The Invasion of the b 5 Galaxy

[Admiral Breetai]

[
The bigger the planet killer a side has the less scary they become. That is why Star Trek powers are scary, but Babylon 5 first ones are a joke.

that wasn't a planet killer that was joe blow battle crab firing its weapons and doing that

[
Where is that stated?

in the episode with Ana or the ep when they went to go blast it that's pretty much typical b5 canon shadow ships don't grow their vessels in ditches on red planets they stuff 'em there to sleep until they start kicking ass again


[

[]I don't recall nukes working that way.

it's fiction and a good writer intentionally trolls the laws of physics

[]Somehow I think it was more a Shadow/Vorlon thing what with the civil war ever 5 years was it where which side you were on was luck of the draw.

true at the same time these where former subjects of the lion

[I just can't find any exact information on the Net about the size of the Centauri Republic

the rpgs have an obssessive amount of info on them good read and iirc canon by decree from JMS

[Jump space has quirks to it that makes it easier and or faster to get some places then others, and some places at least the younger races just can't reach

at the same time one can have dozens of uninhabited worlds in their turf and only a half dozen colonized worlds


[

[Since when? I have watched al;l 5 seasons, and only the Vorlons and third spacers have any sort of shielding.

in b5 canon any vessel that has AG has..shielding..what they have though isn't the typical bubble type shields its more an magnetic gravity mesh that reduces the amount of energy that gets through

its literally a side affect of developing artificial gravity tech and all AG capable species have it.some times it also doubles as an engine problem is against extreme fire power it obviously does not matter hence the vorlons have something extra

[
Yet it is never used by them on screen.]

yet it was the Primus has it The Sharlins and Warlocks and whitestars all have it

the main reason why a primus has craptastic armor is specifically because their primitive shield/grav tech getting wonky when more armor is slapped onto the hull (their more advanced ships don't have that problem)

[]I can light a firecracker on a brick, and the brick will turn black. Does that mean the brick has been damaged, no.

if only that accurately described what happened

[]Blaster bolts seem to be made out of some sort of some sort of gas, and explode. They aren't just say photons.

so Lukes hand wasn't enveloped in flames because the thugs gun needed a stop at the local citgo?

[
We don't know why blasters have the level of recoil they do.

protip no leia isn't Benjamin Grimms ancient ancestor..and they aint that powerful SW armor just isn't nearly as impressive as anything but the movies make it out to be

[You could ask the same thing about the exhaust port.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWxwingfal.html

that's a bit different

[Admiral Breetai]

wait why are we making use of anything other then the movie and the tv series? for star wars?

oh and some points

1, Sw fighters aren't shielded and their armor is weak a head shot on r2 didn't vaporize the little bastard yet it was clearly the same level of fire power used to score hits against fighters

2, Vree ships suck so much that they are one of the few races capable of not only LOLing minbari sealth but fully able to go toe to toe with a Sharlin with older ships and manage a double KO..and outright beat 'em with the big ships- yeah..they don't suck so bad

[User1555]

Prove it.

Playing ball turret is not a sign of good maneuverability. It's just flying in a straight line.

Starfuries use this ability to maneuver, not just ball turret. At least on one occasion this is used to double back.

After prolonged combat with other ships, and we see that. The A-Wing was the straw that broke the camel's back.

That wasn't prolonged by any means. The SSD went down fast as soon as ships started concentrating on it. And there was no visible fire being directed towards the bridge besides what those two (four?) a-wings brought to bear.

Do you understand the SSD was 8 to 19 kilometers long. It's about the size of Babylon 5, and when the A-wing took out the shield it was also under attack from every other rebel ship in range. Do you really expect to see every hit shown on screen?

They might have been firing on it, but they weren't firing/were not within range of the shields From what we see in the movie, 2-4 a-wings took down the bridge shield by themselves, and then destroyed the bridge.

When?

What context?

When Han gives the Falcon to Lando prior to the battle of Endor, because 'it's the fastest ship in the fleet'

Porkins Ep-4

When acting as a ball turret a star fury can't maneuver.

Porkins is not a good example of rebel maneuverability. Starfuries use their maneuvering thrusters to reorient themselves and to move in a straight line. A starfury can use this maneuver to reorient themselves and move in another direction, without needing to make big swooping maneuvers like SW fighters or fighters of the other Younger races.

Every time I recall ECM involved a Minbari cap ship.

I already answered this. When the Rogue minbari show up to start a fight at B5, they send their fighters toward b5 with their stealth off in the hope that the starfuries will fire on them. When they don't, they loop back to the ship.

Another example: Season 5 shows us the inside of a minbari cockpit during Lineer's training, and we hear the stealth systems mentioned specifically in reference to minbari fighters.

Other information we learn from Lineers training: Whitestars have enough room in their bays for at least three fighters, their fighters can be voice commanded to lock onto specific parts of other fighters, their fighters carry 24 hours of air, and that their fighters are capable of latching onto bigger ships in much the same way as the falcon does to the SD.

Strange those scanners were unjamable, and the Rebels only used theirs to target the vent.

There are a number of things they could have looked for on the escape pod in Ep-4.

There is absolutely no evidence that their scanners were unjammable. SW scanners are only shown to be capable of detecting lifesigns. Note that they were planning to do the procedure on the falcon by hand-not a terribly efficient way to do it when in a battle vs minbari.

Endor? What did I say that had anything to do with Star wars?

Are you tell me we can't make missiles that will not explode just because their buddies were blown up by AA?

The point was that if they could destroy that many missiles with their guns before they can reach them, they shouldn't have much problem hitting fighters either, considering SW fighters don't seem to make any evasive actions until they are within dogfight range with other fighters.

As stated previously, the shots fired from the vorchan explode on contact. It wasn't necessarily the missiles causing a chain reaction.

It's easy for us to make things that avoid obstacles like blobs of slow moving plasma.

Not really. Modern missiles do not take evasive maneuvers to avoid countermeasures.

The only thing that makes sense is dumb fire since the missiles made no attempt to avoid the slow moving AA.

Modern missiles do not take evasive actions to avoid countermeasures. You seem to think they do. A missile will always travel the shortest distance possible to its target.

And how do you know this? Eyeballing it the missiles look slower.

The X-wings won't just fly into the AA like a Star fury pilot or those missiles.

