The Invasion of the b 5 Galaxy

[Lucky]

Only Whitestars, starfuries, and thunderbolts do this.

So only three ships designs can rotate, and you are claiming it is a major advantage?

Who dropped those fireworks at the end then?

I'd love to know how fast those ships were moving. That seems like it might be the fastest we see anything move in the movies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHX3mAbyrs
I count about 8 of those ships, but you've been arguing that Star Wars ships can't move like that.

What makes you think those fireworks were fireworks over Endor, and not peaces of the Death Star-II. Heck given the wonkyness of the DA-II's destruction we could be looking at peaces of the DS-II burning up in various atmospheres.

The context does not imply any of those.

The context implies that the SSD had been and still was was taking a heavy beating.


They make more sense then fighters being able to eassily take down the shield on their own that is meant to protect against far more powerful weapons.

If it wasn't a shield generator, then why was it shown being hit?

To show the shield was down.

It could have been a sensor dome.

If the shields had been taking a pounding, why didn't we see so much as a frame of turbolaser hitting the unshielded hull?

We did, and that was before the order to blast the bleep out of the SSD was given. We don't know how much time went by between the order, and the shield going down.

Why would the shield dome not be working? Really? what reason could there possibly be? Electrician cut corners? None of this is so much implied, much less stated.

Why does anything not work right in the real world? Parts can be defective.

The force did it?

Funny, I seem to remember them jumping to hyperspace and escaping.

The Falcon is only fast when it comes to Hyper-space. The Star Destroyers like a lot of things are faster then the Falcon at STL. The Star Destroyers were gaining on the Falcon, and that means they are faster.

They do it to strafe capital ships. You realize you have to fly in a more or less straight line to do a strafing run, right? Kinda like how luke did it on the death star.

And while strafing star Fury coast like Porkins.

ECM 'Electronic Counter Measures' These are designed to counter things like radar, scanners etc. Considering I have given examples to you on several occasions of them having this ability, I have no idea why you keep pressing this point. Drop it already.

You have only given one example that shows fighters having ECM systems.

That wasn't what I was trying to prove at all. It was that a nial could easily pull off the same maneuver that the falcon did and hide on the back of a SD. Not that they'd necessarily need to, considering they have ECM.

That is a matter of the captain being stupid.

That's a heck of a lot of pressurized air to make that explosion. Even if this was the case, I would hope that the Imperials don't pack pressurized air underneath every square inch of metal, that seems like a horrible idea. Either Luke got lucky, or the empire is made up of even bigger idiots then I thought. At any rate, that is another liability on the side of SW.

You are assuming that is something you would want to breath.

Darth Vader did not use the force on any of the pilots in the trench, even when he thought that 'the force is strong in (Luke)' he still used his targeting computer.

That is Vader being an idiot since if he had just shot sooner he would have hit his target.

Did they say they were being jammed? I don't remember this.

I believe it is from the novel version of the movie.

What's you point? B5 scanners can't pick up smuggled substances any more then SW scanners can pick up droids on an escape pod.

The droids aren't suppose to use the escape pods. It's a bit of plot based stupidity.

Almost everyone who got shot down was flying in a straight line. Porkins was the only one one to get shot down by turbolasers while flying in a straight line.

You do realize that only Porkins and the people going for the exhaust port flew in straight lines.

What part? we can only really conclude that they go about as fast as a fighter and are destroyed by shots from enormous energy canons. Nothing about them seems to scream 'bad design' except their speed, meanwhile,

I think you mean slower then fighters. I don't recall fighters in either setting going that slowly.

in TPM we have those missiles that were fired at anakin....

You mean the short range proton torpedos?

And yet missiles in TPM don't have this ability either.

You mean proton torpedos that can make near 90 degree turns?

Please point to the toys that can fly at missile speeds, and home onto their target while avoiding other projectiles.

Furbies

Uh yeah......you do realize that those modern missiles can be shot down too, right?

Not easily

or confused with flares or chaff?

Not very effective.

Modern missiles DO NOT change direction to avoid other objects, they only fly towards the target they are locked on to. Since they seemed to be pretty much spot on in terms of accuracy up until the point they were destroyed, why do you think they would have to change direction?

Are we both talking about cruse missiles?

Modern missiles do not have this ability. It would be cost-prohibitive at any rate.

A missile that can't hit it's target is worse.

Once again I point to TPM for missiles which you consider to be 'stupid', but those missiles had a much smaller excuse, considering the speed they were traveling relative to each other. The shots and missiles, by comparison, were traveling towards each other.

The proton torpedos hit their targets. The problem was they were not powerful enough models.

The explosions that occurred were located off of the hull. We see what happens to landspeeders when the shots go through their shields, and even hits to the shields tend to bleed through-look at the damage to the canopy when luke climbs out.

Flack mode deal with it.

There is a noticeable difference between the 'maximum firepower' blasters and the normal ones/normal setting. One would expect a visual difference between the various types of turbolaser if there was a firepower difference. Instead, all of the bolts look the same.

Why should we expect them to look different when even when we know they are at full power they don't look different from lesser bolts?

The narn ship took evasive maneuvers. If you look when the ship is firing, the shots at the narn ship shouldn't have missed, but they did.

Yes a Narn ship that could barely move dodged enemy fire. Do you realize how bad that sounds ^_^

Fighters can perform evasive maneuvers. Missiles cannot. Theoretically missiles could probably do this, but that would be a waste of money on something that is going to get blown up if it reaches its target or not.

If you use missiles that can not hit the target what is the point of using missiles?

It is not proof of flack if TIEs are doing it, since TIEs are not armed with proton guns, only their two blasters cannons/light turbolasers. We continue to see the 'flack' effect from TIEs after they have outrun the SDs.

We see Slave-one do it, TIE fighters, AT-AT. Face, it Star Wars guns have a flak capability.

Your claim that the empire used them isn't even backed up by the EU, and on screen evidence shows this happening frequently regardless of the ship doing the firing.

I never claimed the Empire used proton cannons. It is just one more weapon that fires "flak".

Are B-wings deathtraps? do we ever see one get blown up on screen? None of the rebel fighters are seen to outperform the falcon, and that's the truth, rustbucket or not.

B-wings are horrible designs, and we see none at the end of the Battle of Endor.

A-wing and X-ing out perform the Falcon.

All of the lambdas guns are forward facing. The falcon has an equal number of guns that are also capable of rotating. to track fighters.

The Falcon's turrets have limited firing arcs. The Lambda's firing arcs should be as good if not better then the Falcon's at Endor.

I suggest you take a close look at the pictures of the Lambda. It has a turret facing backwards, two turrets facing forwards,and another four guns facing forwards. It's what the Falcon would be if it was meant for combat

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lambda-c ... 4a_shuttle

You keep on mentioning these there were better ships in the rebel fleet, but have yet to give any examples. Despite the fact that they have 'real warships' available, we never see these gunboats, or the transports for that matter. And really are these 'transports' that you group the falcon with really so weak that an x-wing or y wing is better? I really hope you aren't arguing that the falcon was worse then an x-wing.

The Rebels had actual war ships at Endor that could go one on one with Star Destroyers.

We see several craft a little bigger then the Falcon, but more heavily armed.

An X-wing while being smaller, faster, more maneuverable, and carries as much if not more firepower.

The Falcon is an up armored Winnebago running around with Strikers and tanks

Lucky, did you not notice my last post? You haven't replied to it yet.

Yep.

Does it matter how shadow ships are grown or where? They are obviously organic, so we know that they must be grown somehow. I would think the end result would be more important then the process. Whatever shadow growing technology is, we know that they are capable of growing objects as big as the shadow planet killer, so a giant battle crab probably wouldn't be out of the question. ditto for mass-produced normal battlecrabs.

It's kind of off topic, and doesn't really matter

Warship or not, vree saucers are heavily armed, fast, and maneuverable for a craft of their size. I would tentatively put them in the same class of warship as the whitestars, vorchans and the millennium falcon-heavily armed, fast moving, and moderately sized. Perhaps gunboats would be the correct term?

The Falcan is armed lightly

Planet killers have to take a while to erase the population of a planet. During this time, it is entirely possible for people to be injured by seismic activity, environmental upheaval, etc. It's also possible for people to escape on ships, although unlikely-as evidenced by the whitestar being ordered to rescue people on the planet.

The survivors and wounded of the vorlon PK could easily be resultant from a similar environmental upset prior to the complete destruction of the planet. Vorlon planet killers are designed to destroy entire planets, while shadow vessels are designed to maximize fear. Both the shadows and the vorlons had at least two planet killers active at the same time, which indicates that either race would likely be at an advantage if the Empire invaded the B5 galaxy and tried to start blowing stuff up with the DS or DSII, not the sort of arms race they'd want to compete in.

Actual destroying the planet would likely in fact be counter productive to both the Vorlon and Shadow. Didn't they plan to repopulate the planets?

Honestly, I can't see the Empire winning if they invaded the B5 galaxy. In most cases technology is comparable, and B5 seems to have an edge in numbers-even the Brakiri (as poor as their ships are) could field a fleet surpassing the rebel fleet or perhaps even the Imperial fleet in size if not ability. If the younger races team up, or the vorlons/shadows decide they don't like the Imperials, there isn't really much the Empire can do except go back to the wormhole and plant the deathstar on their end facing it.

The only way I can see the SW forces winning would be if the shadows or vorlons decided to help either the rebels or Imperials, but that would just end up with the other siding with whichever one wasn't supported by their enemy.

Seeing a Stardestroyer get the OmegaX treatment would be cool though.

It always comes down to the first ones winning the day for Babylon five

[User1555]

So only three ships designs can rotate, and you are claiming it is a major advantage?

They are three of the most common ships.

I'd love to know how fast those ships were moving. That seems like it might be the fastest we see anything move in the movies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHX3mAbyrs
I count about 8 of those ships, but you've been arguing that Star Wars ships can't move like that.

What makes you think those fireworks were fireworks over Endor, and not peaces of the Death Star-II. Heck given the wonkyness of the DA-II's destruction we could be looking at peaces of the DS-II burning up in various atmospheres.

If those were chunks of the DS II, people wouldn't be partying on the surface.

The context implies that the SSD had been and still was was taking a heavy beating.


They make more sense then fighters being able to eassily take down the shield on their own that is meant to protect against far more powerful weapons.

The shields do not go down until one of the domes on the bridge is destroyed, then one of the officers specifically states that they lost their bridge deflector shields. Evidently the SDs, or at least the SSDs have more then one shield, and they cover different parts of the ship.

To show the shield was down.

It could have been a sensor dome.

Then why didn't anyone say 'sir, the sensors are down'? The order of events is 1) dome destroyed by fighters 2) bridge shakes 3) and then they lose their 'bridge deflection shields'. Are you implying that they only realized that shields were down when the dome was destroyed? If so, then that Imperial officer must have been incredibly incompetent to not notice the readings on his console until damage had already been done. Either that, or his position on the bridge was 'captain obvious'.

We did, and that was before the order to blast the bleep out of the SSD was given. We don't know how much time went by between the order, and the shield going down.

We know that the dome is destroyed in a big fireball, the bridge shakes, and the shields on the bridge go down in consecutive order in an extremely short amount of time. In this timeframe, we never see the bridge get hit by shots from anything other then those two fighters. There is no reason to claim the fleet ships were firing on the bridge, they could have been firing at other sections of the ship. Consider that piet was concerned with fighters getting through, he didn't say something like 'bring us out of range of their turbolasers' he said 'intensify forward batteries, I don't want anything getting through'

Why does anything not work right in the real world? Parts can be defective.

The force did it?

On the flagship of the empire, the shield generator would be in working order.

We did, and that was before the order to blast the bleep out of the SSD was given. We don't know how much time went by between the order, and the shield going down.

You realize that the first thing that happens after Ackbar gives the order is that the SSDs dome is shot and destroyed by fighters, right?

The Falcon is only fast when it comes to Hyper-space. The Star Destroyers like a lot of things are faster then the Falcon at STL. The Star Destroyers were gaining on the Falcon, and that means they are faster.

It proves that Han wasn't full of hot air when he made that boast.

And while strafing star Fury coast like Porkins.

Anything strafing takes a hit to maneuverability when strafing. Are you arguing that Luke didn't leave himself wide open when he strafed the death star? He flew in a straight line while firing.

You have only given one example that shows fighters having ECM systems.

I have given two. One should be sufficient at any rate, considering there is no contradictory material.

That is a matter of the captain being stupid.

It shows that SW sensors can't pick up objects behind them very well, and that they cannot distinguish between space junk and a spaceship. B5 sensors can detect objects as small as a teddy bear.

You are assuming that is something you would want to breath.

Fire requires oxygen, it looked like fire, so I assumed it was oxygen. At any rate, it is a horrible design flaw to have pipes of flammable ANYTHING overlying the surface of something designed to go into combat.

That is Vader being an idiot since if he had just shot sooner he would have hit his target.

Going by how often you blame failings on incompetence rather then technological inequities, the Empire must be one heckuva incompetent organization. Technological limitations or incompetence, neither is a point in the favor of the empire.

I believe it is from the novel version of the movie.

They had no such problems in the movie. They had no problem with comms. There is no indication that their targeting was being affected either, since both rebels and imperials seem to have trouble using targeting computers.

The droids aren't suppose to use the escape pods. It's a bit of plot based stupidity.

Kinda like 2 megaton warheads blowing up a sharlin in space, eh? At any rate, they are explicitly implied to have scanned it and not picked up the droids. It implies technological limitations, not incompetence.

You do realize that only Porkins and the people going for the exhaust port flew in straight lines.

I have cited the Battle of Hoth, Endor, and luke making his straffing run. Additionally there are plenty of times at Endor where we see fighters fly in a straight line while they have fighters on their tails, particularly TIEs.

I think you mean slower then fighters. I don't recall fighters in either setting going that slowly.

That speed is within observed combat speed for both sides.

Not easily

We have guns mounted on modern ships that can shoot down incoming missiles.

You mean the short range proton torpedos?

They collided with each other, meanwhile, only half of the proton torpedo from ANH hit their target.

Furbies

Furbies do not demonstrate any of that.

Not very effective.

Better then nothing, which is what SW has.

Are we both talking about cruse missiles?

Those were not cruise missiles, and cruise missiels do not take evasive maneuvers, they just climb to a height that makes them difficult to intercept. MODERN MISSILES DO NOT HAVE THIS CAPABILITY.

You mean proton torpedos that can make near 90 degree turns?

For all we know, they could be preset to make that turn at a certain distance from the craft. At any rate, they were only used twice in all of the OT, and they missed half of the time.

A missile that can't hit it's target is worse.

Like the Proton torpedoes from ANH? We do not know if the missiles would have hit, because they were destroyed before they would have gotten the chance. none of them flew past the ships, so there is no reason to assume that they are dumbfire.

The proton torpedos hit their targets. The problem was they were not powerful enough models.

Anakin spun his ship and they hit each other and exploded. Real great evasive maneuvers built into those proton torpedoes, huh?

Flack mode deal with it.

All blasters/turbolasers do this. They are hitting the shields. And exploding, on the shields. We don't see 'flack mode' when shots are fired at unshielded targets, such as the rear portions of fighters in ANH, and ground forces in ESB. You already defined blasters as tunneling into their targets and then exploding, don't try to redefine what you already claimed.

The Falcon's turrets have limited firing arcs. The Lambda's firing arcs should be as good if not better then the Falcon's at Endor.

I suggest you take a close look at the pictures of the Lambda. It has a turret facing backwards, two turrets facing forwards,and another four guns facing forwards. It's what the Falcon would be if it was meant for combat

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lambda-c ... 4a_shuttle

the falcons guns can hit anything above or below it, and is thinner then a TIE, so hitting TIEs behind it and in front of it is not a problem either. The Lambda has fixed guns.

The Falcan is armed lightly

I'm sure all those dead TIE fighter pilots that attacked it in ANH would disagree.

The Rebels had actual war ships at Endor that could go one on one with Star Destroyers.

We see several craft a little bigger then the Falcon, but more heavily armed.

An X-wing while being smaller, faster, more maneuverable, and carries as much if not more firepower.

The Falcon is an up armored Winnebago running around with Strikers and tanks

We never see any of these other ships fire. The x-wing is not demonstratively more agile, only smaller. It has half as many heavy blasters as the Falcon.

Why should we expect them to look different when even when we know they are at full power they don't look different from lesser bolts?

