them out just the same though, and sustained fire brings them down quickly. If B5 went against the empire, this wouldn't be a problem, since none of their fighters seem to have shields.

[Lucky]

B5 EU avoids that contradiction by clearly pointing out that the ships the shadows use in the wars with the younger races were essentially fast grown babies with younger race members as CPU's only a tiny fraction as powerful as the primordial ships that are piloted by the shadows themselves.

This theory goes out the window when the Vorlons and Shadows stopped playing their games, and just started wiping out planets, and fighting each other. There was no point to the planet killers if they had ships even half as capable as the primordial battle crabs are said to be.

I seem to recall the Third space movie also contradicting this.

In the early days the first ones even had a time war on a galactic scale that got so bad that reality itself started to collapse and the race the "first one" came from had to make themselves part of space time to prevent it and further time travel, that is why it can only now be done through rifts.#

And that is why none of this makes sense in the context of the series. There was no attempt to imply any thing like this.

[Lucky]

They better fighters and field them in greater numbers then say, the rebels ever could. They still die like flies, but as has been pointed out, by you, those that get through can deal considerable damage to enemy ships.

So you claim Babylon 5 races are stupid, wasteful, and pointlessly send their people to die because they know almost all their people will die in the fighters?

You have yet to prove Babylon 5 fighters are better then Star Wars fighters.

And as I said, only the Vree, centauri, and humans show considerable point defense, the rest of the races rely on fighters to fill that gap.

The Vree only have one gun on their ships, and it points in a fixed direction making it impossible to use as point defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-defence

The Centauri are bad shots who can't even hit a space station or damaged Narn heavy cruiser.

Centauri vorchans can use their main guns to knock out drazi missiles at range. considering the speed these missiles are seen to be traveling at, it's a fair assumption that any fighter attacking a vorchan from the front would have a hard time reaching engagement range, be it B5 or SW. The fire from the Primus was being shot down by interceptor fire before it could hit either, which actually speaks to the quality of human point defense, but says nothing about centauri accuracy.

You mean this battle? It certainly does not help your case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz6M8F8aJ-Y

The Drazi might as well have been using Leos as weapons in place of those missiles. ^_^

Minbari cruisers never show much in the way of point defense, I don't know where you got that idea from-unless you mean that segment that segment Londo was narrating that showed a group of a dozen or so Sharlins concentrating fire on a lone transport and a handful of fighters? At any rate, it was Londo speaking, so according to you, that segment is entirely unreliable. Minbari don't need point defense because of their stealth technology and the fact that their fighters are so darn good.

They had to capture Sinclair during the battle of the line. The Minbari had to be able to target fighters.

The only time we see a Vree ship fire, it takes out several vorlon fighters. It seems to be a common occurrence for B5 capital ships to use their main guns on fighters and other fast moving targets, and they seem to be able to target them reasonably well in these instances-both Omegas and OmegaXs have been shown to be capable of hitting whitestars at range.

That isn't point defense. The Vree ships and White star have no point defense.

You said that the ability to turn 180 while being pursued made starfuries predictable, and presumably easier to shoot down.

They keep going in a straight line making them easy targets.

As you yourself have admitted, so basically, what is acceptable canon is defined by you when it helps your argument? Plenty of things you have used from the EU could never be implied from what we see on screen, and some of your arguments are flat out contradictory with visual evidence until the EU comes in.

You really love to distort what I say and out right lie don't you. The yields don't change if you exclude the Star Wars EU(C and S levels of canon), and in fact hurts you since now we lack a limit for the Imperial era.

When do we see fighters explode when hitting shields? we see a TIE explode when it hits a rebel ship, but no indication if it was shielded or not. Besides, the ATATs certainly didn't explode when it walked through the rebel shield generator, so it seems that only some of them stop solid objects.

You didn't watch the video did. You will see bright white/blueish flashes just about when a fighter crashes, and the same is normally seen for turbolasers.

A starfury would definitely be able to take the DS II run, considering that they wouldn't have to rely on the MF to shoot at the fighters behind them. The rebel fleet wasn't any bigger then the one that defended earth and mars in B5.

The Falcon never shot at the ties behind it once during the battle of endor. Watch the clips I provide, and stop making stuff up.

Star Fury have to obey Newton's laws. They can't move like that.

The problem is that no SW ship ever displays firepower capable of doing that much damage, even the ATAT on 'maximum firepower' causes an initially small explosion on the shield generator.

Funny how the ships said to have that level of fire power never fire on planets., and I want you to show me a picture of the crater left on Hoth from the reactor exploding.

Nothing in that scene contradicts anything Sherriden says in either of the two times he mentions it in the rest of the series.

Londo's story lacks the three other Minbari war ships, and I find it hard to believe Londo saw the Black Star's destruction..