Lineer latches his fighter onto a vorchan at one point in the series, so we have something to go on. x-wings would be slightly larger then the missiles, but they were traveling at speeds not inconsistent with those of an x-wing.

x-wing pilots are fully capable of flying at a straight line at things and getting blown up, they have demonstrated this ability before.

The Lambda at least should be able to out do the Falcon in combat since the Lambda is an armed military craft.

We never see a lambda fire. It doesn't seem to have space for a quad turret at the very least.

They still have to expose their largest cross section to attack. which is bad, and that has nothing to do with Star Wars.

We need a thread where we just pick apart ship designs.

Their attack runs are pretty fast, and the last place a fighter wants to be is underneath it. This is no more exposure then every time the millennium falcon flies past any other ship, the difference being the falcon doesn't have rapid fire antimatter cannons.

T-canon isn't the EU.

G-canon ships never use anything besides common turbolasers.

I have yet to see something in Babylon 5 that isn't done in Star Wars. Neither side has any real advantage when it comes to fighters.

Star Fury do to limitation in technology can not match the fighters in Star Wars.

Ball turret, stealth technology, voice activated AI targeting. Comparable firepower. targeting computers that are actually useful. The only edge SW fighters have is shielding and hyperdrive, and TIEs have neither.

I've never seen what you are talking about.

I seem to recall this after lukes gunner was killed.

You see it in TESB when the Falcon is escaping the star destroyers, and proton cannons act the same way. Why the blots explode is anyone's guess.

I was under the impression that that was the shields working. Do you have a youtube link?

So AT-AT have shields so weak that they don't matter?

Never said that. Their necks seem to be unarmored/unshielded though.

[Lucky]

that wasn't a planet killer that was joe blow battle crab firing its weapons and doing that

Why build giant and slow bombardment weapons if you have ships with more then enough power to do the job already. It's just a waste of resources.


It doesn't make sense for the Vorlons, Sadows, or Empire to build huge hulking ships to way waste to planets if they can just as easily do it with their standard ships.

in the episode with Ana or the ep when they went to go blast it that's pretty much typical b5 canon shadow ships don't grow their vessels in ditches on red planets they stuff 'em there to sleep until they start kicking ass again

I don't recall that.

it's fiction and a good writer intentionally trolls the laws of physics

Point taken still I don't recall nukes working that way in B5.

true at the same time these where former subjects of the lion

I honestly can't see the Centuari liking such a practice

the rpgs have an obssessive amount of info on them good read and iirc canon by decree from JMS

Like the canon that says the Shadows and Vorlons made their planet killers for giggles?

in b5 canon any vessel that has AG has..shielding..what they have though isn't the typical bubble type shields its more an magnetic gravity mesh that reduces the amount of energy that gets through

its literally a side affect of developing artificial gravity tech and all AG capable species have it.some times it also doubles as an engine problem is against extreme fire power it obviously does not matter hence the vorlons have something extra

It's never brought up in the show, and from what we see useless in combat.

yet it was the Primus has it The Sharlins and Warlocks and whitestars all have it

If it was there it would have been mentioned as part of the White Star's defenses.

the main reason why a primus has craptastic armor is specifically because their primitive shield/grav tech getting wonky when more armor is slapped onto the hull (their more advanced ships don't have that problem)

Then why do the Minbari have crap armor?

if only that accurately described what happened

Blasters some how tunnel into the target and then explode, or just explode on contact. It actually explains Storm Trooper armor design somewhat.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ne+Obi+won

so Lukes hand wasn't enveloped in flames because the thugs gun needed a stop at the local citgo?

It's canon the bolts explode on contact, or after tunneling into the target. You can see it in every Star Wars movie.

There's even the rare bolt leaving a round hole in one person and kill the person behind him as I recall.

protip no leia isn't Benjamin Grimms ancient ancestor..and they aint that powerful SW armor just isn't nearly as impressive as anything but the movies make it out to be

What does recoil have to do with how effective the bolt is?

that's a bit different

What do you mean? Didn't you know the surface of the death star-I wasn't totally armored? It's no worse then having a thermal exhaust port with nothing to conduct the heat away from the heat source.

1, Sw fighters aren't shielded and their armor is weak a head shot on r2 didn't vaporize the little bastard yet it was clearly the same level of fire power used to score hits against fighters

We see shields on some.

2, Vree ships suck so much that they are one of the few races capable of not only LOLing minbari sealth but fully able to go toe to toe with a Sharlin with older ships and manage a double KO..and outright beat 'em with the big ships- yeah..they don't suck so bad

That doesn't mean the design could not be much better, but that goes for almost all Sci-Fi. It's extremely rare for there to be an in-universe reason for why ships are the way they are.

[Lucky]

Starfuries use this ability to maneuver, not just ball turret. At least on one occasion this is used to double back.

But it's not a big advantage. Normally if a star fury is not moving like a turret it moves like a nail only more slowly.

That wasn't prolonged by any means. The SSD went down fast as soon as ships started concentrating on it. And there was no visible fire being directed towards the bridge besides what those two (four?) a-wings brought to bear.

We don't see the entire battle.

They might have been firing on it, but they weren't firing/were not within range of the shields From what we see in the movie, 2-4 a-wings took down the bridge shield by themselves, and then destroyed the bridge.

We've never seen shields on anything lose go down so easily so why should we assume that only the A-wings attacked since we know there was a lot we didn't see,

When Han gives the Falcon to Lando prior to the battle of Endor, because 'it's the fastest ship in the fleet'

Han is known for some rather nonsensical boasts remember, and fighters have no problem matching it, or exceeding it, and Star Destroyers seem to be able to out run the Falcon.

Porkins is not a good example of rebel maneuverability. Starfuries use their maneuvering thrusters to reorient themselves and to move in a straight line. A starfury can use this maneuver to reorient themselves and move in another direction, without needing to make big swooping maneuvers like SW fighters or fighters of the other Younger races.

Porkins is an example of what will happen to a Star Fury if they start playing ball turret.

I already answered this. When the Rogue minbari show up to start a fight at B5, they send their fighters toward b5 with their stealth off in the hope that the starfuries will fire on them. When they don't, they loop back to the ship.

Another example: Season 5 shows us the inside of a minbari cockpit during Lineer's training, and we hear the stealth systems mentioned specifically in reference to minbari fighters.

Be fore you only proved the capital ships had the ECM system.