The ATAT have two different kinds of guns that fire different sized bolts. The ones the fire at the generator were thicker then either.

Yes a Narn ship that could barely move dodged enemy fire. Do you realize how bad that sounds ^_^

Did you not notice how far away they were? Even moving as sluggishly as they were, they were able to dodge at least the first volley.

If you use missiles that can not hit the target what is the point of using missiles?

Drazi missiles did not hit their targets because they were shot down, not because they were evaded or missed. If you are going to put advanced AI into something like that and then blow it up, you might as well just make AI fighters.

We see Slave-one do it, TIE fighters, AT-AT. Face, it Star Wars guns have a flak capability.

This is consistent with any time shielded ships are fired upon.

I never claimed the Empire used proton cannons. It is just one more weapon that fires "flak".

You claimed that they had access to them.

B-wings are horrible designs, and we see none at the end of the Battle of Endor.

A-wing and X-ing out perform the Falcon.

B-wings have no on-screen evidence for competency or incompetency. Their presence at the end of the battle means nothing. A/X wings do not outperform the falcon. The only abilities that they have demonstrated that surpass the falcon is their ability to fit into smaller places.

Actual destroying the planet would likely in fact be counter productive to both the Vorlon and Shadow. Didn't they plan to repopulate the planets?

The vorlon planet killers destroy planets, shadow planet killers make them uninhabitable.

It always comes down to the first ones winning the day for Babylon five

Did you not read the part where 'if the younger races team up' they would likely win?
The first ones are always going to be a factor in B5 space in an invasion scenario pre-corianna.

[Lucky]

They are three of the most common ships.

Most seen does not equal most common.

The White Star are only used by the Rangers.

Star Fury are only used by the Earth Alliance.

If those were chunks of the DS II, people wouldn't be partying on the surface.

Most of the DS-II would miss the planet/moon, and those peaces that hit would mostly be to small to do anything beyond a light show in the short term at least. The big chunks would be broken up with those small town vaporizing guns.

There was no Endor Holocaust much to the disappointment of the Storm Troopers stationed there. Ewoks are nasty buggers.
http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/files/endor/
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Apocalypse_Endor

The shields do not go down until one of the domes on the bridge is destroyed, then one of the officers specifically states that they lost their bridge deflector shields. Evidently the SDs, or at least the SSDs have more then one shield, and they cover different parts of the ship.

Or the dome is destroyed when the officer is reporting the shields are down. We don't know exactly why the shield went down at that point we just know that it went down.

It's rather hard to believe the shield went down because of a few shots from a single fighter while we see other craft take worse.

What makes you think the dome is anything important?

Then why didn't anyone say 'sir, the sensors are down'? The order of events is 1) dome destroyed by fighters 2) bridge shakes 3) and then they lose their 'bridge deflection shields'. Are you implying that they only realized that shields were down when the dome was destroyed? If so, then that Imperial officer must have been incredibly incompetent to not notice the readings on his console until damage had already been done. Either that, or his position on the bridge was 'captain obvious'.

You are assuming that the report given to the captain happens after the dome is destroyed, and not at the same time. Given we see no sign of a shield when the A-wing fires

Then why didn't anyone say 'sir, the sensors are down'? The order of events is 1) dome destroyed by fighters 2) bridge shakes 3) and then they lose their 'bridge deflection shields'. Are you implying that they only realized that shields were down when the dome was destroyed? If so, then that Imperial officer must have been incredibly incompetent to not notice the readings on his console until damage had already been done. Either that, or his position on the bridge was 'captain obvious'.

I can't find anything in the movie that says the A-wings didn't fire after the shield was down, and the report was not given at about the same time.

We know that the dome is destroyed in a big fireball, the bridge shakes, and the shields on the bridge go down in consecutive order in an extremely short amount of time. In this timeframe, we never see the bridge get hit by shots from anything other then those two fighters. There is no reason to claim the fleet ships were firing on the bridge, they could have been firing at other sections of the ship. Consider that piet was concerned with fighters getting through, he didn't say something like 'bring us out of range of their turbolasers' he said 'intensify forward batteries, I don't want anything getting through'

You are assuming that the A-wing attack happens before the report, and not during, and that the A-wings brought down the shield. You can't prove either from the movie.

On the flagship of the empire, the shield generator would be in working order.

Sounds like something someone would sabotage.

You realize that the first thing that happens after Ackbar gives the order is that the SSDs dome is shot and destroyed by fighters, right?

The problem is that we see the SSD under attack from Ackbar's point of view before during and after he gives the order.

Sorry, but we can't tell what brought down the shields, and we have no reason to think they were even up when the A-wing attack the dome.

We have no idea how long after the order is given the scene with the A-wings takes place. Remember all the rebel fighters tried to make an attack on the reactor of the DS-II.

It proves that Han wasn't full of hot air when he made that boast.

Sorry to break it to you, but we have no way of knowing Han was telling the truth, and in the case of the Battle of Endor hyper-drive speeds would be meaningless. Han is a rather poor lier, just look at ANH.

Anything strafing takes a hit to maneuverability when strafing. Are you arguing that Luke didn't leave himself wide open when he strafed the death star? He flew in a straight line while firing.

That is what we are told, and shown unlike Star Fury Star Wars Fighters don't just lazily float in straight lines without getting shot down.

I have given two. One should be sufficient at any rate, considering there is no contradictory material.

I never said one example was not enough. You however wanted to use proof that Minbari capital ship have super ECM as proof that Minbari fighters had something similar.

It shows that SW sensors can't pick up objects behind them very well, and that they cannot distinguish between space junk and a spaceship. B5 sensors can detect objects as small as a teddy bear.

Prove B5 sensors can see through objects like a Star Destroyer's command tower.

Someone not using the known capabilities of their ship is not proof the ship can not do something. Star Wars fighters have life sign detectors just like Star Destroyers. The Falcon not being spotted is a case of the sensors just not being used rather then not being able to do the job. Boba Fett spotted the Falcon after all.

You seem to have a point about the teddy bear.

Fire requires oxygen, it looked like fire, so I assumed it was oxygen. At any rate, it is a horrible design flaw to have pipes of flammable ANYTHING overlying the surface of something designed to go into combat.

Think about how useless the thermal exhaust port was given there is no atmosphere in space. The DS-I was very poorly designed.

Going by how often you blame failings on incompetence rather then technological inequities, the Empire must be one heckuva incompetent organization. Technological limitations or incompetence, neither is a point in the favor of the empire.

That is pretty much the Emperors fault by design.

They had no such problems in the movie. They had no problem with comms. There is no indication that their targeting was being affected either, since both rebels and imperials seem to have trouble using targeting computers.

I suggest you check the Battle of Endor for clear examples of jamming.

Kinda like 2 megaton warheads blowing up a sharlin in space, eh?

Not really. Minbari armor sucks

At any rate, they are explicitly implied to have scanned it and not picked up the droids. It implies technological limitations, not incompetence.

They scanned the escape pod, and saw no life signs.

I have cited the Battle of Hoth, Endor, and luke making his straffing run. Additionally there are plenty of times at Endor where we see fighters fly in a straight line while they have fighters on their tails, particularly TIEs.

Go to a site like YouTube, find a video of the scene, and then give a time stamp about a second before the scene.

The TIE died quickly.

That speed is within observed combat speed for both sides.

Prove how fast the fighters move in Babylon 5 and Star Wars.

We have guns mounted on modern ships that can shoot down incoming missiles.

Phalanx CIWS literally lay down a wall of bullets to hit the target, and you may want to read up on the missiles they target.

One thing to keep in mind is we currently design our missile defense systems to deal with objects that take evasive action, but the Centauri don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids ... 29_pdf.pdf

They collided with each other, meanwhile, only half of the proton torpedo from ANH hit their target.

The only missiles I can think of are at the beginning of Episode three. The set sent after Obi-won worked perfectly.

All the shots came close or hit a tiny target in ANH.

Furbies do not demonstrate any of that.

Furbies show the ability to build things that respond to sensory input.

Better then nothing, which is what SW has.

Come again? What doesn't Star Wars have?

Those were not cruise missiles, and cruise missiels do not take evasive maneuvers, they just climb to a height that makes them difficult to intercept. MODERN MISSILES DO NOT HAVE THIS CAPABILITY.

Strange because I found two sources that said that we currently have anti-ship missiles that do take action to try not to be hit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids ... 29_pdf.pdf

For all we know, they could be preset to make that turn at a certain distance from the craft. At any rate, they were only used twice in all of the OT, and they missed half of the time.

It proves proton torpedos can make some very extreme maneuvers.

Like the Proton torpedoes from ANH?

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The Drazi missiles are unable to even get into range, and blow up if a shot even comes near them.

The proton torpedos in ANH were being used to hit an abnormally small target, and those that missed were only a few meters off target.

We do not know if the missiles would have hit, because they were destroyed before they would have gotten the chance. none of them flew past the ships, so there is no reason to assume that they are dumbfire.

Given they blew up if a shot just came near them...

Anakin spun his ship and they hit each other and exploded. Real great evasive maneuvers built into those proton torpedoes, huh?

You said "The Phantom Menace" also known as "Episode One". The only missiles that did not work as intended were the proton torpedos.

All blasters/turbolasers do this. They are hitting the shields. And exploding, on the shields. We don't see 'flack mode' when shots are fired at unshielded targets, such as the rear portions of fighters in ANH, and ground forces in ESB. You already defined blasters as tunneling into their targets and then exploding, don't try to redefine what you already claimed.

Prove that those are shield hits.

the falcons guns can hit anything above or below it, and is thinner then a TIE, so hitting TIEs behind it and in front of it is not a problem either. The Lambda has fixed guns.

the falcons guns can hit anything above or below it, and is thinner then a TIE, so hitting TIEs behind it and in front of it is not a problem either. The Lambda has fixed guns.

Since we never see this in the movies you must be bringing in that wanked out EU for Star Wars.

I'm sure all those dead TIE fighter pilots that attacked it in ANH would disagree.

Having a couple of AA guns hardly makes something heavily armed. The Falcon lacks anti-capital ship weapons.

We never see any of these other ships fire.

They directly engage the Star Destroyers and SSD. We see them shooting, and destroying Star Destroyers, and damaging SSD.

The x-wing is not demonstratively more agile,

Given the fixed nature of the fighter's weapons it has to be more agile. Remember TIE fly circles around the Falcon in the literal sense.

It has half as many heavy blasters as the Falcon.

I don't recall the two ships having much difference in rate of fire.

The ATAT have two different kinds of guns that fire different sized bolts. The ones the fire at the generator were thicker then either.

That's nice, but we are talking about Star Destroyers, and all their guns we can see are about the same size. Why should we assume a full power shot will look any different from a less powerful shot from the same gun?

Did you not notice how far away they were? Even moving as sluggishly as they were, they were able to dodge at least the first volley.

I didn't see the Narn ship even try to dodge, and they could barely move. Prove the Narn ship dodged.

The ranges looked to be close range for Babylon 5 ships. We see the lowly Narn engage Shadow Battle crabs at greater distances.

Drazi missiles did not hit their targets because they were shot down, not because they were evaded or missed. If you are going to put advanced AI into something like that and then blow it up, you might as well just make AI fighters.

Thank you this was good for a laugh.

You don't need an AI to make a missile that tries to dodge.

The Drazi missiles exploded because the shots came near them at times. They are poorly designed.

This is consistent with any time shielded ships are fired upon.

You need to prove it. Mr.O has a nice little threads on this.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?p=3411599
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3423

You claimed that they had access to them.

The USA has access to AK-47s, but does not make much if any use of them. The Empire would have had access to proton cannons if simply capturing them during the Clone War, or that the design was lost.

B-wings have no on-screen evidence for competency or incompetency.

The design is inherently flawed if only for the simple reason of being over complicated.

A/X wings do not outperform the falcon.

Sure they do. They are equal or better then TIE that literally fly circles around the Falcon.

The vorlon planet killers destroy planets,

Prove it.
How do you explain people being able to return to a planet targeted by the Vorlon planet killer?

How do you explain survivors?

Did you not read the part where 'if the younger races team up' they would likely win?

I read it, but you have yet to prove it. The younger races are at a major disadvantage, and even if they work together they will not share tech.

Star Wars ships are faster, and can take more damage as shown. The Empire would not invade unless they thought they had the numbers to do that.

The first ones are always going to be a factor in B5 space in an invasion scenario pre-corianna.

The First one save the day because the younger races go down to 200 megawatt pulse cannons.

Please note that 200 megawatts is a lot of energy to be fired in a directed pulse.

[User1555]

Most seen does not equal most common.

The White Star are only used by the Rangers.

Star Fury are only used by the Earth Alliance.

Narn fighters are also capable of a similar maneuver. The only types of fighter that don't perform this maneuver are Drazi, Centauri , Shadow, and Drakh fighters. Vorlon fighters use this maneuver when attacking a shadow battlecrab prior to kosh's assassination and shadow scout ships use this maneuver, although their fighters do not. Considering that Centauri fighters are renowned for their agility, they can probably pull it off as well. That's a lot of ships that can pull of that maneuver.

Most of the DS-II would miss the planet/moon, and those peaces that hit would mostly be to small to do anything beyond a light show in the short term at least. The big chunks would be broken up with those small town vaporizing guns.

There was no Endor Holocaust much to the disappointment of the Storm Troopers stationed there. Ewoks are nasty buggers.
http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/files/endor/
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Apocalypse_Endor

So you are arguing that the fighters were shooting down pieces of the death star? Or that unseen turbolasers were causing the explosions? The explosions are clearly fireworks, and the fighters are not firing at them. furthermore, the explosions happen AFTER the fighters fly by, indicating that they could not have fired upon them. Lastly, the scene cuts moments later to identical explosions over courescant. The original point was that there were fighters flying over endor after the battle of endor, indicating that more fighters then those that participated in the attack on the DS II survived.

Or the dome is destroyed when the officer is reporting the shields are down. We don't know exactly why the shield went down at that point we just know that it went down.

It's rather hard to believe the shield went down because of a few shots from a single fighter while we see other craft take worse.

What makes you think the dome is anything important?

As I said before, the bridge officer stated that the bridge shields were down, the fighters didn't destroy the shields for the entire ship. The explosion fro mthe dome is still rocking the bridge when we see the inside of the bridge. THEN the officer looks at his console and makes the statement. One explosion-shields down. It's possible that the shields did not extend to cover the generator itself.

Even in EU/outside the movies, the domes are identified as shield generators quite consistently.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... D_egvv.jpg

You are assuming that the report given to the captain happens after the dome is destroyed, and not at the same time. Given we see no sign of a shield when the A-wing fires

Are you saying that the scenes were out of order? That makes no sense at all.

I can't find anything in the movie that says the A-wings didn't fire after the shield was down, and the report was not given at about the same time.

The a wings turn away after the dome is destroyed. The report was given right after the bridge stopped shaking, and then the bridge is destroyed moments later from the collision after the 'intensify forward batteries' order is given. Given demonstrated SW fighter maneuverability, the a-wings would have had to pull a Starfury
maneuver to fire back onto the bridge in that amount of time.

Sounds like something someone would sabotage.

Do you have any evidence, on screen or EU to back this claim up?

The problem is that we see the SSD under attack from Ackbar's point of view before during and after he gives the order.

Sorry, but we can't tell what brought down the shields, and we have no reason to think they were even up when the A-wing attack the dome.

We have no idea how long after the order is given the scene with the A-wings takes place. Remember all the rebel fighters tried to make an attack on the reactor of the DS-II.

No, we see Ackbar give the order, fighters attacking the SSD, the SSD getting destroyed, and THEN we see his reaction. There is no reason to think that the bridge shields were brought down by firepower from anything bigger then a fighter.

Not all the fighters followed the falcon. 3 a-wings and 1 x-wing are seen attacking the executor. in addition to this, there are numerous fighter-sized craft over endor after the battle.

Sorry to break it to you, but we have no way of knowing Han was telling the truth, and in the case of the Battle of Endor hyper-drive speeds would be meaningless. Han is a rather poor lier, just look at ANH.

If he wasn't telling the truth, then how come the falcon wasn't captured by the star destroyers? I already addressed the fact that his boast was justified, if embellished, by pointing out that his ship was faster in hyperspace. We don't see any rebel ships bigger then the falcon going at the speeds it does, so it is fair enough to conclude that it was faster then their non-fighter craft.

That is what we are told, and shown unlike Star Fury Star Wars Fighters don't just lazily float in straight lines without getting shot down.