You have to keep on trying to pause it on frame. Youtube doesn't let you advance frame-by-frame, only second by second. The attack at least left a scorch mark, as you can see blackening on the falcon without the smoke on the spot where the blaster hit as han runs up the ramp. It's not much bigger then the mark left on the ATST on endor. At the very least, we can probably say that there isn't much difference in the amount of protection the falcon and a ATST in terms of energy weaponry.

Scorch marks are not proof of damage. Prove damage or drop the point.

Shields do seem to offer some protection, for fighters. A solid hit takes them out just the same though, and sustained fire brings them down quickly. If B5 went against the empire, this wouldn't be a problem, since none of their fighters seem to have shields.

Shields let ships take direct hits.

[User1555]

So you claim Babylon 5 races are stupid, wasteful, and pointlessly send their people to die because they know almost all their people will die in the fighters?

You have yet to prove Babylon 5 fighters are better then Star Wars fighters.

Rebels and TIEs die like flies, do they stupidly, wastefully, and pointlessly send their people to die because they know almost all their people will die in the fighters? No because they know that a fighter can do considerable damage to a capital ship if it gets in range. Since most Younger Races anti-fighter capabilities are forward-oriented and some races neglect it entirely, it makes sense to use fighters in B5, since Imperial point defense generally can't hit worth a darn, it makes sense for the rebels to field fighters, since the Imperial point defense sucks so much, it makes sense for them to field fighters to counter any fighters their enemies might bring to a fight.

Starfuries are more maneuverable then SW fighters and can go at speeds comparable to a whitestar when they want to, while having better targeting computers and comparable weapons to a SW fighter. Minbari fighters have stealth technology as well as those horrific beam weapons. Most of the other races field mediocre or poor fighters.

You mean this battle? It certainly does not help your case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz6M8F8aJ-Y

The Drazi might as well have been using Leos as weapons in place of those missiles. ^_^

What? how does that hurt my argument? Those missiles were going at least as fast as an X-wing, and all of them got knocked out before hitting the Centauri ships. Point to the spot where the Imperial Armada at Endor wipes out the entirety of the rebel fighter support before they close to engagement range.

That isn't point defense. The Vree ships and White star have no point defense.

It seems to be a common occurrence for B5 capital ships to use their main guns on fighters

I mislabeled their weapons in my first post that I mentioned the Vree, I clarified that it was their main weapon the second time I mentioned them. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Besides:

They had to capture Sinclair during the battle of the line. The Minbari had to be able to target fighters.

You made the same mistake, the minbari used a tractor beam. At any rate, nothing here hurts the babylon 5 cause in any form. Vree being able to track and orient their ship to fire on fighters that effectively with their main gun while on the move speaks to the prowess of their ships, not any weakness. Ditto for the tractor beam.

Whitestars have no point defense, and I did not claim that they did. I only claimed that Omegas and OmegaX's were capable of hitting them at distance.

They keep going in a straight line making them easy targets.

Still better then keeping on in a straight line without being able to return fire. I'm sure that the rebel fighters at yavin and endor would have like to have that ability.

You really love to distort what I say and out right lie don't you. The yields don't change if you exclude the Star Wars EU(C and S levels of canon), and in fact hurts you since now we lack a limit for the Imperial era.

Yes, the yields do change. If we limit our conclusions to what we can gain from what is seen and heard in the movies and the series, we see that there really isn't that much of a firepower disparity between the two, that SW armor isn't particularly strong, SW point defense is variable from vehicle to vehicle, Star Destroyers don't have any armament besides their fighters and turbolasers, and that shields are somewhat unreliable.

You didn't watch the video did. You will see bright white/blueish flashes just about when a fighter crashes, and the same is normally seen for turbolasers.

Still don't see it, but I admit I might have been wrong on this point, they probably protect them from fighter-sized objects, considering the admiral seemed to be pretty concerned when the shields went down with that A-wing barreling down, and he was pretty calm up until then.

The Falcon never shot at the ties behind it once during the battle of endor. Watch the clips I provide, and stop making stuff up.

Star Fury have to obey Newton's laws. They can't move like that.

The millennium Falcon had the ability to shoot down fighters that were behind it, that is not made up. The fact that it did not does not for whatever reason does not change this. The point was that each individual starfury would have the option of firing behind it, and that this ability is inherent in all starfuries, not just a single unique craft.

Starfuries obey newtons laws, they change their orientation, not the direction the craft is moving in-they retain their forward motion.

Funny how the ships said to have that level of fire power never fire on planets., and I want you to show me a picture of the crater left on Hoth from the reactor exploding.