Other information we learn from Lineers training: Whitestars have enough room in their bays for at least three fighters, their fighters can be voice commanded to lock onto specific parts of other fighters, their fighters carry 24 hours of air, and that their fighters are capable of latching onto bigger ships in much the same way as the falcon does to the SD.

That could end badly for the nail's pilot if the Death Star-I is any indication.

There is absolutely no evidence that their scanners were unjammable. SW scanners are only shown to be capable of detecting lifesigns. Note that they were planning to do the procedure on the falcon by hand-not a terribly efficient way to do it when in a battle vs minbari.

We don't see the fighters having much trouble with jamming at the end of ANH.

The Falcon was specially shielded to hide hidden compartments.

The point was that if they could destroy that many missiles with their guns before they can reach them, they shouldn't have much problem hitting fighters either, considering SW fighters don't seem to make any evasive actions until they are within dogfight range with other fighters.

You do realize you just said that Star wars pilots don't take evasive actions unless they have reason to? If they are being shot at they will try to avoid being hit.

As stated previously, the shots fired from the vorchan explode on contact. It wasn't necessarily the missiles causing a chain reaction.

A missile is worthless unless it hits it's target. Close should only count in horse shoes. The missiles should not have been exploding like cowards.

Not really. Modern missiles do not take evasive maneuvers to avoid countermeasures.

I'm thinking of space craft I guess, and that the guys who made those missiles should have had those guns in mind.

Modern missiles do not take evasive actions to avoid countermeasures. You seem to think they do. A missile will always travel the shortest distance possible to its target.

They can hit moving targets last I checked.

Lineer latches his fighter onto a vorchan at one point in the series, so we have something to go on. x-wings would be slightly larger then the missiles, but they were traveling at speeds not inconsistent with those of an x-wing.

How do you know the speed of the missiles?

Star Wars fighters have no problems keeping up with the Falcon, and the Falcon is faster then a Star Fury can be.

x-wing pilots are fully capable of flying at a straight line at things and getting blown up, they have demonstrated this ability before.

When do Star Wars pilots just fly in straight lines?

We never see a lambda fire. It doesn't seem to have space for a quad turret at the very least.

It has 8 guns facing forwards, and some sources give it a rear facing gun.

Their attack runs are pretty fast, and the last place a fighter wants to be is underneath it. This is no more exposure then every time the millennium falcon flies past any other ship, the difference being the falcon doesn't have rapid fire antimatter cannons.

I can list a number of design flaws for the Falcon, but the Falcon is not designed for combat, and the Vree ship is.

G-canon ships never use anything besides common turbolasers.

Not all the visible turbolasers are the same in G-canon, and in T-canon we are directly told there are heavy, medium, and light gun.

Ball turret, stealth technology, voice activated AI targeting. Comparable firepower. targeting computers that are actually useful. The only edge SW fighters have is shielding and hyperdrive, and TIEs have neither.

And with all that the Centauri could not hit a damaged Narn heavy cruiser, or B5.

I seem to recall this after lukes gunner was killed.

That looked like an indirect hit to me, a glancing blow.

I was under the impression that that was the shields working. Do you have a youtube link?

Shields don't extend far from the hull.
Here is the page for proton cannons, but I think you will have to watch the episode they appear in.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Proton_cannon
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Innocents_of_Ryloth

I don't think the shields extend all that far. Look at about 0:30, and there should be some more explosive bolts later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58

Never said that. Their necks seem to be unarmored/unshielded though.

Same with their bellies.

[Admiral Breetai]

Why build giant and slow bombardment weapons if you have ships with more then enough power to do the job already. It's just a waste of resources.[

they are about awe and impressing upon the children the magnitude of their power

they are wasteful arrogant and pyschotic both of them

It doesn't make sense for the Vorlons, Sadows, or Empire to build huge hulking ships to way waste to planets if they can just as easily do it with their standard ships.

yes it does when the idea is to terrify and impress which is exactly what they where out to slaughter each others minions and pacify the rest of the galaxy into complacency through pants shititng terror

[

I don't recall that.

rewatch the series it was never said that they grew those suckers in mars during the interim years...hell franklin made a really good speach after the shadow war comparing the Drakhs to all those arab nations that stole Russian nukes some of these things had been sitting around for eons ready to dig up

I honestly can't see the Centuari liking such a practic

e

the games no..the crazyness of the Drazi also coming from how violent the centuari can be to conquered subjects? yes

Like the canon that says the Shadows and Vorlons made their planet killers for giggles?]

that's from the series

It's never brought up in the show, and from what we see useless in combat.

yes you do any time you see an AG capable race your looking for a tell tale bubble as opposed to what you should be looking for

If it was there it would have been mentioned as part of the White Star's defenses.

they have gravtic tech that covers it

Then why do the Minbari have crap armor?

what does thatr have to do with Gravitic tech? the minbari have shit armor because they are a species of ego maniacal bigots who think that they are the best thing in outer space and only really invest in their stealth tech

It's canon the bolts explode on contact, or after tunneling into the target. You can see it in every Star Wars movie.

what canon because they act like standard ray guns every time i see 'em

What does recoil have to do with how effective the bolt is?

that has nothing to do with what we where talking about

What do you mean? Didn't you know the surface of the death star-I wasn't totally armored? It's no worse then having a thermal exhaust port with nothing to conduct the heat away from the heat source.

yeah 1 I'd like a movie quote or scene..2, armor in sw is kinda craptastic any ways

We see shields on some.]

which ones?


[

That doesn't mean the design could not be much better, but that goes for almost all Sci-Fi. It's extremely rare for there to be an in-universe reason for why ships are the way they are.

the point is as crappy as they are they are still fast enough and accurate enough to gatling first one fighters to death

[Lucky]

they are about awe and impressing upon the children the magnitude of their power

they are wasteful arrogant and pyschotic both of them

yes it does when the idea is to terrify and impress which is exactly what they where out to slaughter each others minions and pacify the rest of the galaxy into complacency through pants shititng terror

But the planet killers make the Vorlons and Shadows less scary.