You have consistently ignored that SW fighters fly in straight lines through enemy fire, just as B5 fighters do. B5 fighters will swivel and change direction when they need to though, while SW fighters seem to ignore anti-fighter weapons unless they are fighter-based.

I never said one example was not enough. You however wanted to use proof that Minbari capital ship have super ECM as proof that Minbari fighters had something similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZVGkll ... re=related

3 minutes in. Maximum scanners can barely pick them up. Earth ships have a hard time locking onto minbari ships. This is consistent with when sherridan says that earth ships could not get locks on minbari ships. This doesn't keep them from firing on minbari ships, but it hurts their accuracy big time. Fighters have already been mentioned as having stealth systems of their own.

Prove B5 sensors can see through objects like a Star Destroyer's command tower.

Someone not using the known capabilities of their ship is not proof the ship can not do something. Star Wars fighters have life sign detectors just like Star Destroyers. The Falcon not being spotted is a case of the sensors just not being used rather then not being able to do the job. Boba Fett spotted the Falcon after all.

You seem to have a point about the teddy bear.

B5 scanners can pick up internal readings accurate enough to know when a Minbari cruiser (without stealth) has its drive going critical, and can tell when a stealthed sharlin has its gunports open. (but cannot tell if they are about to fire or not) They can tell when a centauri ship is about to fire though.

Boba Fett's ship seems to be rather enhanced compared to ships like TIEs, I will not deny its powers, but it definitely seems to be an outlier.

Think about how useless the thermal exhaust port was given there is no atmosphere in space. The DS-I was very poorly designed.

It was indeed rather poorly designed, but this is not a point in favor of the imperials. Esp considering it could indicate that other imperial ships might have flaws like external piping full of flammable gas, or external shield generators.

That is pretty much the Emperors fault by design.

Again, not a point in the favor of the imperials if everything is poorly designed and poorly executed.

I suggest you check the Battle of Endor for clear examples of jamming.

Out of context. The posts were in response to claims you made that the rebels were being jammed at Yavin. The only evidence of jamming of any kind being done in SW is the falcon's hidden compartments, and the battle of endor. In both cases, there is no indication that either imeprials or rebels have the ability to even detect when they are being jammed.

Not really. Minbari armor sucks

And yet this is the only on-screen evidence of minbari armor being weak. We see minbari ships being blown up by thirdspace aliens, shadows, and other minbari. All of which have no trouble blowing up ships of other races. The only time we see them get hit by guns besides those is when an earth ship starts off the earth minbari war. it fails to destroy the target.

Go to a site like YouTube, find a video of the scene, and then give a time stamp about a second before the scene. The TIE died quickly.

2:33 A wing flies in straight line and blows up, then the fighters who shot it down, who are flying straight, get blown up by a Y-wing

4:15 falcon and a few other fighters flying in a straight line over a SD while they have TIEs on their tails.

6:30 x-wing and a-wing fly in a straight line down the spine of the executor and get blown up.

That's just at the battle of endor. On hoth and yavin fighters also do this. SW fighters are just as capable of flying in straight lines and getting blown up as starfuries. They just go a little faster and can't maneuver to the same degree.

Prove how fast the fighters move in Babylon 5 and Star Wars.

Starfuries typically go slower then SW fighters, but they have observed top speeds on par with SW fighters, the reverse is also true, as SW fighters occasionally slow down to speeds much lower then their top observed speeds.

thunderbolts and starfuries have been shown to be capable of keeping up with whitestars in the battle where the whitestar fleet were engaging the omegaXs.

The A-wings attacking the executors domes were going somewhat slow, by comparison.

The fastest we see SW fighters is after the battle of endor, the fastest we see b5 ships go would probably be at the omegax battle.

Phalanx CIWS literally lay down a wall of bullets to hit the target, and you may want to read up on the missiles they target.

One thing to keep in mind is we currently design our missile defense systems to deal with objects that take evasive action, but the Centauri don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids ... 29_pdf.pdf

I know about the Phalanx of course, I was referring to them in my prior post. The point was that we currently have means of shooting down missiles, which don't take evasive action, and this does not make the missiles ineffective. You seemed to be implying that B5 missiles are worthless because the drazi missiles did not evade the centauri shots.

Thank you for posting links to prove my point.

The meaning of 'evasive maneuvering' is unclear if it refers to to the steep angles or low trajectories that are mentioned. Plenty of missiles are designed to take evasive maneuvers prior to hitting a target, but this does not mean that they are reacting to incoming fire, it means that they are following pre-programmed maneuvers that make it more difficult for them to be hit.

The only references I was able to find for missiles taking evasive actions was pre-programmed maneuvers.

"Inspired by the optimization results, a 3-dimensional biased proportional navigation guidance (PNG) law to induce a barrel-roll maneuver during the homing phase is proposed"

-Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, paper published in 2010

"The navigation system was an inertial platform which could be programmed to execute evasive maneuvers before hitting the target."

-Hades nuclear missile

The centauri being able to shoot down missiles is a point in their favor. There is no evidence that they cannot track targets taking evasive action, this claim is pure speculation.

It proves proton torpedos can make some very extreme maneuvers.

Or that they have horrible accuracy/were programed to make the maneuver at a certain distance.

The only missiles I can think of are at the beginning of Episode three. The set sent after Obi-won worked perfectly.

All the shots came close or hit a tiny target in ANH.

Two out of four missed. SW missiles can be defeated by doing a barrel roll, or jettisoning luggage out the back of your fighter. We see missiles and PT miss more often then they hit. The missiles in 2 made evasive maneuvers though, which makes it all the more puzzling when they hit the spare parts.

They scanned the escape pod, and saw no life signs.

Which means that either their scanners have to be set to scan for droids, or are incapable of picking them up.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The Drazi missiles are unable to even get into range, and blow up if a shot even comes near them.

The proton torpedos in ANH were being used to hit an abnormally small target, and those that missed were only a few meters off target.

The drazi missiles were unable to hit their targets because they were shot down, not because they missed, which is what the first set of torpedoes did.

Furbies show the ability to build things that respond to sensory input.

Furbies are capable of building things now? since when? why don't we have furby robot slaves building our skyscrapers? What does that have to do with missiles? missile=/= furby. AI missiles like you talk about would require large computers to work. coincidentally, the only SW missile shown to have the ability to evade obstacles was HUGE.

Given they blew up if a shot just came near them...

As I have mentioned before, Centauri Vorchans use explosive shots. The missiles did not necessarily cause a chain reaction.

You said "The Phantom Menace" also known as "Episode One". The only missiles that did not work as intended were the proton torpedos.

You referred to them as short-range torpedoes, unless I am mistaken. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Come again? What doesn't Star Wars have?

Flares, chaff, defensive guns, or any anti-missile countermeasures more advanced then shooting luggage out the back of your ship.

certain b5 ships have ecm, and capital ships have demonstrated the ability to shoot down incoming fire.

Prove that those are shield hits.

They explode without hitting the ships, without damaging them, and within close proximity to them. When unshielded targets are hit, we see fire, sparks, scorching, etc.

Since we never see this in the movies you must be bringing in that wanked out EU for Star Wars.

No, these are simple observations based on the profile of the falcon, the fact that the guns are located on top of and underneath it, and the fact we see it hit ships in front of it.

Interesting that it counts as 'wanked out EU' when EU is brought up by me (which this is not an example of) but when you bring up proton flack or use the clone wars cartoon to support your arguments, it is perfectly acceptable.

Having a couple of AA guns hardly makes something heavily armed. The Falcon lacks anti-capital ship weapons.

more heavily armed then an x-wing, at least. Volume of fire counts for something. As for anti-capital ship ordinance, it helped blow up the DS-II reactor. Besides, we only see OT fighters use something besides blasters/turbolasers in ANH. twice.

They directly engage the Star Destroyers and SSD. We see them shooting, and destroying Star Destroyers, and damaging SSD.

We never see any of that.

Given the fixed nature of the fighter's weapons it has to be more agile. Remember TIE fly circles around the Falcon in the literal sense.

The x-wing also doesn't have enough space for a turret. Y-wings do. Is there evidence that the falcon was doing anything other then flying in a straight line?

I don't recall the two ships having much difference in rate of fire.

From a single quad cannon? no. But it has four.

That's nice, but we are talking about Star Destroyers, and all their guns we can see are about the same size. Why should we assume a full power shot will look any different from a less powerful shot from the same gun?

...because the only other time we see something fire on what is identified as a higher setting, is on the ATAT, where there is a noticeable difference.

I didn't see the Narn ship even try to dodge, and they could barely move. Prove the Narn ship dodged.

The ranges looked to be close range for Babylon 5 ships. We see the lowly Narn engage Shadow Battle crabs at greater distances.

Narn weapons seem to have instantaneous or nearly instantaneous travel time. pulse weapons are routinely intercepted by counterfire, beam weapons never are. If the Centauri ship had used beam weapons, the Narn ship would not have been able to react. PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED Proof is when we see the centauri ship fire with a trajectory that should have hit if the ship had stayed still. Also, Sherridan asks the narn commander if his ship can navigate prior to the battle. later we see the Narn ship engage its engines, proving that it is capable of moving. It's also mentioned that the centauri were also targeting the escorting fighters, which explains the damaged fighter. One of the guns aimed at the narn ship that was running for the jumpgate, and all of the shots from that volley missed, one of the others aimed at the squadron, and hit one fighter. The rest fired at B5 and were intercepted until a volley got through. The ranges weren't necessarily close for a b5 space battle, but they were quite long range for a SW battle.

Thank you this was good for a laugh.

You don't need an AI to make a missile that tries to dodge.

The Drazi missiles exploded because the shots came near them at times. They are poorly designed.

yes, you do need an AI for that sort of thing. As mentioned before, centauri vorchans seem to fire explosive shots.

You need to prove it. Mr.O has a nice little threads on this.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?p=3411599
viewtopic.php?p=3423

Seems like their are plenty of people who agree with me.

The USA has access to AK-47s, but does not make much if any use of them. The Empire would have had access to proton cannons if simply capturing them during the Clone War, or that the design was lost.

or that show was aired afterward, and there were no plans to include them in the OT, and you are just reading things into places where they don't exist. Do you have a video of these flak weapons in the cartoon show to draw a visual comparison to the movies?

The whole concept of flak blasters is ridiculous. Are they set to detonate at a set distance? are they proximity detonated? Why do shots that miss and hit asteroids not show this effect? why do we never see a fighter destroyed by one of these proximity hits. Why do ships seem to alternate flak shots with normal ones? It makes no sense at all, unless there is no such thing as a flak blaster or turbolaser in the movies, and that is just the shield effect.

Prove it.
How do you explain people being able to return to a planet targeted by the Vorlon planet killer?

How do you explain survivors?

Pretty sure that it is mentioned in dialogue, in the episode where they are introduced. When is it said that people landed on a planet blown up by the vorlons? I already provided a scenario for survivors.

I read it, but you have yet to prove it. The younger races are at a major disadvantage, and even if they work together they will not share tech.

Star Wars ships are faster, and can take more damage as shown. The Empire would not invade unless they thought they had the numbers to do that.

The only thing that has been proved is that SW ships have shields and that their armor doesn't seem to be particularly strong, while their faster tend to go at slightly faster speeds, but not a great deal faster then the top speeds demonstrated by b5 fighters, if at all. B6 seems to have noticeably better firepower. Younger races bring superior firepower, numbers, interceptor fire, and maneuverability to the table, SW brings shields and volume of fire.

The First one save the day because the younger races go down to 200 megawatt pulse cannons.

Please note that 200 megawatts is a lot of energy to be fired in a directed pulse.

So you are simultaneously claiming that 200MW is a lot of firepower, but that it is a disadvantage? I'm not sure what your point is with this statement, could you reword it? First ones saving the day really doesn't say anything about SWs ability to beat them.

[Lucky]

Narn fighters are also capable of a similar maneuver. The only types of fighter that don't perform this maneuver are Drazi, Centauri , Shadow, and Drakh fighters. Vorlon fighters use this maneuver when attacking a shadow battlecrab prior to kosh's assassination and shadow scout ships use this maneuver, although their fighters do not. Considering that Centauri fighters are renowned for their agility, they can probably pull it off as well. That's a lot of ships that can pull of that maneuver.

Narn fighters don't seem to be designed to make good use of the ability.

Where is a Vorlon fighter shown do it?

Do you have a clip of the shadow scout?

You forgot Minbari from what I recall.

The only battle I recall seeing the Centauri use fighters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr-EiUSUnhw

So you are arguing that the fighters were shooting down pieces of the death star? Or that unseen turbolasers were causing the explosions? The explosions are clearly fireworks, and the fighters are not firing at them. furthermore, the explosions happen AFTER the fighters fly by, indicating that they could not have fired upon them. Lastly, the scene cuts moments later to identical explosions over courescant. The original point was that there were fighters flying over endor after the battle of endor, indicating that more fighters then those that participated in the attack on the DS II survived.

I was going to do that, but I got told the script and novel both say fireworks.

It would make perfect sense that the rebels had to deal with some of the debris.

As I said before, the bridge officer stated that the bridge shields were down, the fighters didn't destroy the shields for the entire ship. The explosion fro mthe dome is still rocking the bridge when we see the inside of the bridge. THEN the officer looks at his console and makes the statement. One explosion-shields down. It's possible that the shields did not extend to cover the generator itself.

Even in EU/outside the movies, the domes are identified as shield generators quite consistently.

Every other shield generator we see covers it's self.

There is no sign the shields are up when the A-wings attack.

Are you saying that the scenes were out of order? That makes no sense at all.

No, I'm saying the scenes may happen at the same time.

The a wings turn away after the dome is destroyed. The report was given right after the bridge stopped shaking, and then the bridge is destroyed moments later from the collision after the 'intensify forward batteries' order is given. Given demonstrated SW fighter maneuverability, the a-wings would have had to pull a Starfury
maneuver to fire back onto the bridge in that amount of time.

It's hard to say because of all the cuts.

Do you have any evidence, on screen or EU to back this claim up?

It's Vader's flag ship. It's a SSD. What other reasons does someone need to want it sabotaged?

There is no sign shields are up when the A-wings attack, and we don't know why.

No, we see Ackbar give the order, fighters attacking the SSD, the SSD getting destroyed, and THEN we see his reaction. There is no reason to think that the bridge shields were brought down by firepower from anything bigger then a fighter.

I suggest you look more closely. You will see flashes every now and then before the order is given, during, and after. It took me years to notice the flashes around the SSD.

Not all the fighters followed the falcon. 3 a-wings and 1 x-wing are seen attacking the executor. in addition to this, there are numerous fighter-sized craft over endor after the battle.

I have never noticed the X-wing. could you please provide a video with a time stamp?

If he wasn't telling the truth, then how come the falcon wasn't captured by the star destroyers? I already addressed the fact that his boast was justified, if embellished, by pointing out that his ship was faster in hyperspace. We don't see any rebel ships bigger then the falcon going at the speeds it does, so it is fair enough to conclude that it was faster then their non-fighter craft.

The Falcon had a big enough head start that it could make the jump int hyper-space before the SD could get it.

The Falcon is shown to be slower then fighters.

You have consistently ignored that SW fighters fly in straight lines through enemy fire, just as B5 fighters do. B5 fighters will swivel and change direction when they need to though, while SW fighters seem to ignore anti-fighter weapons unless they are fighter-based.

Canon says Fighters in Star Wars don't do what you claim, and when they do do it they get shot down.

You do realize you just said both verse's fighters are comparable.

3 minutes in. Maximum scanners can barely pick them up. Earth ships have a hard time locking onto minbari ships. This is consistent with when sherridan says that earth ships could not get locks on minbari ships. This doesn't keep them from firing on minbari ships, but it hurts their accuracy big time. Fighters have already been mentioned as having stealth systems of their own.

That isn't proof of ECM in that case.

Earth Force accuracy is bad even if the target is not a Minbari.

B5 scanners can pick up internal readings accurate enough to know when a Minbari cruiser (without stealth) has its drive going critical, and can tell when a stealthed sharlin has its gunports open. (but cannot tell if they are about to fire or not) They can tell when a centauri ship is about to fire though.

What stealthed Sharlin?

I don't see how sensing something not trying to hide like reactors going critical or large energy build ups is something to be proud of?

I suggest you watch "Cat and Mouse"

Boba Fett's ship seems to be rather enhanced compared to ships like TIEs, I will not deny its powers, but it definitely seems to be an outlier.