There are two obviously separate explosions. There is one explosion from when the blasters hit, and another a moment following. This would be similar to when Anakin shoots the reactor on the Lucrehulk, which sets off some sort of chain reaction explosion. We see the AT-AT fire on its 'normal' setting and it seems to leave small craters much smaller then the ones left by the 'one ton' video you posted earlier, and was still able to blow up shielded snowspeeders rather reliably. (I say shielded because we see the speeders take hits from inside the cockpit several times and survive, yet other times they get blown up rather easily.

Scorch marks are not proof of damage. Prove damage or drop the point.

Since you asked so nicely:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5668/swfalcon.jpg

The flash wraps around the lip of metal, which seems to indicate that the blast cut through the metal.

Shields let ships take direct hits.

Rebel ships have shields, TIEs do not. And shields let ships take direct hits.....sometimes. Other times they just explode. At any rate, they seem to be much stronger from the front then they are from the rear.

[Admiral Breetai]

[
Is this your entire response. It looks like there are a lot of words missing.]

it was more FO ships can withstand that type of fire power and EA vessels tend to be floating slabs of metal walls with a bunch of gats sticking out and engine slapped on the rear

[
The Shadows grow their ships under ground on places like Mars. I think it is how that ship is constructed rather then what it is made of.

nano machines and organic matter lots of it..and in the EU iirc from corpses so it's a zombie mech basically..

but as far as main canon goes no the one found under mars was hanging out there for the past thousand years or so taking a nap it wasn't grown there

[
That's going to go over real well with a rebellion already in full swing. ^_^

Let's just assume the Emperor just magically has the funds.

that works too

[

[
I thought those were antimatter mining charges.

aside from the Centauri Minbari and Vree no younger race uses anti matter (the vree are supposedly able to go even footing with the Minbari)

[]They are able to damage if not destroy first ones ships at a distance, and that means the ships were hit with less then 250-300 megatons.

I don't recall those being used at Corriana

[

[
They wouldn't be fleet killers if only because the ships should be spread out.

lots of B5 races use pack hunting mentality...if the average armor was as craptastic as the boneheads entire fleets would be slaughtered by will placed charges

[They seem to be treated as a note worthy power for some reason.

picture an entire race of composite Joe pesci characters backed up by that psycho Micheal Madson character from reservoir dogs -right at the tail end of the Centauri republic a big massively potent bully

Drazi are tough crazy bastards with that Pesci style "i don't care if your bigger then me" through sheer grit they keep the centuari from steam rolling them making it so it's not worth it

they have allot of respect because of that and probably have the largest military in the LON..they are influential because they are supposedly literally right on the Republics doorstep and are fierce enough that the Centuari don't really go completely conquest happy on them

[You wouldn't happen to know what episode would you? I only remember a Shadow ship doing something like that.

it was during in the beginning and the Vorchan came out behind the G'quan opened fire and iirc split it apart

[
You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83U5Oupj ... 2-2r-14-HM

no battle of proxima methinks


[

[The EA controls about 14 systems as of about 2259.

small compared to the centauri

[

[Logically the Empire should be able to match if not surpass the younger races at least.

I can buy matching or beating out the LON..and the minbari but humanity the centuari and narn?

[I'm not sure anything in Babylon 5 would be a real improvement over what's al;ready there in Star Wars just counting the movies.

regenerating armor that adapts to your enemies weaponry and magneto gravitic shield that allows for disrupting the very types of weapons the enemy fires?

[The ship would somehow have all the high end force powers, and wield a light saber somehow.^_^

hehe a bio mechanical macross wielding lightsabers..oh yes

That was purely cosmetic.

eh?? very flimsy excuse to dismiss

I'm not really sure why blasters have much recoil at all.

so leia is superhumanly durable? eating a multi megaton blaster to the shoulder and taking only a flesh wound? (lol)

[That was caused by hitting things that would go boom for one reason or another as I recall. Luke wasn't shooting at random. It's kind of like exploding consoles in Star Trek.

collapsing rigging killing people on the inside as the ceiling collapses on you in fire and doom..is a bit more then exploding consoles

[Admiral Breetai]

This is the EU were battle crabs can do things like cut planets in half, right?

Just because something is official or canon doesn't mean it does not contradict canon. You'll notice that the Episode-II and III incredible cross sections are laughed at here even though they are "canon".

While what you say about the ICS is true the problem with them is that they try to force us to accept that what we see on screen are 200 gigatons ect.

B5 EU avoids that contradiction by clearly pointing out that the ships the shadows use in the wars with the younger races were essentially fast grown babies with younger race members as CPU's only a tiny fraction as powerful as the primordial ships that are piloted by the shadows themselves.

In the early days the first ones even had a time war on a galactic scale that got so bad that reality itself started to collapse and the race the "first one" came from had to make themselves part of space time to prevent it and further time travel, that is why it can only now be done through rifts.#
]

damn kor where do you get that info? I've been looking for backround fluff and info on first ones and b five tech and races for years...