They should have gone with tiny planet killers. Anyone can do big and powerful, but if you want to show off how advanced you are you go with as small as you can, and still get the job done. It's what makes White Star class ships so awesome.

rewatch the series it was never said that they grew those suckers in mars during the interim years...hell franklin made a really good speach after the shadow war comparing the Drakhs to all those arab nations that stole Russian nukes some of these things had been sitting around for eons ready to dig up

The Shadows had to grow them somewhere, and had to be growing new battle crabs during each cycle. In the ground makes the most sense.

the games no..the crazyness of the Drazi also coming from how violent the centuari can be to conquered subjects? yes

It always seemed like some really old tradition to me

that's from the series

It's things like the planet killers were just for fun that make me not take the B% EU seriously.

yes you do any time you see an AG capable race your looking for a tell tale bubble as opposed to what you should be looking for

I'm looking at a Sharlin and not seeing it.

they have gravtic tech that covers it

We are given a run down of all the white star's defenses, and the don't mention it.

what does thatr have to do with Gravitic tech? the minbari have shit armor because they are a species of ego maniacal bigots who think that they are the best thing in outer space and only really invest in their stealth tech

"It's the Vorlons fualt" works better.

what canon because they act like standard ray guns every time i see 'em

Han's blaster from A New Hope just before leaving for Alderran

Slave-I when Fet is trying to kill Obi-won

that has nothing to do with what we where talking about

Then what are we talking about?

yeah 1 I'd like a movie quote or scene..2, armor in sw is kinda craptastic any ways

It's from the novelization, and the quotes

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWxwingfal.html

Bolts flew from the tiny vessel's weapons. One started a huge fire on the dim surface below, which would burn until the crew of the station could shut off the flow of air to the damaged section.
Luke's glee turned to terror as he realized he couldn't swerve his craft in time to avoid passing through the fireball of unknown composition. "Pull out, Luke, pull out!" Biggs was screaming at him. But despite commands to shift course, the automatic pressors wouldn't allow the necessary centrifugal force. His fighter plunged into the expanding balls of superheated gases.
Then he was through and clear, on the other side. A rapid check of his controls enabled him to relax. Passage through the intense heat had not been insufficient to damage anything vital, though all four wings bore streaks of black, carbonized testimony to the nearness of his escape.
Hell-flowers bloomed outside his ship as he swung it up and around in a sharp curve. "You all right, Luke?" came Biggs's concerned query.
"I got a little toasted, but I'm okay."

Energy bolts and sun-bright beams continued to create a chromatic maze in the space above the station as the rebel fighters crisscrossed back and forth over its surface, firing at whatever looked like a decent target. Two of the tiny craft concentrated on a power terminal. It blew up, throwing lightning-sized electric arcs from the station's innards.
Inside, troopers, mechanicals, and equipment were blown in all directions by subsidiary explosions as the effects of the blast traveled back down various conduits and cables. Where the explosion had hulled the station, escaping atmosphere sucked helpless soldiers and 'droids out into a bottomless black tomb.

which ones?

N-1s for certain

the point is as crappy as they are they are still fast enough and accurate enough to gatling first one fighters to death

I just like picking apart designs. It would make more sense if it showed as little of it's selfe to the enemy as it could at all times.

[User1555]

But it's not a big advantage. Normally if a star fury is not moving like a turret it moves like a nail only more slowly.

It is undoubtedly an advantage, Starfury pilots can reorient their craft on the move to perform strafing runs without having to take a dive, shoot on craft behind them, or beside them etc. SW ships have to use turrets for this.

We don't see the entire battle.

Yet you claimed that the SSD destroyed all of the rebel A-wings as proof of its anti-fighter capabilities, when it is only shown to destroy two. A display of anti-fighter capabilities so underwhelming it cost the lives of what must have been thousands.

We've never seen shields on anything lose go down so easily so why should we assume that only the A-wings attacked since we know there was a lot we didn't see,

The shields are only stated as going down on the bridge after the dome is destroyed, it is heavily implied that the destruction of this dome caused the bridge is destroyed, and the dome itself was destroyed after only a few hits from two a-wings-absolutely no turbolaser shots are shown flying anywhere near the bridge.

Han is known for some rather nonsensical boasts remember, and fighters have no problem matching it, or exceeding it, and Star Destroyers seem to be able to out run the Falcon.

It's also stated that the falcon can specifically outrun star destroyers, which are also stated as being among the faster imperial ships. Imperial destroyers are shown to be rather lumbering any time they are on screen. The opening of ANH is the fastest we see one go.

Porkins is an example of what will happen to a Star Fury if they start playing ball turret.

If they can hit him. SW gunners seem to have quite a hard time with that. Remember that porkins was the only pilot to die at yavin to ground fire. as stated before, SF don't have to stop moving to turret, and at any rate, this maneuver is usually used against other fighters, against ships they often use their thrusters to swing up and around the ships to avoid fire.

Be fore you only proved the capital ships had the ECM system.

Yes I did.

"a Minbari warship arrives at B5 and tries to start a war by behaving in a warlike manner (attack vector, launching fighters towards B5) but they turn off their stealth technology off on their fighters because they want the B5 starfuries to fire first. Minbari fighters have stealth technology."

That could end badly for the nail's pilot if the Death Star-I is any indication.

No it would not. Darth Vader would not be able to lock onto them and wouldn't be able to hit them.

We don't see the fighters having much trouble with jamming at the end of ANH.

The Falcon was specially shielded to hide hidden compartments.

Probably because the fighters were not being jammed.

The falcon's ability to hide its occupants from imperial scanners is not a point in favor of SW scanners.

You do realize you just said that Star wars pilots don't take evasive actions unless they have reason to? If they are being shot at they will try to avoid being hit.

They did not take evasive actions on Hoth, they just flew in a straight line while under fire. Only TIE pilots seem to attempt this vs ships that aren't other fighters, as seen when they attacked the falcon in ANH.

A missile is worthless unless it hits it's target. Close should only count in horse shoes. The missiles should not have been exploding like cowards.

Their failure to hit the ships can be easily interpreted as evidence of the prowess of the centauri ships. As demonstrated, centauri interceptor fire was rather accurate, despite from originating from the two main guns on the ship, The explosive nature of the centauri projectiles took care of the rest. Non-sentient objects are incapable of being cowards (or heroes for that matter)

I'm thinking of space craft I guess, and that the guys who made those missiles should have had those guns in mind.

What would they have done? Programming AI into the missiles to recognize and avoid counterfire while keeping a lock on their real target is extremely advanced technology. Only the shadows have been shown to be adept in this field of technology.

They can hit moving targets last I checked.