A tiny ship like Slave-1 should not have better sensors then the largest and most powerful wars ships around.

It was indeed rather poorly designed, but this is not a point in favor of the imperials. Esp considering it could indicate that other imperial ships might have flaws like external piping full of flammable gas, or external shield generators.

Shield generators seem to always protect themselves.

Again, not a point in the favor of the imperials if everything is poorly designed and poorly executed.

If the Emperor wants to win then that won't be a problem.

Out of context. The posts were in response to claims you made that the rebels were being jammed at Yavin. The only evidence of jamming of any kind being done in SW is the falcon's hidden compartments, and the battle of endor. In both cases, there is no indication that either imeprials or rebels have the ability to even detect when they are being jammed.

Endor shows they can know if someone is jamming them.

And yet this is the only on-screen evidence of minbari armor being weak. We see minbari ships being blown up by thirdspace aliens, shadows, and other minbari. All of which have no trouble blowing up ships of other races. The only time we see them get hit by guns besides those is when an earth ship starts off the earth minbari war. it fails to destroy the target.

Third Spacers, Minbari, and Shadows are known for having abnormally powerful guns.

The Black Star was destroyed by at best 2 megatons, and three other Minbari warships were destroyed by what had to be less then 1 megaton.

The battle that started the EA/Minbari war was simply an attempt to disable the Minbari sensors.

2:33 A wing flies in straight line and blows up, then the fighters who shot it down, who are flying straight, get blown up by a Y-wing

4:15 falcon and a few other fighters flying in a straight line over a SD while they have TIEs on their tails.

6:30 x-wing and a-wing fly in a straight line down the spine of the executor and get blown up.

That's just at the battle of endor. On hoth and yavin fighters also do this. SW fighters are just as capable of flying in straight lines and getting blown up as starfuries. They just go a little faster and can't maneuver to the same degree.

You need to repost this with a link the the video you are using. There are a lot of videos.

Starfuries typically go slower then SW fighters, but they have observed top speeds on par with SW fighters, the reverse is also true, as SW fighters occasionally slow down to speeds much lower then their top observed speeds.

We agree then

thunderbolts and starfuries have been shown to be capable of keeping up with whitestars in the battle where the whitestar fleet were engaging the omegaXs.

The A-wings attacking the executors domes were going somewhat slow, by comparison.

The fastest we see SW fighters is after the battle of endor, the fastest we see b5 ships go would probably be at the omegax battle.

The Star Fury the Omga-X launched seemed odd. The thrusters for example were redish instead of the normal blueish white.

I know about the Phalanx of course, I was referring to them in my prior post. The point was that we currently have means of shooting down missiles, which don't take evasive action, and this does not make the missiles ineffective. You seemed to be implying that B5 missiles are worthless because the drazi missiles did not evade the centauri shots.

Thank you for posting links to prove my point.

The meaning of 'evasive maneuvering' is unclear if it refers to to the steep angles or low trajectories that are mentioned. Plenty of missiles are designed to take evasive maneuvers prior to hitting a target, but this does not mean that they are reacting to incoming fire, it means that they are following pre-programmed maneuvers that make it more difficult for them to be hit.

The only references I was able to find for missiles taking evasive actions was pre-programmed maneuvers.

"Inspired by the optimization results, a 3-dimensional biased proportional navigation guidance (PNG) law to induce a barrel-roll maneuver during the homing phase is proposed"

-Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, paper published in 2010

"The navigation system was an inertial platform which could be programmed to execute evasive maneuvers before hitting the target."

-Hades nuclear missile

The centauri being able to shoot down missiles is a point in their favor. There is no evidence that they cannot track targets taking evasive action, this claim is pure speculation.

You need to remember to provide links to your sources.

The point is we have missiles that do things that make them harder to hit unlike the Drazi.

The Cetauri just need to get their bolts close, and the things exploded.

Two out of four missed. SW missiles can be defeated by doing a barrel roll, or jettisoning luggage out the back of your fighter. We see missiles and PT miss more often then they hit. The missiles in 2 made evasive maneuvers though, which makes it all the more puzzling when they hit the spare parts.

When Obi-Won jettisoning his luggage he was using what ammount to a poor mans point defense. I'd guess the spare parts looked enough like ship peace.

We have no idea why Anakin was able to lose the missiles the way he did.

And Babylon 5 is worse since you just need to shoot close to the missiles to get them to explode..

Which means that either their scanners have to be set to scan for droids, or are incapable of picking them up.

Or they didn't think to check for droids.

The drazi missiles were unable to hit their targets because they were shot down, not because they missed, which is what the first set of torpedoes did.

The Drazi missiles committed suicide.

Furbies are capable of building things now? since when? why don't we have furby robot slaves building our skyscrapers?

Where did I say Furbies build anything?

What does that have to do with missiles? missile=/= furby. AI missiles like you talk about would require large computers to work. coincidentally, the only SW missile shown to have the ability to evade obstacles was HUGE.

It shows sensor and "AI" capabilities.

As I have mentioned before, Centauri Vorchans use explosive shots. The missiles did not necessarily cause a chain reaction.

I suppose that is why even when the shots went past the missiles the missiles blew up.

You referred to them as short-range torpedoes, unless I am mistaken. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Have we ever seen a proton Torpedo used at what could be called a long range?

Flares, chaff, defensive guns, or any anti-missile countermeasures more advanced then shooting luggage out the back of your ship.

I suppose that why Babylon 5 missile can't stand to have their budies blown up.

Star Wars seems to have shielded proton torpedos.

certain b5 ships have ecm, and capital ships have demonstrated the ability to shoot down incoming fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
Reminds me of Space Balls.

They explode without hitting the ships, without damaging them, and within close proximity to them. When unshielded targets are hit, we see fire, sparks, scorching, etc.

Bolts do that without hitting anything.

No, these are simple observations based on the profile of the falcon, the fact that the guns are located on top of and underneath it, and the fact we see it hit ships in front of it.

So you ignore they can't do what you suggest in ANH and ROTJ.

Interesting that it counts as 'wanked out EU' when EU is brought up by me (which this is not an example of) but when you bring up proton flack or use the clone wars cartoon to support your arguments, it is perfectly acceptable.

I thought you want to keep this to the movies?

more heavily armed then an x-wing, at least. Volume of fire counts for something.

And how do you figure that?

Besides, we only see OT fighters use something besides blasters/turbolasers in ANH. twice.

There are only two times in the OT that they really could have been used.

We never see any of that.

We did. We saw SD and rebel capital ship slugging it out, and if you look out the just before the order to focus on the SSD we can see flashes all over the SSD.

The x-wing also doesn't have enough space for a turret. Y-wings do. Is there evidence that the falcon was doing anything other then flying in a straight line?

An X-wing has plenty of room for two turrets like the Falcon has. You would just have to replace the S-foils/wings. One really has to wonder why Star Wars fighters just don't have a single gun facing backwards?

You need to ask? You haven't watched the battle? Yes the Falcon was trying to chase down TIE at the battle of Endor, but only fired in forwards arcs. It had to go around ships stuff

From a single quad cannon? no. But it has four.

Why should we assume a single quad cannon has the same firepower as the four cannons on an X-Wing?

...because the only other time we see something fire on what is identified as a higher setting, is on the ATAT, where there is a noticeable difference.

I've never noticed a difference between a full powered shot and a normal one from an AT-AT..

Narn weapons seem to have instantaneous or nearly instantaneous travel time.

As I recall they are suppose to be lasers, or particle beam cannons. It's hardly out of the question for them to travel at or near the speed light.

pulse weapons are routinely intercepted by counterfire, beam weapons never are. If the Centauri ship had used beam weapons, the Narn ship would not have been able to react. PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED Proof is when we see the centauri ship fire with a trajectory that should have hit if the ship had stayed still. Also, Sherridan asks the narn commander if his ship can navigate prior to the battle. later we see the Narn ship engage its engines, proving that it is capable of moving. It's also mentioned that the centauri were also targeting the escorting fighters, which explains the damaged fighter. One of the guns aimed at the narn ship that was running for the jumpgate, and all of the shots from that volley missed, one of the others aimed at the squadron, and hit one fighter. The rest fired at B5 and were intercepted until a volley got through. The ranges weren't necessarily close for a b5 space battle, but they were quite long range for a SW battle.

That does not show the Narn vessel dodged, and we know Babylon 5 could not dodge, and was a much larger target, but the Centauri missed it completely with many if not most of it's shot that targeted it.

yes, you do need an AI for that sort of thing.

It depends on what you mean by AI. All you need is a device that can scan and react.

As mentioned before, centauri vorchans seem to fire explosive shots.

YOu mean like the shots that didn't explode in this battle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

Seems like their are plenty of people who agree with me.

There are people who will argue that the 200 gigaton quad guns are canon even though they aren't there, and light speed weapons that can't exist.

Shields have defined shape, and abruptly stop at a certain point. For your claim to be true you need to prove the bolts are hitting the shield, and explain why the shields seem to not always react. Remember we see bolts pass very close to R2-D2's head.
http://eijijyi.tripod.com/deflectorshieldgenerator.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/alb ... TCflak.jpg
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWasterosmack.html

Why you don't like the "flak" in Star Wars is beyond me. The fact of the matter is bolts in Star wars explode for seemingly no reason at times, and seem to act like flak. We see it in the OT, PT, and animated series.

Weather you like this site or not it has a huge number of quotes. Just use the search function, and type in "Flak."
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWsearch.html

or that show was aired afterward, and there were no plans to include them in the OT, and you are just reading things into places where they don't exist. Do you have a video of these flak weapons in the cartoon show to draw a visual comparison to the movies?

You have to go to a site that will let you watch the entire episode. They are very aggressive about not letting YouTube host the eps it seems.

http://www.mastertoons.com/index.php

The whole concept of flak blasters is ridiculous. Are they set to detonate at a set distance? are they proximity detonated? Why do shots that miss and hit asteroids not show this effect? why do we never see a fighter destroyed by one of these proximity hits. Why do ships seem to alternate flak shots with normal ones? It makes no sense at all, unless there is no such thing as a flak blaster or turbolaser in the movies, and that is just the shield effect.

Flak exists because the movies show it as I have proven. You just say there are shield interactions for no reason, and with no proof. It was used to shoot R-2 units, used on Rebel snow speeders at Hoth, used by Slave-1, used to try to stop the Falcon, and that is just off the top of my head.

All that matters is that it happens.

Pretty sure that it is mentioned in dialogue, in the episode where they are introduced. When is it said that people landed on a planet blown up by the vorlons? I already provided a scenario for survivors.

It's never stated that Vorlon planet killers turn planets into asteroids as far as I know. We simply see one flying through an asteroid field.

You can find the quotes here.
http://web.archive.org/web/200709180058 ... s/vpk.html

The only thing that has been proved is that SW ships have shields and that their armor doesn't seem to be particularly strong,

Star Wars uses higher yields as standard.

Have you by any chance seen Jedi crash?

while their faster tend to go at slightly faster speeds, but not a great deal faster then the top speeds demonstrated by b5 fighters, if at all.

Many of the Babylon 5 capital ships seem to accelerate at less then 1g, and Star Wars capital ships seem to accelerate at 20+g.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictG.html

B6 seems to have noticeably better firepower. Younger races bring superior firepower,

A 200 megawatt pulse cannon is used for anti-warship work, and seems to be reasonably effective against the younger races like the Centauri. That means you only need a 200 megawatt weapon to take down any of the younger races in a few shots. Star Wars will not have trouble coming up with this kind of firepower since the fighters and ground vehicles have it. Some sources even give Star Wars fighters and ground vehicles gigajoule energy weapons like the beloved Minbari Nail has is calculated to have, and the Nail is one of the most powerful fighters in Babylon 5.

In StarWars Capital ships of the Clone War era are stated to throw around blasts that can vaporize a small town. It's vague, but tells us they have high terajoule (kiloton) to petajoule (megaton) weapons easily, and by the Imperial era they may have increased yields, and we know 2 megaton nukes are major threats to capital ships in Babylon 5

It takes much less then 250 to 300 megatons to kill a first one ship.

numbers

When it comes to the younger races the Empire will be using the right numbers because they have been researching the B5 universe, and the author of the OP said the Star Wars side magically gets the funds it needs to wage the war. The only surprises would be from the first ones.

You need to prove that B5 has more resources and man power.

interceptor fire

Interceptor fire can only last for a few seconds before it stops working, and is used by only one race.

and maneuverability to the table,

I suppose this is why in most Babylon five battles the ships just sit there like beached whales.

SW brings shields and volume of fire.

Speed, firepower, shields, and possibly armor.

So you are simultaneously claiming that 200MW is a lot of firepower, but that it is a disadvantage? I'm not sure what your point is with this statement, could you reword it? First ones saving the day really doesn't say anything about SWs ability to beat them.

A 200MW directed energy weapon from a real world perspective is a very powerful weapon last I checked especially if we assume a 200 mega-watt output rather then input.

In this case a 200 MW weapon would be used as an anti-fighter/personel weapon(Star Wars), and the other side(Babylon 5) considers it to be a powerful anti-warship weapon. The standard weapons from Star Wars are an order of magnitude more powerful then those of the Babylon 5 younger races.

[User1555]

Narn fighters don't seem to be designed to make good use of the ability.

Where is a Vorlon fighter shown do it?

Do you have a clip of the shadow scout?

You forgot Minbari from what I recall.

The only battle I recall seeing the Centauri use fighters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr-EiUSUnhw

Vorlon fighters do this in the first battle of the shadow-vorlon war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4FJn5lpB4

about 40 seconds in.

Lost tales is odd. There is a shot in the opening of either the first or second season that shows a centauri fighter doing a big loop, I don't think it was in an actual episode though.

Sharpest turn I have seen a minbari fighter do was a right angle after lineer almost rammed it into an asteroid.

Every other shield generator we see covers it's self.

There is no sign the shields are up when the A-wings attack.

Even when shields are up, it never seems to be able to guarantee survival while they are up. The script doesn't specify what the dome was.

Gungan shields do not shield themselves, and the rebel generator on hoth did not seem to have any shielding underneath the dome. It's possible that the shields did not cover the generator or the fighters were inside the shield.

No, I'm saying the scenes may happen at the same time.

I don't see how that helps your position, if the officers only notice the shields are down when the dome is destroyed, and not a moment sooner.

It's hard to say because of all the cuts.

there were two a-wings that blew up the dome, while it was an a-wing and a x-wing that made a run at the bridge, they were probably different fighters.

It's Vader's flag ship. It's a SSD. What other reasons does someone need to want it sabotaged?

There is no sign shields are up when the A-wings attack, and we don't know why.

There was absolutely zero on screen references to the shields being sabotaged. Is there is no evidence that this occurred, even in the EU?

I suggest you look more closely. You will see flashes every now and then before the order is given, during, and after. It took me years to notice the flashes around the SSD.

Those explosions are happening a fair distance from the hull, either the shields extend extremely far away from the hull, or the rebels were using their 'flak' on a target as big as a city?

Most of those explosions could very well be fighters exploding in the background.

We can see one of the mon cal ships (ackbar's ship?) firing its guns at around 6:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

That's the only fire we see from the rebel fleetships anywhere near the SSD.

I have never noticed the X-wing. could you please provide a video with a time stamp?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

6:30

The Falcon had a big enough head start that it could make the jump int hyper-space before the SD could get it.

The Falcon is shown to be slower then fighters.

You already said that the falcon had higher FTL, that is just splitting hairs. The only time it is shown to be slower then a fighter is in ANH, but it seems to have no trouble keeping up with the rest of the fleet in ROTJ, so it may be that the speed difference is negligible.

Canon says Fighters in Star Wars don't do what you claim, and when they do do it they get shot down.

You do realize you just said both verse's fighters are comparable.

Movie canon is the highest canon and contradicts your claims multiple times across the movies.

SW ships have shields, and bab 5 has better maneuverability, I would say they are comparable beyond that.

That isn't proof of ECM in that case.

Earth Force accuracy is bad even if the target is not a Minbari.

Seriously? Do you understand what ECM means? 'Electronic Countermeasures' You seem to be mistaking it with ST cloaking devices, which are a specific type of ECM.

Do you have any proof that Earth accuracy is 'bad'? they have greater engagement ranges then SW, and hit their targets with great frequency, even at those ranges.

What stealthed Sharlin?

I don't see how sensing something not trying to hide like reactors going critical or large energy build ups is something to be proud of?