And they will always take the shortest path to their target. this will typically be a more or less straight line. Missiles will only make dramatic swooping maneuvers to match their targets maneuvering. The Vorchans did not maneuver, nor were they moving very fast. It stands to reason that the missiles would not have to adjust their trajectories much or at all.

How do you know the speed of the missiles?

Star Wars fighters have no problems keeping up with the Falcon, and the Falcon is faster then a Star Fury can be.

Comparison to the vorcahn to the nial. The missile seems to be about the size of the body of an x-wing. The speed of the missiles seems to be within the combat speed of an x-wing. X-wings can go fast when they want to, but so can starfuries, although perhaps not as fast. Minbari fighters wouldn't have much trouble keeping up though, and are still easily as maneuverable as the rebel fighters.

Not all the visible turbolasers are the same in G-canon, and in T-canon we are directly told there are heavy, medium, and light gun.

They do not share the same appearance, but there is nothing to indicate that they carry varying amounts of firepower, as all of the bolts appear to be identical.

And with all that the Centauri could not hit a damaged Narn heavy cruiser, or B5.

uh....they DID hit B5. They blew off one of the spines that hang off the front. Its stated that B5s interceptors were keeping the fire off of them. The centauri weaponry was enough to overwhelm the defenses briefly, and that's when it blew off a chunk of the station.

That looked like an indirect hit to me, a glancing blow.

Luke's ship gets hit several times after his gunner was killed, which seems to indicate he still had shields. It would appear that OT shields are either somewhat unreliable, or are only capable of deflecting glancing shots.

Shields don't extend far from the hull.
Here is the page for proton cannons, but I think you will have to watch the episode they appear in.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Proton_cannon
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Innocents_of_Ryloth

I don't think the shields extend all that far. Look at about 0:30, and there should be some more explosive bolts later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58

You realize that several of those 'flack' hits were caused by TIEs, right? TIEs only have those two blasters/light turbolasers under the cockpit.

The page for proton canon lists it as being confederacy technology and pre OT.

I can list a number of design flaws for the Falcon, but the Falcon is not designed for combat, and the Vree ship is.

The falcon is still one of the ships the rebels have. Remember that admiral Lando decided to take it, instead of one of a B-wing, which were designed for combat.

It has 8 guns facing forwards, and some sources give it a rear facing gun.

There is no on-screen evidence that they were anything but shuttles. If they were gunships, then why were they never fielded in combat during the OT?

[Lucky]

It is undoubtedly an advantage, Starfury pilots can reorient their craft on the move to perform strafing runs without having to take a dive, shoot on craft behind them, or beside them etc. SW ships have to use turrets for this.

So do a lot Babylon 5 craft that are considered equal or better then Star Fury.

Yet you claimed that the SSD destroyed all of the rebel A-wings as proof of its anti-fighter capabilities, when it is only shown to destroy two. A display of anti-fighter capabilities so underwhelming it cost the lives of what must have been thousands.

They shoot down one, and you will notice no other fighter at the end of the battle besides those that survived the DS-II run.

The shields are only stated as going down on the bridge after the dome is destroyed, it is heavily implied that the destruction of this dome caused the bridge is destroyed, and the dome itself was destroyed after only a few hits from two a-wings-absolutely no turbolaser shots are shown flying anywhere near the bridge.

That either means:

A) The dome was not a shield generator

B) The shields had already taken a pounding

C) The shield dome was not working for reasons aside from combat

It's also stated that the falcon can specifically outrun star destroyers, which are also stated as being among the faster imperial ships. Imperial destroyers are shown to be rather lumbering any time they are on screen. The opening of ANH is the fastest we see one go.

I suppose that is why we see the Falcon getting run down by several Star Destroyers.
7:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEZ_cn72 ... re=related

If they can hit him. SW gunners seem to have quite a hard time with that. Remember that porkins was the only pilot to die at yavin to ground fire. as stated before, SF don't have to stop moving to turret, and at any rate, this maneuver is usually used against other fighters, against ships they often use their thrusters to swing up and around the ships to avoid fire.

Porkins was shot down because he started flying in a straight line, and Star Fury do the ball turret thing with cap ships as well.

Yes I did.

"a Minbari warship arrives at B5 and tries to start a war by behaving in a warlike manner (attack vector, launching fighters towards B5) but they turn off their stealth technology off on their fighters because they want the B5 starfuries to fire first. Minbari fighters have stealth technology."

That doesn't show fighters have ECM.

No it would not. Darth Vader would not be able to lock onto them and wouldn't be able to hit them.

He'd use the force.

I was talking about the nail pilot trying to steal air from a Star Wars ship. Those big fireballs were from exposed pipes being hit.

Probably because the fighters were not being jammed.

That would not make sense since they expected to be jammed.

The falcon's ability to hide its occupants from imperial scanners is not a point in favor of SW scanners.

You do realize B5 has a lot of smugglers right?

They did not take evasive actions on Hoth, they just flew in a straight line while under fire. Only TIE pilots seem to attempt this vs ships that aren't other fighters, as seen when they attacked the falcon in ANH.

ANH the only guy to be shot down was flying in a straight line.

Their failure to hit the ships can be easily interpreted as evidence of the prowess of the centauri ships. As demonstrated, centauri interceptor fire was rather accurate, despite from originating from the two main guns on the ship, The explosive nature of the centauri projectiles took care of the rest. Non-sentient objects are incapable of being cowards (or heroes for that matter)

It's proof of bad missile design.

What would they have done? Programming AI into the missiles to recognize and avoid counterfire while keeping a lock on their real target is extremely advanced technology. Only the shadows have been shown to be adept in this field of technology.

It's not as hard as you are making it out to be. It's just a simple matter of having the missiles avoid obvious obstacles. We can do that now with toys.

And they will always take the shortest path to their target. this will typically be a more or less straight line. Missiles will only make dramatic swooping maneuvers to match their targets maneuvering. The Vorchans did not maneuver, nor were they moving very fast. It stands to reason that the missiles would not have to adjust their trajectories much or at all.

Modern weapons can change where they are going after

And they will always take the shortest path to their target. this will typically be a more or less straight line. Missiles will only make dramatic swooping maneuvers to match their targets maneuvering. The Vorchans did not maneuver, nor were they moving very fast. It stands to reason that the missiles would not have to adjust their trajectories much or at all.

It depends on their programing.