I suggest you watch "Cat and Mouse"

The first contact with the minbari and earth, the earth scanners were able to tell that the gunports were open.

Being able to tell that the reactor was going critical may not be anything special by trek standards, but it is more then what SW scanners have been able to pick up.

A tiny ship like Slave-1 should not have better sensors then the largest and most powerful wars ships around.

Slave I is more heavily armed then any other ship of its size that we see in any of the movies, and has display screens that show levels of detail that are miles above what x-wings, TIEs and Yavin base have. It's safe to assume that it isn't a 'normal' ship.

Shield generators seem to always protect themselves.

They can't even protect the object they are shielding in many cases, there are plenty of instances where damage seems to be caused by damage bleeding through the shields.

At Hoth we see a flash from Imperial blasters at the top of his cockpit, which would have destroyed his craft if it had been unshielded, but we see scorching on that location when he gets out.

If the Emperor wants to win then that won't be a problem.

So he didn't want to win at Endor? It seemed like he was trying pretty hard to win, what with the troops on the ground, imperial fleet, and operational main weapon.

Endor shows they can know if someone is jamming them.

Only by Lando's intuition, not by any technological marvels on the part of the rebels.

Third Spacers, Minbari, and Shadows are known for having abnormally powerful guns.

The Black Star was destroyed by at best 2 megatons, and three other Minbari warships were destroyed by what had to be less then 1 megaton.

The battle that started the EA/Minbari war was simply an attempt to disable the Minbari sensors.

'All forward guns, fire at will, I repeat FIRE (caps shouted)' does not sound like he was specifically ordering them to target their sensors. The fact that all of the earth ships guns fired and managed to do damage on a magnitude similar to what we see the effect of earth ships doing on other earth ships indicates that minbari armor is not necessarily much weaker then earth armor. Much of the ships hull is wafer thin though, so it is of dubious usefulness.

Keep in mind that this was the combined firepower of two Hyperions.

The mines were all 2 megaton, why would the other ships be destroyed by less? As stated before, the explosions themselves are inconsistent with the actual effects of a 2-megaton nuke.

You need to repost this with a link the the video you are using. There are a lot of videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

The Star Fury the Omga-X launched seemed odd. The thrusters for example were redish instead of the normal blueish white.

Thunderbolts have red engines, starfuries have blue.

You need to remember to provide links to your sources.

The point is we have missiles that do things that make them harder to hit unlike the Drazi.

The Cetauri just need to get their bolts close, and the things exploded.

Vorchan weapons are explosive, I don't know how many times I have said this. i don't know where you got the idea that the shots only needed to come close, considering we only see about two shots miss out of the entire barrage.

Wikipedia for the Hades,

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all ... 5195&tag=1

for the other.

When Obi-Won jettisoning his luggage he was using what ammount to a poor mans point defense. I'd guess the spare parts looked enough like ship peace.

We have no idea why Anakin was able to lose the missiles the way he did.

And Babylon 5 is worse since you just need to shoot close to the missiles to get them to explode..

There is no arguing that the missiles in those two instances were defeated through incredibly low-tech means. Missiles being destroyed when hit by the equivalent of space battleship guns should come as no surprise, and does not indicate a weakness on their part other then their ability to be hit, which, seems to be the sort of thing that SW missiles would not necessarily be strong with either, as they only seem to be able to avoid slow moving large objects.

Or they didn't think to check for droids.

Exactly, it would seem to indicate that they either cannot pick up objects like droids, or they have to be perform scans for specific objects. Whereas B5 can discern what is going on on the sharlin in moments without having to refine its scan.

The Drazi missiles committed suicide.

They were shot down. There is no evidence that the missiles did anything besides fly towards their targets and get shot down. Either back up your claim that they purposefully wasted their missiles, or don't make that claim.

Where did I say Furbies build anything?

Furbies show the ability to build things that respond to sensory input.

It shows sensor and "AI" capabilities.

The AI a furby has and what would be required for a missile like you mentioned are completely different things. If the technology was so readily available, why don't we use it in our modern missiles?

I suppose that is why even when the shots went past the missiles the missiles blew up.

I suppose that why Babylon 5 missile can't stand to have their budies blown up.

Star Wars seems to have shielded proton torpedos.

Sw has shielded torpedoes? Please provide source. Vorchan main guns are explosive. the shots that missed did not explode because...they....missed. We don't see a vorchan hit something and not cause a large explosion, even when it hits an armored object and does not cause a catastrophic amount of damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
Reminds me of Space Balls.

What does that have to do with anything? That's not a retort, or an agreement, or anything. You are ignoring the point.

Bolts do that without hitting anything.

And they don't cause any damage either when they explode out of contact. They explode whenever they hit something similarly to when they do 'flak mode' but they only seem to destroy ships when they score a direct hit. Perhaps if flak mode blasts and impact blasts look identical, then flak blasts are actually from impacts?

So you ignore they can't do what you suggest in ANH and ROTJ.

Several fighters in ROTJ are destroyed by the falcon when they are in front of the ship.

I thought you want to keep this to the movies?

You don't see the hypocrisy of using EU sources and then dismissing my claims for using the 'wanked out' EU? I do want to keep it to the movies, and I intend to. The part of with the falcon was not EU though, it was simple observation, so I have not broken my rule. At any rate, if we were using the EU, we wouldn't be having the discussions about blaster flak and SD shield generators, because those points are pretty clearly in my favor if we go by the EU.

And how do you figure that?

Because it makes a lot of widows where TIE fighter pilots are concerned.

There are only two times in the OT that they really could have been used.

How about vs those ATATs? Some PTs homing in on those weakspots sure would have helped, instead they used blaster turrets and speeder blasters, and tow cables.

Or on Endor, some PT fired from those calamari ships would have been a nasty surprise for the executor bridge, or vica verca. Would have helped out against those TIEs too.

We did. We saw SD and rebel capital ship slugging it out, and if you look out the just before the order to focus on the SSD we can see flashes all over the SSD.

we see a few flashes on the surface when it is in ackbar's window. We see none at all besides that, and we see no flashes definitively being caused by rebel fleetships.

An X-wing has plenty of room for two turrets like the Falcon has. You would just have to replace the S-foils/wings. One really has to wonder why Star Wars fighters just don't have a single gun facing backwards?

You need to ask? You haven't watched the battle? Yes the Falcon was trying to chase down TIE at the battle of Endor, but only fired in forwards arcs. It had to go around ships stuff

a quad turret on the x-wing would require a gunner, the only turreted rebel fighter we see is the Y-wing, and it has a crew of two. Yes, the falcon fired in forward arcs, doesn't this contradict what you were talking about earlier?

Why should we assume a single quad cannon has the same firepower as the four cannons on an X-Wing?

It does comparable damage to TIEs. We really don't have any other comparison to go on besides that, but neither weapon seems to have any trouble with TIEs.

I've never noticed a difference between a full powered shot and a normal one from an AT-AT..

The shots seem slightly thicker to me.

As I recall they are suppose to be lasers, or particle beam cannons. It's hardly out of the question for them to travel at or near the speed light.

So why do you think that the obviously sublight centauri weapons should be undogeable
as lasers?

That does not show the Narn vessel dodged, and we know Babylon 5 could not dodge, and was a much larger target, but the Centauri missed it completely with many if not most of it's shot that targeted it.

Proof please. We do not see any evidence that centauri aim concerning B5 was off in any way. B5 was using interceptors.

It depends on what you mean by AI. All you need is a device that can scan and react.

Like an AI.

There are people who will argue that the 200 gigaton quad guns are canon even though they aren't there, and light speed weapons that can't exist.

Shields have defined shape, and abruptly stop at a certain point. For your claim to be true you need to prove the bolts are hitting the shield, and explain why the shields seem to not always react. Remember we see bolts pass very close to R2-D2's head.
http://eijijyi.tripod.com/deflectorshieldgenerator.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/alb ... TCflak.jpg
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWasterosmack.html

Why you don't like the "flak" in Star Wars is beyond me. The fact of the matter is bolts in Star wars explode for seemingly no reason at times, and seem to act like flak. We see it in the OT, PT, and animated series.

Weather you like this site or not it has a huge number of quotes. Just use the search function, and type in "Flak."
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWsearch.html

Again, we never see a ship destroyed by one of these indirect hits. We see flak detonating at variable distances from the fighters. We only see shots detonating in proximity to other objects, we don't see them fly off and explode with nothing around. Either SW fighters have some sort of device that can tell the distance between the craft and set the next shot to detonate at a certain distance, the shots are proximity detonated, or shields have some form of destabilizing effect on shots that come within a certain distance. Considering how shoddy most SW targeting computers are, the advanced flak calculating computer idea doesn't seem too plausible. combined with the uselessness of these flak blasts for causing damage, there really isn't much logic in arguing for such a weapon. As for the near misses, we know SW shields are unreliable in that direct hits will cause damage, so it might be that SW shields are most reliable at certain angles.

You have to go to a site that will let you watch the entire episode. They are very aggressive about not letting YouTube host the eps it seems.

http://www.mastertoons.com/index.php

useful for the future, thanks.

Flak exists because the movies show it as I have proven. You just say there are shield interactions for no reason, and with no proof. It was used to shoot R-2 units, used on Rebel snow speeders at Hoth, used by Slave-1, used to try to stop the Falcon, and that is just off the top of my head.

All that matters is that it happens.

R2 was hit by a shot, not a blast from a nearby explosion, that deos not support your argument. There is no real evidence for either position, as onscreen evidence can be easily interpreted either way. Which is why I have been trying to prove it via the common sense of the weapon being inconsistent with targeting computer quality and the overall ineffectiveness of the proximity explosions in destroying ships.

It's never stated that Vorlon planet killers turn planets into asteroids as far as I know. We simply see one flying through an asteroid field.

You can find the quotes here.
http://web.archive.org/web/200709180058 ... s/vpk.html

dead link. I'm rewatching all the planet killer episodes to find mention of its effects. In the meantime, the wiki says it destroys planets, for what that's worth.

Many of the Babylon 5 capital ships seem to accelerate at less then 1g, and Star Wars capital ships seem to accelerate at 20+g.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictG.html

Defining a g is not proof that SW ships accelerate to higher Gs.

Star Wars uses higher yields as standard.

Have you by any chance seen Jedi crash?

They do not have higher yields as evidenced by the fact that a TIE does damage to R2 comparable to an E-11, which in turn only wounds Leia. We see ATAT guns make small explosions on the ground. The only evidence we have of overwhelming firepower on the part of SW outside of EU is the DS, and that is something of an outlier.

A 200 megawatt pulse cannon is used for anti-warship work, and seems to be reasonably effective against the younger races like the Centauri. That means you only need a 200 megawatt weapon to take down any of the younger races in a few shots. Star Wars will not have trouble coming up with this kind of firepower since the fighters and ground vehicles have it. Some sources even give Star Wars fighters and ground vehicles gigajoule energy weapons like the beloved Minbari Nail has is calculated to have, and the Nail is one of the most powerful fighters in Babylon 5.

In StarWars Capital ships of the Clone War era are stated to throw around blasts that can vaporize a small town. It's vague, but tells us they have high terajoule (kiloton) to petajoule (megaton) weapons easily, and by the Imperial era they may have increased yields, and we know 2 megaton nukes are major threats to capital ships in Babylon 5

It takes much less then 250 to 300 megatons to kill a first one ship.

Wow, talk about cherrypicking. It was numerous hits from those 200 MW guns as well as interceptor fire from B5 that took down the Primus, in case you didn't notice. Arguing gigajoule firepower in SW, as you have pointed out, earlier in the same post, is ridiculous when it is contradicted by on screen evidence.

When it comes to the younger races the Empire will be using the right numbers because they have been researching the B5 universe, and the author of the OP said the Star Wars side magically gets the funds it needs to wage the war. The only surprises would be from the first ones.

You need to prove that B5 has more resources and man power.

More resources?

Siege of centauri Prime gives us some estimates on Narn remnant fleet sizes as well as Drazi, this doesn't count the drone fleet the centaur have. On a side note, we see the drazi homeworld in another episode which seems to indicate that the drazi had a lot more resources on their hands, they had large numbers of orbital stations and ships. The centauri and humans have planetary defenses. At the liberation of Mars and earth, we see large numbers of human ships loyal to clark, even after he had lost a large number of ships to the war. The battle of the line showed that the minbari had massive amounts of ships available to them. Any one of the mentioned races should have no problem matching or exceeding imperial numbers at Endor, excepting perhaps the Brakiri and possibly the Drazi.

Interceptor fire can only last for a few seconds before it stops working, and is used by only one race.

The centauri also use it. the interceptors lasted 30 seconds.

I suppose this is why in most Babylon five battles the ships just sit there like beached whales.

I was referring to fighters. B5 capital ships act as artillery platforms, carriers, and point defense. Way to avoid my point and change the subject. At any rate, comparing B5 ships to beached whales is laughable considering how SW ships move.

Speed, firepower, shields, and possibly armor.

The only one of those categories where SW definitively has an edge is shields. Firepower and armor are highly debatable considering some B5 ships are capable of one-shotting other large ships, while SW ships pound on each other all day. Speed difference between fleetships is not noticeable, and fighters is only slightly in SW favor, whereas B5 has greater range, accuracy, and better fighter maneuverability.

A 200MW directed energy weapon from a real world perspective is a very powerful weapon last I checked especially if we assume a 200 mega-watt output rather then input.

In this case a 200 MW weapon would be used as an anti-fighter/personel weapon(Star Wars), and the other side(Babylon 5) considers it to be a powerful anti-warship weapon. The standard weapons from Star Wars are an order of magnitude more powerful then those of the Babylon 5 younger races.

You are contradicting yourself within the same post again:

There are people who will argue that the 200 gigaton quad guns are canon even though they aren't there, and light speed weapons that can't exist.

On screen evidence suggests a negligible difference in firepower at least on the fighter scale considering the damage that fighters do to each other. Vs capital ships we have luke's strafing run vs starfury strafing runs on omegas and the primus, both to similar effects.

[Praeothmin]

Then why didn't anyone say 'sir, the sensors are down'? The order of events is 1) dome destroyed by fighters 2) bridge shakes 3) and then they lose their 'bridge deflection shields'. Are you implying that they only realized that shields were down when the dome was destroyed? If so, then that Imperial officer must have been incredibly incompetent to not notice the readings on his console until damage had already been done. Either that, or his position on the bridge was 'captain obvious'.

SW Essential guide to Vehicules says it's a Sensor Dome AND a Shield Generator, as does the original ICS...

[Lucky]

Vorlon fighters do this in the first battle of the shadow-vorlon war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4FJn5lpB4

about 40 seconds in.

That looks nothing like what a Star Fury does to me. The Vorlon fighters have complete control do to their drives.

Lost tales is odd. There is a shot in the opening of either the first or second season that shows a centauri fighter doing a big loop, I don't think it was in an actual episode though.

Well I don't know of any other footage of Centauri fighters.

Sharpest turn I have seen a minbari fighter do was a right angle after lineer almost rammed it into an asteroid.

Try to find a clip?

Even when shields are up, it never seems to be able to guarantee survival while they are up. The script doesn't specify what the dome was.

Just look at the battle of Endor, and all the times shields stop fighters from actually crashing into the ships.

Gungan shields do not shield themselves, and the rebel generator on hoth did not seem to have any shielding underneath the dome. It's possible that the shields did not cover the generator or the fighters were inside the shield.

In both cases the generators were under the shields they generated. Star Wars shields are kind of like water in that if you hit them hard they are hard, but if you slowly try to move through them they are permeable.

I don't see how that helps your position, if the officers only notice the shields are down when the dome is destroyed, and not a moment sooner.

Who says they necessarily noticed the shields down when the dome was destroyed? If the events happenat the same time it means the shield was down before the A-wings blow up the dome.

There was absolutely zero on screen references to the shields being sabotaged. Is there is no evidence that this occurred, even in the EU?

The bridge shield wasn't up when the A-wing fire on the dome for some reason.

I was just throwing out random possibilities for why the shields went down since we know the A-wing didn't do it.

Those explosions are happening a fair distance from the hull, either the shields extend extremely far away from the hull, or the rebels were using their 'flak' on a target as big as a city?

Most of those explosions could very well be fighters exploding in the background.

We can see one of the mon cal ships (ackbar's ship?) firing its guns at around 6:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

That's the only fire we see from the rebel fleetships anywhere near the SSD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
6:14 you will see flashes that appear to be hitting the SSD before we cut to the bridge of the SSD and A-wings.