Comparison to the vorcahn to the nial. The missile seems to be about the size of the body of an x-wing. The speed of the missiles seems to be within the combat speed of an x-wing. X-wings can go fast when they want to, but so can starfuries, although perhaps not as fast. Minbari fighters wouldn't have much trouble keeping up though, and are still easily as maneuverable as the rebel fighters.

That doesn't speak well of Babylon 5 fighters since missile should out perform them do to the lack of pilots.

They do not share the same appearance, but there is nothing to indicate that they carry varying amounts of firepower, as all of the bolts appear to be identical.

So, why should we expect the bolts to look different?

uh....they DID hit B5. They blew off one of the spines that hang off the front. Its stated that B5s interceptors were keeping the fire off of them. The centauri weaponry was enough to overwhelm the defenses briefly, and that's when it blew off a chunk of the station.

I suggest you watch the battle again. By your claims B5 should have not needed it's defenses, or B5 should have needed to counter ever shot, and the Narns should have been dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

Luke's ship gets hit several times after his gunner was killed, which seems to indicate he still had shields. It would appear that OT shields are either somewhat unreliable, or are only capable of deflecting glancing shots.

There are no mention of shields for the snow speeders. Why can't it just be armor?

You realize that several of those 'flack' hits were caused by TIEs, right? TIEs only have those two blasters/light turbolasers under the cockpit.

That doesn't really matter though since it is proof of flack function.

The TIE seem to come from the right, and the blasts from the left and or center to me.

The page for proton canon lists it as being confederacy technology and pre OT.

It's an energy weapon with a "flak" function, and all CIS systems were part of the Republic at one time, and later the Empire.

The falcon is still one of the ships the rebels have. Remember that admiral Lando decided to take it, instead of one of a B-wing, which were designed for combat.

Lando is who Han got the Falcon from in the first place, so he was already familiar with it.

Would you want to fly a death trap like a B-wing?

There is no on-screen evidence that they were anything but shuttles. If they were gunships, then why were they never fielded in combat during the OT?

There are eight very visible guns facing forward.

You could ask why more Rebels did not fly things like the Falcon rather then use real war ships, and the answer would likely be the same. They are made to transport people and things more then they are made to fight.

[Admiral Breetai]

But the planet killers make the Vorlons and Shadows less scary. ]

Vorlon PK's are tiny compared to the DS and they can do the same damage the other race uses what amounts too a bunch of spokes and a puffy cloud

that is about intimidating..and it works very well

They should have gone with tiny planet killers. Anyone can do big and powerful, but if you want to show off how advanced you are you go with as small as you can, and still get the job done. It's what makes White Star class ships so awesome.

your acting like they aren't a species of raging egomaniacs who're mentally unstable

The Shadows had to grow them somewhere, and had to be growing new battle crabs during each cycle. In the ground makes the most sense.

it is not a canon explanation

It always seemed like some really old tradition to me

not the stupid games the species general aggression apart from them

It's things like the planet killers were just for fun that make me not take the B% EU seriously.

that's not from the Eu shadow vessels have the power nail a narn colony and penetrate deep enough that big cracks and volcanic eruptions can be seen-a few hundred of them can probably lay waste to a planet

a gargantuan death cloud flying up and slowly killing your species while every one runs around in terror and fear is..how ever more personally satisfying

these species act based on their deep narcissism and egos and an adherence to their personal philosophies..not anything else

I'm looking at a Sharlin and not seeing it.

because..your looking for the wrong thing


[

We are given a run down of all the white star's defenses, and the don't mention it.

because it's a passive defense screen thats literally a side effect of their damn stardrive

"It's the Vorlons fualt" works better.

the vorlons made them arrogant but the raging violence and homocidal insanity and general all around stupidity seems something all they're own

Han's blaster from A New Hope just before leaving for Alderran

greedo's smoking head was because he ate a laser to the face

Slave-I when Fet is trying to kill Obi-won

looked like cheap watered down defiant phaser spam

[
Then what are we talking about?

you where trying to defend blasters having multiple megaton yields..i think which made me confuse you for some one else fer a second there kidding
[

It's from the novelization, and the quotes

I asked for the movie..not the novels

[N-1s for certain

excuse me?

I just like picking apart designs. It would make more sense if it showed as little of it's selfe to the enemy as it could at all times.

it's a trade ship not a war ship..they aren't warriors their fereingi wannabes for their region and needs its more then enough

[User1555]

So do a lot Babylon 5 craft that are considered equal or better then Star Fury.

Only Whitestars, starfuries, and thunderbolts do this.

They shoot down one, and you will notice no other fighter at the end of the battle besides those that survived the DS-II run.

Who dropped those fireworks at the end then?

That either means:

A) The dome was not a shield generator

B) The shields had already taken a pounding

C) The shield dome was not working for reasons aside from combat

The context does not imply any of those. If it wasn't a shield generator, then why was it shown being hit? If the shields had been taking a pounding, why didn't we see so much as a frame of turbolaser hitting the unshielded hull? Why would the shield dome not be working? Really? what reason could there possibly be? Electrician cut corners? None of this is so much implied, much less stated.

I suppose that is why we see the Falcon getting run down by several Star Destroyers.
7:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEZ_cn72 ... re=related

Funny, I seem to remember them jumping to hyperspace and escaping.

Porkins was shot down because he started flying in a straight line, and Star Fury do the ball turret thing with cap ships as well.

They do it to strafe capital ships. You realize you have to fly in a more or less straight line to do a strafing run, right? Kinda like how luke did it on the death star.

That doesn't show fighters have ECM.

ECM 'Electronic Counter Measures' These are designed to counter things like radar, scanners etc. Considering I have given examples to you on several occasions of them having this ability, I have no idea why you keep pressing this point. Drop it already.

He'd use the force.

I was talking about the nail pilot trying to steal air from a Star Wars ship. Those big fireballs were from exposed pipes being hit.

That wasn't what I was trying to prove at all. It was that a nial could easily pull off the same maneuver that the falcon did and hide on the back of a SD. Not that they'd necessarily need to, considering they have ECM.

That's a heck of a lot of pressurized air to make that explosion. Even if this was the case, I would hope that the Imperials don't pack pressurized air underneath every square inch of metal, that seems like a horrible idea. Either Luke got lucky, or the empire is made up of even bigger idiots then I thought. At any rate, that is another liability on the side of SW.