The later flashes would be some of that flak since the bolts are exploding for no reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

6:30

Some how ever other time I saw that, I thought that was an A-wing.

You already said that the falcon had higher FTL, that is just splitting hairs. The only time it is shown to be slower then a fighter is in ANH, but it seems to have no trouble keeping up with the rest of the fleet in ROTJ, so it may be that the speed difference is negligible.

All we have is Han's word that the Falcon has a fast hyper-drive, and that means we have no bleeping idea since Han is a known lier when it comes to his ships capabilities.

The Falcon looks to be barely keeping up with the fighters in ROTJ.

Movie canon is the highest canon and contradicts your claims multiple times across the movies.

Then you wouldn't mind coming up with examples?

SW ships have shields, and bab 5 has better maneuverability, I would say they are comparable beyond that.

Seems like they both maneuver into position, and just exchange fire.

Seriously? Do you understand what ECM means? 'Electronic Countermeasures' You seem to be mistaking it with ST cloaking devices, which are a specific type of ECM.

You have yet to prove the problem was ECM and not the distance from what they were trying to scan.

Do you have any proof that Earth accuracy is 'bad'? they have greater engagement ranges then SW, and hit their targets with great frequency, even at those ranges.

Last time I checked engagement ranges were about the same.
1:50 seems like bad aim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYx2MLhYgbI&NR=1

Babylon 5 misses a ship that makes no attempt to dodge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

The first contact with the minbari and earth, the earth scanners were able to tell that the gunports were open.

So someone looked out a window?

Being able to tell that the reactor was going critical may not be anything special by trek standards, but it is more then what SW scanners have been able to pick up.

You mean being able to detect weak magnetic fields, inferred radiation, the visible spectrum... like is shown in Cat and Mouse?

Slave I is more heavily armed then any other ship of its size that we see in any of the movies, and has display screens that show levels of detail that are miles above what x-wings, TIEs and Yavin base have. It's safe to assume that it isn't a 'normal' ship.

We are talking about a capital ship sensors VS fighter sensors. The capital ship sensors should be better if only because they can be bigger, and more powerful.

They can't even protect the object they are shielding in many cases, there are plenty of instances where damage seems to be caused by damage bleeding through the shields.

Please post the examples you have scenes in mind.

At Hoth we see a flash from Imperial blasters at the top of his cockpit, which would have destroyed his craft if it had been unshielded, but we see scorching on that location when he gets out.

Why don't you find a clip of the battle, and show what you mean?

So he didn't want to win at Endor? It seemed like he was trying pretty hard to win, what with the troops on the ground, imperial fleet, and operational main weapon.

The Emperor lost because of a series of unlikely events, and Vader threw him into the reactor..

Only by Lando's intuition, not by any technological marvels on the part of the rebels.

Lando knew that those readings meant that they were being jammed, but that was impossible unless the Empire knew they were coming.

'All forward guns, fire at will, I repeat FIRE (caps shouted)' does not sound like he was specifically ordering them to target their sensors. The fact that all of the earth ships guns fired and managed to do damage on a magnitude similar to what we see the effect of earth ships doing on other earth ships indicates that minbari armor is not necessarily much weaker then earth armor. Much of the ships hull is wafer thin though, so it is of dubious usefulness.

Keep in mind that this was the combined firepower of two Hyperions.

The "battle" that started the E/M war looked a lot like the battle between the Centauri war ship and Babylon 5 which makes sense since Babylon 5 is possibly better armed then many warships.

The mines were all 2 megaton, why would the other ships be destroyed by less?

We see top of the line war ships destroyed quickly by 200 megawatt pulse cannons.

The pulse cannon fires 200,000,000 joules per-second.

A 1 megaton bomb releases 4,184,000,000,000,000 joules in all directions

As stated before, the explosions themselves are inconsistent with the actual effects of a 2-megaton nuke.

Either the VFX are wrong, or the bomb was technobabble. Either way you end up with three 2 megaton bombs.

2:33 A wing flies in straight line and blows up, then the fighters who shot it down, who are flying straight, get blown up by a Y-wing

4:15 falcon and a few other fighters flying in a straight line over a SD while they have TIEs on their tails.

6:30 x-wing and a-wing fly in a straight line down the spine of the executor and get blown up.

That's just at the battle of endor. On hoth and yavin fighters also do this. SW fighters are just as capable of flying in straight lines and getting blown up as starfuries. They just go a little faster and can't maneuver to the same degree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

I don't see what you are talking about at 4:15.

At 6:30 the only thing I see that

Thunderbolts have red engines, starfuries have blue.

The Omega-X Thunderbolts are the only thunderbolts I recall having a redish exhaust.

Vorchan weapons are explosive, I don't know how many times I have said this. i don't know where you got the idea that the shots only needed to come close, considering we only see about two shots miss out of the entire barrage.

You need to prove the weapons act like flak.

It looked like even the missed shots destroyed missiles.

There is no arguing that the missiles in those two instances were defeated through incredibly low-tech means. Missiles being destroyed when hit by the equivalent of space battleship guns should come as no surprise, and does not indicate a weakness on their part other then their ability to be hit, which, seems to be the sort of thing that SW missiles would not necessarily be strong with either, as they only seem to be able to avoid slow moving large objects.

Obi-won defeated the missiles the same way the Centauri did.

Star Wars missiles are faster then Babylon five from the examples we have.

Exactly, it would seem to indicate that they either cannot pick up objects like droids, or they have to be perform scans for specific objects. Whereas B5 can discern what is going on on the sharlin in moments without having to refine its scan.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The droids would be hidden by the fact the escape pod is made from the same stuff they are, and likely gives off more energy then they do.

A reactor that is going to explode will have very noticeable signs.

They were shot down. There is no evidence that the missiles did anything besides fly towards their targets and get shot down. Either back up your claim that they purposefully wasted their missiles, or don't make that claim.

They blew up because they got hit with a few mega-joules from their friends. We see Centauri weapons hit non-explosive targets, and they don't explode.

Furbies show the ability to build things that respond to sensory input.

I fail to see where I said furbies build anything? Furbies are proof that humans can build things that react to sensory input.

The AI a furby has and what would be required for a missile like you mentioned are completely different things. If the technology was so readily available, why don't we use it in our modern missiles?

Part of it has to do with what they have to dodge moving so fast and the ranges that the dodge would have to happen at. Those aren't problems the Drazi missiles have since Centauri bolts are slow in ever way.

Sw has shielded torpedoes?

http://www.starwars.com/databank/techno ... index.html
It's EU, but it explains why they glow, but many other missiles don't.

ce. Vorchan main guns are explosive. the shots that missed did not explode because...they....missed. We don't see a vorchan hit something and not cause a large explosion, even when it hits an armored object and does not cause a catastrophic amount of damage.

Prove the explosions were not the missiles.

You do realize that no matter how you spin it those missiles are horrible.

What does that have to do with anything? That's not a retort, or an agreement, or anything. You are ignoring the point.

The point as I recall was that the forces in Babylon 5 often have very bad aim.

And they don't cause any damage either when they explode out of contact. They explode whenever they hit something similarly to when they do 'flak mode' but they only seem to destroy ships when they score a direct hit. Perhaps if flak mode blasts and impact blasts look identical, then flak blasts are actually from impacts?

It certainly causes trouble for the pilots, and the flak seems to have taken out the shield of the princess's yatch. 6:08 to 6:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LefM1yE ... re=related

Several fighters in ROTJ are destroyed by the falcon when they are in front of the ship.

The key words are "IN FRONT OF" . The Falcon is never shown to fire backwards or to the sides in ROTJ, and in ANH it only fires in a cone that projects from the top and bottom of the ship

You don't see the hypocrisy of using EU sources and then dismissing my claims for using the 'wanked out' EU? I do want to keep it to the movies, and I intend to. The part of with the falcon was not EU though, it was simple observation, so I have not broken my rule. At any rate, if we were using the EU, we wouldn't be having the discussions about blaster flak and SD shield generators, because those points are pretty clearly in my favor if we go by the EU.

The flak comes from the scripts, novelizations, and movies.

Because it makes a lot of widows where TIE fighter pilots are concerned.

X-wing, A-wing, Y-wing, B-wing, and A bleep load of capital ships also kill a lot of TIE and Star Destroyer. You are going to have to show a much higher kill count for the Falcon then any other ship.

How about vs those ATATs? Some PTs homing in on those weakspots sure would have helped, instead they used blaster turrets and speeder blasters, and tow cables.

Prove the rebels had any proton torpedos at that time, and the fighters could do what you propose.

Or on Endor, some PT fired from those calamari ships would have been a nasty surprise for the executor bridge, or vica verca. Would have helped out against those TIEs too.

The Rebel capital ships did just fine, and we don't see most of the battle at Endor, and the rebels have a limited amount of missiles.

we see a few flashes on the surface when it is in ackbar's window. We see none at all besides that, and we see no flashes definitively being caused by rebel fleetships.

We see the SSD slug it out with a Nebula B.

I really don't like the idea of the shields going down for no reason.

a quad turret on the x-wing would require a gunner, the only turreted rebel fighter we see is the Y-wing, and it has a crew of two.

The idea would likely work best with a pilot and a gunner, but it could still be a single person fighter. There is always the astromech.

Yes, the falcon fired in forward arcs, doesn't this contradict what you were talking about earlier?

Yes, the falcon fired in forward arcs, doesn't this contradict what you were talking about earlier?

You are the one saying the Falcon can fire in any direction when it never has been shown to do such a thing.

It does comparable damage to TIEs. We really don't have any other comparison to go on besides that, but neither weapon seems to have any trouble with TIEs.

That doesn't tell us anything since TIE are not known to be durable. They are like Zeros.

So why do you think that the obviously sublight centauri weapons should be undogeable
as lasers?

I don't think Centauri weapons are un-dodge-able.

You have failed to provide any evidence that the Narn ship dodged, or even could.

Proof please. We do not see any evidence that centauri aim concerning B5 was off in any way. B5 was using interceptors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
Centauri missing.
3:59
4:02
4:24

Babylon 5 missing
4:37

Like an AI.

I guess we have AI in the real world then.

Again, we never see a ship destroyed by one of these indirect hits. We see flak detonating at variable distances from the fighters. We only see shots detonating in proximity to other objects, we don't see them fly off and explode with nothing around. Either SW fighters have some sort of device that can tell the distance between the craft and set the next shot to detonate at a certain distance, the shots are proximity detonated, or shields have some form of destabilizing effect on shots that come within a certain distance. Considering how shoddy most SW targeting computers are, the advanced flak calculating computer idea doesn't seem too plausible. combined with the uselessness of these flak blasts for causing damage, there really isn't much logic in arguing for such a weapon. As for the near misses, we know SW shields are unreliable in that direct hits will cause damage, so it might be that SW shields are most reliable at certain angles.

There isn't any logic for arguing against such a weapon. It's in all of G-canon

R2 was hit by a shot, not a blast from a nearby explosion, that deos not support your argument. There is no real evidence for either position, as onscreen evidence can be easily interpreted either way. Which is why I have been trying to prove it via the common sense of the weapon being inconsistent with targeting computer quality and the overall ineffectiveness of the proximity explosions in destroying ships

the flak seems to have taken out the shield of the princess's yatch. 6:08 to 6:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LefM1yE ... re=related

dead link. I'm rewatching all the planet killer episodes to find mention of its effects. In the meantime, the wiki says it destroys planets, for what that's worth.

Destroy is very vague.

http://web.archive.org/web/200709290402 ... onthe.net/
http://web.archive.org/web/200709182018 ... t/vorlons/
http://web.archive.org/web/200709180058 ... s/vpk.html

Defining a g is not proof that SW ships accelerate to higher Gs.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWfalcaccel.html

Since the Narn and EA lack gravity tech things like Omega destroyers lack certain staples of sci-fi like inertial dampers, and that means they have to move slowly or they start having problems with inertia unless they start accelerate slowly(less then one G as I understand it.)

They do not have higher yields as evidenced by the fact that a TIE does damage to R2 comparable to an E-11, which in turn only wounds Leia.

What E-11 that wounds Leia are you talking about?

That TIE had to shoot through a shield to hit R2-D2.

We see ATAT guns make small explosions on the ground. The only evidence we have of overwhelming firepower on the part of SW outside of EU is the DS, and that is something of an outlier.

AT-AT guns seem more powerful then modern tank guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-qlfMjgBp0

Overwhelming firepower is a relative thing. We have already established that Star Wars uses weapons on capital ships that are one to two orders of magnutude more powerful then those on the younger races ships in Babylon 5.

Wow, talk about cherrypicking. It was numerous hits from those 200 MW guns as well as interceptor fire from B5 that took down the Primus, in case you didn't notice.

It's not cherry picking. It's the stated firepower for anti-capital ship weapons, and is enough to easily kill a top of the line war ship in

You do realize that if interceptors are credible anti-capital ship weapons it makes Babylon 5 armor weaker

4:21 one or two Star Fury shots. no hull breaches

About 4:40 we have about at most 4 pulse cannon bolts hit and start fires

at about 4:41 we have 2 or 3 point on the front of the ship just below the hanger

at about 4:41 the bottom of the right wing is hit by 2 or 3 pulse bolts

4:42 2 bolts from a star fury to the left prong in front of the hanger

4:43 2 pulse bolt hits the right wing

4:43 2 pulse bolts hit the right fin

4:46 8 hits from a star fury strafing run

5:04 the Primus is rocked by internal explosions

5:12 the primus blows up

Assuming the pulse cannons, and not the weaker interceptors it takes about 600 mega-joules tops to punch through a primus's armor.

Arguing gigajoule firepower in SW, as you have pointed out, earlier in the same post, is ridiculous when it is contradicted by on screen evidence.

That is tera or peta joule, and you have not proven that capital ships in Star Wars do not use those energy levels.

Fighters in Star Wars use anything from kilo to giga-joule level energy weapons.

More resources?

Siege of centauri Prime gives us some estimates on Narn remnant fleet sizes as well as Drazi, this doesn't count the drone fleet the centaur have. On a side note, we see the drazi homeworld in another episode which seems to indicate that the drazi had a lot more resources on their hands, they had large numbers of orbital stations and ships. The centauri and humans have planetary defenses. At the liberation of Mars and earth, we see large numbers of human ships loyal to clark, even after he had lost a large number of ships to the war. The battle of the line showed that the minbari had massive amounts of ships available to them. Any one of the mentioned races should have no problem matching or exceeding imperial numbers at Endor, excepting perhaps the Brakiri and possibly the Drazi.

That's nice and all, but what are the hard numbers you have for Babylon 5. You're being to vague to be useful to your case.

Emperor Palpatine wants the 70,00 light year area that Babylon 5 takes place in conquered, and he magically got the money to do it, years of prep-time, and a bout a million planets in his own galaxy to get man power and other resources from.

The centauri also use it. the interceptors lasted 30 seconds.

The Centauri are never shown using a system remotely like the EA's interceptor system. You need to back up your claim.

I was referring to fighters. B5 capital ships act as artillery platforms, carriers, and point defense. Way to avoid my point and change the subject.

You mean your point was that Babylon 5 capital ships play a similar role as Star Wars capital ships. No one has contested this.

At any rate, comparing B5 ships to beached whales is laughable considering how SW ships move.

A suggest you look at the battle of Endor more closely because the capital ships are shown to move a lot and fast. Star Wars capital ships move like whale sharks in the water at worst, but Babylon 5 capital ships are less maneuverable in general.

The only one of those categories where SW definitively has an edge is shields. Firepower and armor are highly debatable considering some B5 ships are capable of one-shotting other large ships, while SW ships pound on each other all day. Speed difference between fleetships is not noticeable, and fighters is only slightly in SW favor, whereas B5 has greater range, accuracy, and better fighter maneuverability.

six hundred mega-joules(possibly less) to breach the armor of one of the most powerful and advanced of the younger races, but Star Wars armor can seemingly take tera or peta joules. It only when you start looking at the first one that Star Wars starts getting surpassed.

We are mixing up speed and acceleration. In space acceleration is what matters. Babylon 5 has lower accelerations as i have shown you. You can accelerate at one G or a hundred Gs and reach the same speed in space, but it will just take longer.

Severed Dreams gives us a range of less then 700 kilometers for an Omega destroyer, and from War Without End we know the White Star has a range less then 3,000 Kilometers. On the other hand Star Wars will not have ranges above 500 kilometers, and usually no more then the high tens of kilometers.