Darth Vader did not use the force on any of the pilots in the trench, even when he thought that 'the force is strong in (Luke)' he still used his targeting computer.

That would not make sense since they expected to be jammed.

Did they say they were being jammed? I don't remember this.

You do realize B5 has a lot of smugglers right?

What's you point? B5 scanners can't pick up smuggled substances any more then SW scanners can pick up droids on an escape pod.

ANH the only guy to be shot down was flying in a straight line.

Almost everyone who got shot down was flying in a straight line. Porkins was the only one one to get shot down by turbolasers while flying in a straight line.

It's proof of bad missile design.

What part? we can only really conclude that they go about as fast as a fighter and are destroyed by shots from enormous energy canons. Nothing about them seems to scream 'bad design' except their speed, meanwhile, in TPM we have those missiles that were fired at anakin....

It's not as hard as you are making it out to be. It's just a simple matter of having the missiles avoid obvious obstacles. We can do that now with toys.

And yet missiles in TPM don't have this ability either. Please point to the toys that can fly at missile speeds, and home onto their target while avoiding other projectiles.

Modern weapons can change where they are going after

Uh yeah......you do realize that those modern missiles can be shot down too, right? or confused with flares or chaff? Modern missiles DO NOT change direction to avoid other objects, they only fly towards the target they are locked on to. Since they seemed to be pretty much spot on in terms of accuracy up until the point they were destroyed, why do you think they would have to change direction?

It depends on their programing.

Modern missiles do not have this ability. It would be cost-prohibitive at any rate. Once again I point to TPM for missiles which you consider to be 'stupid', but those missiles had a much smaller excuse, considering the speed they were traveling relative to each other. The shots and missiles, by comparison, were traveling towards each other.

There are no mention of shields for the snow speeders. Why can't it just be armor?

The explosions that occurred were located off of the hull. We see what happens to landspeeders when the shots go through their shields, and even hits to the shields tend to bleed through-look at the damage to the canopy when luke climbs out.

So, why should we expect the bolts to look different?

There is a noticeable difference between the 'maximum firepower' blasters and the normal ones/normal setting. One would expect a visual difference between the various types of turbolaser if there was a firepower difference. Instead, all of the bolts look the same.

I suggest you watch the battle again. By your claims B5 should have not needed it's defenses, or B5 should have needed to counter ever shot, and the Narns should have been dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

The narn ship took evasive maneuvers. If you look when the ship is firing, the shots at the narn ship shouldn't have missed, but they did.

That doesn't speak well of Babylon 5 fighters since missile should out perform them do to the lack of pilots.

Fighters can perform evasive maneuvers. Missiles cannot. Theoretically missiles could probably do this, but that would be a waste of money on something that is going to get blown up if it reaches its target or not.

That doesn't really matter though since it is proof of flack function.

The TIE seem to come from the right, and the blasts from the left and or center to me.

It is not proof of flack if TIEs are doing it, since TIEs are not armed with proton guns, only their two blasters cannons/light turbolasers. We continue to see the 'flack' effect from TIEs after they have outrun the SDs.

It's an energy weapon with a "flak" function, and all CIS systems were part of the Republic at one time, and later the Empire.

Your claim that the empire used them isn't even backed up by the EU, and on screen evidence shows this happening frequently regardless of the ship doing the firing.

Lando is who Han got the Falcon from in the first place, so he was already familiar with it.

Would you want to fly a death trap like a B-wing?

Are B-wings deathtraps? do we ever see one get blown up on screen? None of the rebel fighters are seen to outperform the falcon, and that's the truth, rustbucket or not.

There are eight very visible guns facing forward.

You could ask why more Rebels did not fly things like the Falcon rather then use real war ships, and the answer would likely be the same. They are made to transport people and things more then they are made to fight.

All of the lambdas guns are forward facing. The falcon has an equal number of guns that are also capable of rotating. to track fighters. You keep on mentioning these there were better ships in the rebel fleet, but have yet to give any examples. Despite the fact that they have 'real warships' available, we never see these gunboats, or the transports for that matter. And really are these 'transports' that you group the falcon with really so weak that an x-wing or y wing is better? I really hope you aren't arguing that the falcon was worse then an x-wing.

[Lucky]

Vorlon PK's are tiny compared to the DS and they can do the same damage the other race uses what amounts too a bunch of spokes and a puffy cloud

that is about intimidating..and it works very well

The Vorlon and Shadow planet killers leave planets behind, and at times survivors.

While a waste of resources the Death Stars could at least do something the normal ships could not do.

your acting like they aren't a species of raging egomaniacs who're mentally unstable

We just have a different idea as to what is impressive.

it is not a canon explanation

The Shadows grow their ships, that's canon.

It would be stupid not to just make the battle crabs just grow in the ground where there is everything a growing battle crab could need.

that's not from the Eu shadow vessels have the power nail a narn colony and penetrate deep enough that big cracks and volcanic eruptions can be seen-a few hundred of them can probably lay waste to a planet

a gargantuan death cloud flying up and slowly killing your species while every one runs around in terror and fear is..how ever more personally satisfying

these species act based on their deep narcissism and egos and an adherence to their personal philosophies..not anything else

Sorry, I don't buy the idea that the planet killers were attempts to show off.

because..your looking for the wrong thing

Sharlin have gravity drives, and I was looking at a paused image of one. No where in the image is anything like what you described that I could see.

because it's a passive defense screen thats literally a side effect of their damn stardrive

And that I can't find any evidence of in the series.

the vorlons made them arrogant but the raging violence and homocidal insanity and general all around stupidity seems something all they're own

I believe I was talking about the near useless armor on their ships, but the Vorlons did a lot of genetic reengineering as I recall.

greedo's smoking head was because he ate a laser to the face

I was talking about in the docking bay just before they left for Alderran.

looked like cheap watered down defiant phaser spam

As I recall those asteroids explode omnidirectional.

you where trying to defend blasters having multiple megaton yields..i think which made me confuse you for some one else fer a second there kidding

I never made any claims concerning blaster yields. Blasters have recoil similar to NATO rounds for some reason. I don't think the recoil has anything to do with the yield.

I asked for the movie..not the novels

Since when is this debate movies only?

excuse me?

You asked for fighters with shields, and the N-1 from Episode 1 has shields for certain.

it's a trade ship not a war ship..they aren't warriors their fereingi wannabes for their region and needs its more then enough

It's still a bad design of what is expected to a war ship if need be.

You do realize the fereingi had some pretty high end ships by Star Trek standards?

[Admiral Breetai]

The Vorlon and Shadow planet killers leave planets behind, and at times survivors.

shadow PK's do because it inspires terror vorlon PK's leave behind asteroid fields and nothing else..as was shown in one ep

and the shadows can pulverize a planets vorlon style as shown when they suicided Zha'dum

While a waste of resources the Death Stars could at least do something the normal ships could not do.

so can Vorlons and shadows

We just have a different idea as to what is impressive.

how long has it been since you've seen b5

The Shadows grow their ships, that's canon.

yes it is not in mars

It would be stupid not to just make the battle crabs just grow in the ground where there is everything a growing battle crab could need.

and yet anna and some others described the one on mars taking a million year dirt nap

Sorry, I don't buy the idea that the planet killers were attempts to show off.

but they where..your not a dealing with a competent tactical species your dealing with an entire race of hitlers on one side..and Billy Graham fused with Madona on the other

Sharlin have gravity drives, and I was looking at a paused image of one. No where in the image is anything like what you described that I could see.

what where you looking for?

And that I can't find any evidence of in the series.

it's part of the standard drive

I believe I was talking about the near useless armor on their ships, but the Vorlons did a lot of genetic reengineering as I recall.

they screwed the species over something feirce and foderized them at the end

I was talking about in the docking bay just before they left for Alderran.

when he shot at troopers?

As I recall those asteroids explode omnidirectional.

so? it still looked like generic energy blasts to me

Since when is this debate movies only?

since when is it not in my threads? movies tv show..everything else..iiiffffyyy

You asked for fighters with shields, and the N-1 from Episode 1 has shields for certain.

special circumstances?

It's still a bad design of what is expected to a war ship if need be.[

it's not a warship

You do realize the fereingi had some pretty high end ships by Star Trek standards?

yes but they weren't warships proper

[Lucky]

shadow PK's do because it inspires terror vorlon PK's leave behind asteroid fields and nothing else..as was shown in one ep

Both leave behind planets in the series, and at times survivors.

You're remembering the Vorlon ships moving through an asteroid field that is not said to be the planet.

and the shadows can pulverize a planets vorlon style as shown when they suicided Zha'dum

The Shadows used an unknown method to blow up their planet. It doesn't take first one tech to do it. It just takes a big bomb of unknown size

so can Vorlons and shadows

A Minbari fleet was planning to do to Earth what a a Vorlon and Shadow planet killer does, and the planet killers need escort fleets anyway.

how long has it been since you've seen b5

What's it matter?

yes it is not in mars

and yet anna and some others described the one on mars taking a million year dirt nap

Provide the quote since I don't recall it.

but they where..your not a dealing with a competent tactical species your dealing with an entire race of hitlers on one side..and Billy Graham fused with Madona on the other

Forgive me, but could you rephrase this? It might make sense to you, but it doesn't make sense me.

what where you looking for?

Anything that could be a sign of what you were talking about. There is no field, distortion, or what ever.

it's part of the standard drive

Prove it with screen caps.

they screwed the species over something feirce and foderized them at the end

Yep, but it is possible the Minbari crystal armor is optimised for Shadow weapons, or the Vorlons wanted/needed the circle to work out what with the B4 being in the mix.

when he shot at troopers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEZ_cn72 ... re=related
They blasts look like buried explosives in the docking/lacking bay

Gweedo seemed like he might have a hole going through his chest after Han shot him.

so? it still looked like generic energy blasts to me

It;'s technobabble. The bolt tunnels into the target, and then explodes. That means that the exploding asteroids are basically being destroyed by buried charges.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... +Asteroids

since when is it not in my threads? movies tv show..everything else..iiiffffyyy

It needs to be stated in the OP. Most people at this site don't use much information below T-level, but G-level includes the movies, movie novelizations, scripts, and radio dramas.

The six movies on their own don't give you much to go on.

special circumstances?

The N-1 has shields standard, and we see in the N-1 VS destroyer droid that if a blaster/laser is strong enough it will seem like there is no shield.

it's not a warship

That is kind of like saying the Galaxy-class isn't a warship. The Vree clearly intend them as warships

yes but they weren't warships proper

It was owned by fereingi mercenaries.

[User1555]

Lucky, did you not notice my last post? You haven't replied to it yet.

Does it matter how shadow ships are grown or where? They are obviously organic, so we know that they must be grown somehow. I would think the end result would be more important then the process. Whatever shadow growing technology is, we know that they are capable of growing objects as big as the shadow planet killer, so a giant battle crab probably wouldn't be out of the question. ditto for mass-produced normal battlecrabs.

Warship or not, vree saucers are heavily armed, fast, and maneuverable for a craft of their size. I would tentatively put them in the same class of warship as the whitestars, vorchans and the millennium falcon-heavily armed, fast moving, and moderately sized. Perhaps gunboats would be the correct term?

Planet killers have to take a while to erase the population of a planet. During this time, it is entirely possible for people to be injured by seismic activity, environmental upheaval, etc. It's also possible for people to escape on ships, although unlikely-as evidenced by the whitestar being ordered to rescue people on the planet.

The survivors and wounded of the vorlon PK could easily be resultant from a similar environmental upset prior to the complete destruction of the planet. Vorlon planet killers are designed to destroy entire planets, while shadow vessels are designed to maximize fear. Both the shadows and the vorlons had at least two planet killers active at the same time, which indicates that either race would likely be at an advantage if the Empire invaded the B5 galaxy and tried to start blowing stuff up with the DS or DSII, not the sort of arms race they'd want to compete in.

Honestly, I can't see the Empire winning if they invaded the B5 galaxy. In most cases technology is comparable, and B5 seems to have an edge in numbers-even the Brakiri (as poor as their ships are) could field a fleet surpassing the rebel fleet or perhaps even the Imperial fleet in size if not ability. If the younger races team up, or the vorlons/shadows decide they don't like the Imperials, there isn't really much the Empire can do except go back to the wormhole and plant the deathstar on their end facing it.

The only way I can see the SW forces winning would be if the shadows or vorlons decided to help either the rebels or Imperials, but that would just end up with the other siding with whichever one wasn't supported by their enemy.

Seeing a Stardestroyer get the OmegaX treatment would be cool though.