You are contradicting yourself within the same post again:

What contradiction?

On screen evidence suggests a negligible difference in firepower at least on the fighter scale considering the damage that fighters do to each other. Vs capital ships we have luke's strafing run vs starfury strafing runs on omegas and the primus, both to similar effects.

The best way to judge the firepower of a setting is to find mundane targets with as many known variables as possible. There are to many unknowns about starships.

The best way to judge what a weapon is capable of is to have the give a detailed description of what the weapon can do

A good example is the Excalibur's main guns being tested on asteroids.

[User1555]

That looks nothing like what a Star Fury does to me. The Vorlon fighters have complete control do to their drives.

The effect is the same, even if the method of propulsion is not, you have not refuted my evidence in any way.

Well I don't know of any other footage of Centauri fighters.

Well, the opening during one of the seasons showed one doing a tight loop, so we know they are capable of that, at least. Narn, Vorlon and human fighters all show this ability, as well as the whitestars and shadow scout vessels. Minbari and centauri fighters at the very least can make tight turns at high speeds. There is plenty of evidence for B5 fighters overall having higher maneuverability.

Try to find a clip?

Not on youtube, you will have to see it on netflix or on dvd. It was season 5. Lineer and other rangers in training are sent out into an asteroid field as a test. One of the trainees is suicidal and tries to ram a large asteroid. lineer turns around, shoots the fighter's drive and nudges it out of the way of the asteroid and makes a right-angle turn at high speed to avoid crashing itto it himself.

Just look at the battle of Endor, and all the times shields stop fighters from actually crashing into the ships.

What? you mean the one TIE? it didn't help the A-wing that crashed into the SSD, and didn't keep the Falcon from scraping off its dish on the deathstar II. It didn't protect Darth's fighter from damage from a graze from another TIE.

In both cases the generators were under the shields they generated. Star Wars shields are kind of like water in that if you hit them hard they are hard, but if you slowly try to move through them they are permeable.

Again, the collisions mentioned previously. Regardless of how they act, they don't seem to be terribly strong.

Who says they necessarily noticed the shields down when the dome was destroyed? If the events happenat the same time it means the shield was down before the A-wings blow up the dome.

The officer on the bridge mentioned that the bridge deflector shields were down AFTER the dome exploded, not before. Therefore it can be assumed that either the domes themselves were unshielded, or the A-wings themselves put out enough firepower to get through the shields.

If the shields had gone down prior, we would have expected the guy say his line before the explosion.

The bridge shield wasn't up when the A-wing fire on the dome for some reason.

I was just throwing out random possibilities for why the shields went down since we know the A-wing didn't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
6:14 you will see flashes that appear to be hitting the SSD before we cut to the bridge of the SSD and A-wings.

The later flashes would be some of that flak since the bolts are exploding for no reason.

Right. There is no evidence that the shields were sabotaged. The flashes are seen are not anywhere near the bridge, and there is no evidence that they weren't caused by fighters at any rate. The only damage we definitively see being caused to the SSD is by fighters. Also of note, just prior to seeing the SSD be destroyed, we see that ackbar's ship is still moving to get into position, indicating that they were out of range when he gave the order. It's the only rebel ship visible from the SSD bridge, and it is only ever seen firing on fighters.

All we have is Han's word that the Falcon has a fast hyper-drive, and that means we have no bleeping idea since Han is a known lier when it comes to his ships capabilities.

The Falcon looks to be barely keeping up with the fighters in ROTJ.

We also have evidence that the falcon can go quite fast when it wants to. it was going pretty fast when it made the turn into the DS IIs tunnel. And it DID outrun SD at FTL.

Then you wouldn't mind coming up with examples?

I wouldn't, if I hadn't already given evidence multiple times.

Why don't you find a clip of the battle, and show what you mean?

Videos of Hoth have already been posted. When Luke is talking to Wedge after his gunner got killed.

Seems like they both maneuver into position, and just exchange fire.

Sooo....you agree with me?

Last time I checked engagement ranges were about the same.
1:50 seems like bad aim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYx2MLhYgbI&NR=1

Babylon 5 misses a ship that makes no attempt to dodge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

example 1.....the ships were fast moving and were not going in a straight line, and there is the possibility that whitestars have minbari stealth tech.

Right after that several fighters are taken out with the same guns....smaller targets. proxima battle if anything should be taken as evidence as good accuracy on b5s part.

example 2.....your claim contradicts on screen dialogue which states that the ship was moving, and visual evidence that the centauri aim was spot on. We never see it miss B5. We see some shots that do not connect, but there is no evidence that they were not shot down like the rest of the shots.

At any rate, during both of these battles we see hits at engagement ranges far outside of what we typically see in SW.

You have yet to prove the problem was ECM and not the distance from what they were trying to scan.

Did you watch the scene at all?

2:55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZVGkllXJo

'That's all we got so far, just a silhouette?' 'Scanners are having a hard time locking on, they may be using some sort of stealth technology.'

So someone looked out a window?

The officer did not look out a window. He was using the scanners.

You mean being able to detect weak magnetic fields, inferred radiation, the visible spectrum... like is shown in Cat and Mouse?

They can detect the origin and cause of the magnetic field, inferred radiation, etc without having to specify a scan to look for, say, droids.

We are talking about a capital ship sensors VS fighter sensors. The capital ship sensors should be better if only because they can be bigger, and more powerful.

They still cannot pick anything up behind their command tower. At least Lineer's fighter had an excuse, having ecm technology.

Please post the examples you have scenes in mind.

slave one gets a shot or two through to the shielded jedi starfighter.

Luke's snowspeeder gets shot several times, and takes damage several times of varying seriousness.

Damage to DS I through strafing runs and Proton Torpedoes.

Shield generator on royal naboo yaht gets blown up, destroying the generator. The shields were holding up until then.

In ep 4 a fire breaks out on ship after it gets straffed by a TIE.

Why don't you find a clip of the battle, and show what you mean?

Battle of Hoth pt IIis what you are looking for on youtube, the parts you are looking for are when he climbs out of the cockpit, there is scarring on the top of the cockpit. When he is talking to Wedge, we see several extreme proximity blasts either from 'flak' or direct shield hits.

The Emperor lost because of a series of unlikely events, and Vader threw him into the reactor..

Poor planning. He could have brought more ships, and had any number of those EU weapons that were available. Fact is, DS II had many of the same problems DS I had, and Endor shield generator had many of the same problems.

It certainly causes trouble for the pilots, and the flak seems to have taken out the shield of the princess's yatch. 6:08 to 6:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LefM1yE ... re=related

6:11 we see a blast highlight a elipse/sphere around the ship, so we have some gauge on the extent of the ship's shields.

The shields go down from the generator being hit, which supports my viewpoints on both bleedthrough, and that the domes on SDs hold shield generators.

Lando knew that those readings meant that they were being jammed, but that was impossible unless the Empire knew they were coming.

They were being jammed, it is inferred that they could have found out that the shields were up if they were not being jammed. The jamming only seems to have extended to the shields though.

A lot of people would have died if Lando had not used his smarts.

I don't see what you are talking about at 4:15.

At 6:30 the only thing I see that

Incomplete sentence?

The Omega-X Thunderbolts are the only thunderbolts I recall having a redish exhaust.

All thunderbolts have red exhaust.

You need to prove the weapons act like flak.

It looked like even the missed shots destroyed missiles.

Vorchan guns cause large explosions whenever they hit a target, missile or not, whether they destroy the target or not.

Obi-won defeated the missiles the same way the Centauri did.

Star Wars missiles are faster then Babylon five from the examples we have.

The Vorchans shot down the targets, Obi dropped luggage out the back. Completely different. Star Wars missiles have a dubious record of avoiding obstacles. The only way SW ships seem to have to avoid missiels is to outmaneuver them and hope they hit something, whereas B5 can at least attempt to shoot incoming fire down.

They blew up because they got hit with a few mega-joules from their friends. We see Centauri weapons hit non-explosive targets, and they don't explode.

We see shots from Primus ships cut through armor without exploding. Vorchan weapons fire bolts that look and behave differently. They don't seem to be proximity detonated though, they seem to need to hit their targets, which would indicate great accuracy on the part of the vorchans. against the missiles.

Part of it has to do with what they have to dodge moving so fast and the ranges that the dodge would have to happen at. Those aren't problems the Drazi missiles have since Centauri bolts are slow in ever way.

Centauri bolts are not noticeably slower then SW weapons.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/techno ... index.html
It's EU, but it explains why they glow, but many other missiles don't.

No other shields in the OT glow. shields in SW are almost always invisible. Glow does not necessarily mean shields.

The "battle" that started the E/M war looked a lot like the battle between the Centauri war ship and Babylon 5 which makes sense since Babylon 5 is possibly better armed then many warships.

Minbari have no known interceptor fire. We see what the Primus can do to B5 when only a few shots get through, while it took man hits to destroy the Primus. Centauri have much better tech in many ways then earth does.

We see top of the line war ships destroyed quickly by 200 megawatt pulse cannons.

The pulse cannon fires 200,000,000 joules per-second.

A 1 megaton bomb releases 4,184,000,000,000,000 joules in all directions

Right, but you said that the Black Star took less damage then the black star did.

I fail to see where I said furbies build anything? Furbies are proof that humans can build things that react to sensory input.

furbies are incredibly basic in that regard compared to the military hardware that is being discussed. They really do not have any place in this argument.

Part of it has to do with what they have to dodge moving so fast and the ranges that the dodge would have to happen at. Those aren't problems the Drazi missiles have since Centauri bolts are slow in ever way.

No, the technology is too advanced and expensive to put into modern missiles, this is why we don't include it.

The key words are "IN FRONT OF" . The Falcon is never shown to fire backwards or to the sides in ROTJ, and in ANH it only fires in a cone that projects from the top and bottom of the ship

You are the one saying the Falcon can fire in any direction when it never has been shown to do such a thing.

If the cone projects in a manner like you suggest, why can it fire in front of it?

I find it interesting how you only use EU where it supports your argument, but consistently ignore it where it does not. If you are going to use EU to back your arguments, then don't make claims that are not backed by EU or contradicted by it.

The targeting computer shows two perpendicular grids for the two quad guns, additionally, on several of the passes, we can see that there are no obstructions to the quad gun that would prevent it from turning.

The idea would likely work best with a pilot and a gunner, but it could still be a single person fighter. There is always the astromech.

The fact is, SW does not seem to use this feature though. Astromech droids do not seem to be used for weapons systems.

The flak comes from the scripts, novelizations, and movies.

Can you provide a quote from the novelizations or movies that support this?

X-wing, A-wing, Y-wing, B-wing, and A bleep load of capital ships also kill a lot of TIE and Star Destroyer. You are going to have to show a much higher kill count for the Falcon then any other ship.

The Falcon still has a bigger kill count then any individual pilot. The only rebel capital ship we see blow up fighters is Acckbar's. Once.

Prove the rebels had any proton torpedos at that time, and the fighters could do what you propose.

The Rebel capital ships did just fine, and we don't see most of the battle at Endor, and the rebels have a limited amount of missiles.

X-wings and Y-wings use them, but we only see them being used at Yavin, and they don't seem to be particularly accurate, as they can miss even when the targeting computer says they should hit. Proton Torpedoes in the Pt don't seem to be guided or at least don't require a lock-on. We never see any use of PT in the OT in G canon outside the one battle.

I don't think Centauri weapons are un-dodge-able.

You have failed to provide any evidence that the Narn ship dodged, or even could.

I have. numerous times. The narn ship was moving towards the jumpgate, it's engines were firing. The shots seemed to be spot on from the trajectory of the bolts of the moment of firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
Centauri missing.
3:59
4:02
4:24

Babylon 5 missing
4:37

The centauri miss the narn ship at long range when the narn ship is fleeing to the jumpgate. B5 misses some of the shots at the centauri vessel as it twists. Both times the misses are so close that it is possible none or nearly none of the shots would have missed if the ship had remained still.

I guess we have AI in the real world then.

We do.

There isn't any logic for arguing against such a weapon. It's in all of G-canon

only if your interpretation is followed, an interpretation that makes no sense from a utility standpoint. If one considers them to be shield hits, then it also makes sense from a g-canon standpoint.

Destroy is very vague.

http://web.archive.org/web/200709290402 ... onthe.net/
http://web.archive.org/web/200709182018 ... t/vorlons/
http://web.archive.org/web/200709180058 ... s/vpk.html

Not in that context. 'destroyed the entire planet' implies more then just surface leveling. Fragmentation if not outright annihilation.

That website is useful, I have used it before. However, it does seem to purposefully interpret dialogue and screentime in ways that put a lower cap on b5 firepower.

There is some is some distinction between the intensity of vorlon attacks on colonies and planets. They are often distinguished between in dialogue.

It's not cherry picking. It's the stated firepower for anti-capital ship weapons, and is enough to easily kill a top of the line war ship in

You do realize that if interceptors are credible anti-capital ship weapons it makes Babylon 5 armor weaker

4:21 one or two Star Fury shots. no hull breaches

About 4:40 we have about at most 4 pulse cannon bolts hit and start fires

at about 4:41 we have 2 or 3 point on the front of the ship just below the hanger

at about 4:41 the bottom of the right wing is hit by 2 or 3 pulse bolts

4:42 2 bolts from a star fury to the left prong in front of the hanger

4:43 2 pulse bolt hits the right wing

4:43 2 pulse bolts hit the right fin

4:46 8 hits from a star fury strafing run

5:04 the Primus is rocked by internal explosions

5:12 the primus blows up

Assuming the pulse cannons, and not the weaker interceptors it takes about 600 mega-joules tops to punch through a primus's armor.

Interceptors being powerful enough to damage capital ships speaks to their strength. You seem to be ignoring the number of hits that the ship took to make its armor weaker. it was also implied that the ship was destroyed by an internal chain-reacton. We see similar sized blasts from SW fighters on other fighters, which puts them on a similar power level, but B5 capital ships have been shown to demonstrate much more firepower.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWfalcaccel.html

Since the Narn and EA lack gravity tech things like Omega destroyers lack certain staples of sci-fi like inertial dampers, and that means they have to move slowly or they start having problems with inertia unless they start accelerate slowly(less then one G as I understand it.)

Lots of ships in b5 do have inertial dampeners though, and SW capital ships consistently move sluggishly when out of FTL.

Earth does have artificial gravity, they use it on hyperions and parts of bigger ships.

Earth has limited A. gravity narn and drazi have none. Minbari, Brakiri, centauri, and vorlons have it. Shadows don't need it.

artificial gravity and inertial dampeners are not that big a deal with most of the big powers, esp considering most capital ships aside from the Vree act as artillery platforms and carriers.

Modern fighters often take more then 1 G. So you cannot claim that this is the most they can handle. drag racers alone take up to 5 gs. 1 G is normal earth gravity. 9 gs is what fighter pilots routinely take. Gs is not going to be a problem considering the speeds SW and B5 fighters travel at, even then, many fighters and capital ships have inertial dampeners and artificial gravity.

What E-11 that wounds Leia are you talking about?

That TIE had to shoot through a shield to hit R2-D2.

ROTJ at the door to the bunker a stormtrooper shoots leia and demands their surrender. At another point luke gets shot in the hand on jabba's barge and only the skin on his robotic arm is damaged.

AT-AT guns seem more powerful then modern tank guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-qlfMjgBp0

Overwhelming firepower is a relative thing. We have already established that Star Wars uses weapons on capital ships that are one to two orders of magnutude more powerful then those on the younger races ships in Babylon 5.

That is tera or peta joule, and you have not proven that capital ships in Star Wars do not use those energy levels.

Fighters in Star Wars use anything from kilo to giga-joule level energy weapons.

HEAT rounds tunnel through armor before exploding. They are armor piercing. They produce explosions bigger then those caused by the ATAT. Did you actually watch that video?

We have NOT extablished that SW ships are two orders of magnitude stronger then B5 counterparts. There is not enough on screen evidence to prove their power, wheras B5 weapons often one-shot armored battleships.

You have provided NO evidence to support this claim from G-canon, while G-Canon turbolasers and blasters have been shown to be ineffective against fighters.

That's nice and all, but what are the hard numbers you have for Babylon 5. You're being to vague to be useful to your case.

Emperor Palpatine wants the 70,00 light year area that Babylon 5 takes place in conquered, and he magically got the money to do it, years of prep-time, and a bout a million planets in his own galaxy to get man power and other resources from.

We never see the entirety of the centauri or mars defense fleets, because they are too large to fit on screen in the shot where they are shown. The Drazi homeworld is more developed then any SW planet we see in G-canon outside of couruscant. What we do see from their numbers is that neither the Minbari, Humans, or Centauri would be incapable of fielding a fleet to match the numbers seen at Endor. It was not stated that the emperor magically got all the funds and manpower, only that he had time to prepare. It was also explicitly stated that the shadows and vorlons would be actively involved, and neither of them seem to have much trouble with large armadas either.

The Centauri are never shown using a system remotely like the EA's interceptor system. You need to back up your claim.

except in the often mentioned video where vorchans use their main guns on incoming missiles.

A suggest you look at the battle of Endor more closely because the capital ships are shown to move a lot and fast. Star Wars capital ships move like whale sharks in the water at worst, but Babylon 5 capital ships are less maneuverable in general.

You seem to be using a different scale for fastness for the two universes. We see them turn sluggishly, but that is about it. The star destroyers in particular are just holding position. Nothing seems to be moving at any sort of speed that could be considered fast in the b5 verse.

six hundred mega-joules(possibly less) to breach the armor of one of the most powerful and advanced of the younger races, but Star Wars armor can seemingly take tera or peta joules. It only when you start looking at the first one that Star Wars starts getting surpassed.

We are mixing up speed and acceleration. In space acceleration is what matters. Babylon 5 has lower accelerations as i have shown you. You can accelerate at one G or a hundred Gs and reach the same speed in space, but it will just take longer.

Severed Dreams gives us a range of less then 700 kilometers for an Omega destroyer, and from War Without End we know the White Star has a range less then 3,000 Kilometers. On the other hand Star Wars will not have ranges above 500 kilometers, and usually no more then the high tens of kilometers.

We do not see SW take damage of the magnitude you suggest that I am aware of. If we do, please provide a video and time.

Acceleration is never a factor where most capital ships, considering the only SW ones that seem to be concerned with this in combat situations are the naboo yaht, and the falcon. In B5 we see much of the same, except with whitestars, vree saucers, and vorchans displaying acceleration far greater and with more frequency then we see in SW among comparable ships.

SW fighters go faster when in combat most of the time, but cannot change directions as drastically as a tradeoff.

The best way to judge the firepower of a setting is to find mundane targets with as many known variables as possible. There are to many unknowns about starships.

The best way to judge what a weapon is capable of is to have the give a detailed description of what the weapon can do

A good example is the Excalibur's main guns being tested on asteroids.

Yup. we also have an ATATs guns, the Hoth asteroids, the geonosis asteroids, atst guns, unshielded x/y-wings and TIES, and numerous unfortunate r2 units for SW. From this, we really can't really define SW as having weapons orders of magnitude higher then in b5.

What contradiction?

Claiming that SW has firepower much stronger then B5 based on EU and saying that 200 GT quad guns aren't canon. You are contradicting a stance on canon you had earleir in the same post.

Either the VFX are wrong, or the bomb was technobabble. Either way you end up with three 2 megaton bombs.

Both. technobabble in that the writers obviously didn't know what 2 megatons would do in space. bad vfx in that the explosion did not behave like a nuke would in or ouside of an atmosphere. Hence why I compare it to the sonic mines used in the PT. (besides the similar damage)

Isn't the only place where the 2-megaton figure is mentioned is in the 'unreliable' narration by Londo?

On a side-note, I think some more insight from the rest of the people on these forums would be healthy for this debate. I seems like most people aren't interested right now.

[Lucky]

The effect is the same, even if the method of propulsion is not, you have not refuted my evidence in any way.

The Vorlon fighters move in a fashion that is completely different from a Star Fury. Star Fury can't move on right angles for example.

Well, the opening during one of the seasons showed one doing a tight loop, so we know they are capable of that, at least. Narn, Vorlon and human fighters all show this ability, as well as the whitestars and shadow scout vessels. Minbari and centauri fighters at the very least can make tight turns at high speeds. There is plenty of evidence for B5 fighters overall having higher maneuverability.

If being able to play ballturret is so great then why don't the two best fighters play ball turret?

Not on youtube, you will have to see it on netflix or on dvd. It was season 5. Lineer and other rangers in training are sent out into an asteroid field as a test. One of the trainees is suicidal and tries to ram a large asteroid. lineer turns around, shoots the fighter's drive and nudges it out of the way of the asteroid and makes a right-angle turn at high speed to avoid crashing itto it himself.

Do you know the name of the episode? I own all five seasons.

What? you mean the one TIE? it didn't help the A-wing that crashed into the SSD, and didn't keep the Falcon from scraping off its dish on the deathstar II. It didn't protect Darth's fighter from damage from a graze from another TIE.

First off: you have to keep in mind that there are at least two different types of shields., and it is possible to overcome shields with enough energy.

Secondly: you see several fighter that hit the capital ship shields..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
2:46 tie hits shields
4:28 Y-wing hits shields
4:30 blaster bolt hits shields,
4:32 tiny rebel craft hit shields
4:41 Nebula-B VS SSD with shield flashes
6:05 Falcon loses dish, but no shield flash
6:16 lots of flashes on the Star Destroyers and SSD
6:20 no shield flashes when the A-wing attack the SSD dome thingy
6:26 lots of shield flashes visible
7:17 Note the shields on the reactor, they react to the fighters and missiles

Again, the collisions mentioned previously. Regardless of how they act, they don't seem to be terribly strong.

Then it is up to you to show how much energy is transfered by a fighter that hits a ship.

How much do the fighters mass?

How fast do the fighters at Endor go? They are easily zipping from one area of the battle to the other. look at how fast Wedge's X-wing shrinks to a barely visible speck after leaving the Death Star.

The officer on the bridge mentioned that the bridge deflector shields were down AFTER the dome exploded, not before. Therefore it can be assumed that either the domes themselves were unshielded, or the A-wings themselves put out enough firepower to get through the shields.

If the shields had gone down prior, we would have expected the guy say his line before the explosion.

The guy who says the shields are down is not the guy who is working at the console.

The A-wing blasters show no shield interaction
4:30 blaster bolt hits shields,
6:20 no shield flashes when the A-wing attack the SSD dome thingy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

Right. There is no evidence that the shields were sabotaged.

All I've claimed is that we don't know why the SSD's shield went down, but it was down before the A-wings fire on the dome.

The flashes are seen are not anywhere near the bridge, and there is no evidence that they weren't caused by fighters at any rate. The only damage we definitively see being caused to the SSD is by fighters. Also of note, just prior to seeing the SSD be destroyed, we see that ackbar's ship is still moving to get into position, indicating that they were out of range when he gave the order. It's the only rebel ship visible from the SSD bridge, and it is only ever seen firing on fighters.

First, Fighter weapons would not be visible because they are tiny. If those flashes are fighters then they are exploding fighters.

Second, we don't know how much time passes between cuts. The time that takes place during a cut can be none to to years. You need to prove that minutes to hours didn't pass during the cut.

We also have evidence that the falcon can go quite fast when it wants to. it was going pretty fast when it made the turn into the DS IIs tunnel. And it DID outrun SD at FTL.

Look at the Falcon exiting the Death Star, and compare it to Wedge leaving the Death Star. They will be going as fast as they can. The Falcon looks slower to me.

FTL drives in Star Wars have nothing to do with the STL drives. Having a fast hyper-drive is no help unless you want to go FTL.

I want proof the Falcon out ran the Star Destroyers at FTL.

I wouldn't, if I hadn't already given evidence multiple times.

You have something spesific in mind, and I either missed it, or you missed something. You haven't provided the evidence as far as I can tell. I wouldn't be asking if I knew what you were talking about.
Hoth Asteroids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gzf0kR5AvE
Hoth ground battle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWjj8EKTkWE
Hoth Ground battle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhpS69eA ... re=related
Tantive IV VS Star Destroyer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-W1ONO2Uxo
Endor Space battle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

Videos of Hoth have already been posted. When Luke is talking to Wedge after his gunner got killed.

Then it shouldn't be hard to repost the video, and point out what you are talking about since I don't know. I can't read your mind.

Sooo....you agree with me?

I agree that large capital ships in both Babylon5 and Star Wars seem to just maneuver into range, and slug it out with other capital ships, and do not try to avoid fire ever to my knowledge.

example 1.....the ships were fast moving and were not going in a straight line, and there is the possibility that whitestars have minbari stealth tech.

Right after that several fighters are taken out with the same guns....smaller targets. proxima battle if anything should be taken as evidence as good accuracy on b5s part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYx2MLhYgbI&NR=1
The Omega fires in the general direction of the White stars, but makes no attempt to correct it's aim.

When have White Star ever had any sign it had Minbari ECM?

The Star Fury seem to almost move into the line of fire on purpose, and seemingly made no attempt to avoid the bolts..

example 2.....your claim contradicts on screen dialogue which states that the ship was moving, and visual evidence that the centauri aim was spot on. We never see it miss B5. We see some shots that do not connect, but there is no evidence that they were not shot down like the rest of the shots.

The Narn heavy cruiser was barely able to move, was only moving in a straight line to the jump gate, and made no attempt to dodge

The Centauri war ship was stationary in relation to Babylon 5 throughout the entire battle.

Babylon 5 is stuck in orbit of a planet, can not maneuver at all, and is a very large object.

The only damage to Babylon 5 is at 4:24, and a Star Fury took a glancing blow at 4:02. The Centauri aim was not very good.

Babylon 5 missed the Centauri war ship even though the Centauri ship was not moving, and Sheridan ordered Time On Target. He wanted every gun shooting the Centauri ship hit with every gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

At any rate, during both of these battles we see hits at engagement ranges far outside of what we typically see in SW.

Star Wars ranges look similar to EF and Centauri ranges to me. You are going to need to prove what the combat ranges are for both groups.

Did you watch the scene at all?

2:55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZVGkllXJo

'That's all we got so far, just a silhouette?' 'Scanners are having a hard time locking on, they may be using some sort of stealth technology.'

Your own quote says there are a number of possible reason for the lack of data on the minbari. There is no reason to assume ECM, and Michael Jankowski was an impatient idiot remember.

The officer did not look out a window. He was using the scanners.

But if the Minbari ECM was used the EF scanners would be useless. You just showed no ECM on the Minbari's part, and besides, the Minbari wanted to be friendly even if they were idiots.

They can detect the origin and cause of the magnetic field, inferred radiation, etc without having to specify a scan to look for, say, droids.

They can detect the thermal and magnetic signatures of ships.

Why is R2's escape from the Tantive a low showing? The droids have much lower energy outputs then the escape pod, and are made from pretty much the same stuff.

They still cannot pick anything up behind their command tower. At least Lineer's fighter had an excuse, having ecm technology.

We only know there is a blind spot. We do not know any spisifics about it

slave one gets a shot or two through to the shielded jedi starfighter.

Luke's snowspeeder gets shot several times, and takes damage several times of varying seriousness.

Damage to DS I through strafing runs and Proton Torpedoes.

Shield generator on royal naboo yaht gets blown up, destroying the generator. The shields were holding up until then.

In ep 4 a fire breaks out on ship after it gets straffed by a TIE.

You can shoot through shields like they are not there if you use a powerful enough gun. This covers what Slave-one did, and what happened to the Royal yacht.

The DS-I had very strange shields that are stated to be stupidly powerful magnetic fields, but the proton torpedos didn't really do much if any damage excluding the two Luke fired.

Snow Speeders have no shields from what I've seen. You just don't like the canon flak ability.

I don't recall ever seeing TIE do what you say, but I'm not going to claim it beyond the realm of possibility. Could you please provide video?

Battle of Hoth pt IIis what you are looking for on youtube, the parts you are looking for are when he climbs out of the cockpit, there is scarring on the top of the cockpit. When he is talking to Wedge, we see several extreme proximity blasts either from 'flak' or direct shield hits.

It's not hard to provide links and time stamps. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Poor planning. He could have brought more ships, and had any number of those EU weapons that were available. Fact is, DS II had many of the same problems DS I had, and Endor shield generator had many of the same problems.

The Empire out numbered the Rebels something like two to one in space.

The Empire had more then enough troops on the ground to deal with the Rebel commando team, and had men hidden in the bunker waiting for the Rebels.

The Ewoks nearly ate the Rebel team.

Even with the Ewoks help the Rebels only won in time because of one stupid AT-ST pilot who opened the hatch.

The Rebels won at Endor for two reasons:
1) The unlikely help from the Ewoks who tried to have the Rebels for dinner.

2) An AT-ST pilot opening a hatch so Chewbacca could get in it.

3) In spite of still having pretty much every advantage the Imperial space forces ran away.

6:11 we see a blast highlight a elipse/sphere around the ship, so we have some gauge on the extent of the ship's shields.

The shields go down from the generator being hit, which supports my viewpoints on both bleedthrough, and that the domes on SDs hold shield generators.

That looks like there are shields that are near hull hugging like most shields in Star Wars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LefM1yE ... re=related

They were being jammed, it is inferred that they could have found out that the shields were up if they were not being jammed. The jamming only seems to have extended to the shields though.

A lot of people would have died if Lando had not used his smarts.

The Rebels were so sure the empire didn't know what they were up to they weren't checking their instruments.

StarWars ECM actual sounds a lot like Minbari ECM.

Incomplete sentence?

To be honest, I'm not sure. I can't find what I was replying to with:
I don't see what you are talking about at 4:15.

At 6:30 the only thing I see that

All thunderbolts have red exhaust.

Thunderbolt Star Fury without red exhaust.
http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/File:Thu ... iles01.jpg
http://www.denimfilms.com/b5swccg/Thunderbolt.jpg

Vorchan guns cause large explosions whenever they hit a target, missile or not, whether they destroy the target or not.

You wouldn't happen to have a quote or clip that shows vorchan guns cause large explosions when ever they hit? What you are describing sounds like an omega destroyer's plasma weapons being hit by interceptor fire.

The Vorchans shot down the targets, Obi dropped luggage out the back. Completely different. Star Wars missiles have a dubious record of avoiding obstacles. The only way SW ships seem to have to avoid missiels is to outmaneuver them and hope they hit something, whereas B5 can at least attempt to shoot incoming fire down.

The Vorchan just fired in the general direction of a lot of Drazi missiles from what I saw, and A jedi just threw a lot of junk at a missile. There isn't a big difference IMO.

Only Babylon 5 capital ship try to shoot bolts and missiles, and Star Wars has shields making missiles not very effective for use against capital ships..

I don't recall fighter shooting down missiles in babylon 5.

We see shots from Primus ships cut through armor without exploding. Vorchan weapons fire bolts that look and behave differently. They don't seem to be proximity detonated though, they seem to need to hit their targets, which would indicate great accuracy on the part of the vorchans. against the missiles.

The bolts a vorchan fires act like the bolts an omega fires is what you are claiming?

I don't see great accuracy on the part of a vorchan since the targets were large and very slow, and the vorchan missed several times.

Centauri bolts are not noticeably slower then SW weapons.

Star Wars bolts move at the speed of plot. if you look you will find bolts that are much faster, and bolts that slower. You will find that bolts cross the distance in about a set number of frames in star wars as I recall.

No other shields in the OT glow. shields in SW are almost always invisible. Glow does not necessarily mean shields.

Shields glow in the OT when hit by things, and the glow seems similar.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/techno ... index.html
You can see a little flame coming out the rear, and the cone shaped torpedo surrounded by a whitish shield like glow.

Minbari have no known interceptor fire. We see what the Primus can do to B5 when only a few shots get through, while it took man hits to destroy the Primus. Centauri have much better tech in many ways then earth does.

I was talking about the primous lobbing large numbers of bolts in the general direction of it's mostly stationary targets and missing often.

Right, but you said that the Black Star took less damage then the black star did.

???I'm confused, where did I say the Black Star took less damage then the Black Star???

The Black Star could not have been hit by more then 2 megatons total, and likely received less energy then 2 megatons, and Star Wars uses high kilotons to low megatons in beam/bolt form.

furbies are incredibly basic in that regard compared to the military hardware that is being discussed. They really do not have any place in this argument.

No, furbies are incredibly advanced compared to the drazi missiles since they react. It's not hard to makes something that will avoid something.

No, the technology is too advanced and expensive to put into modern missiles, this is why we don't include it.

And what proof do you have that there aren't missiles that take evasive action? I seem to recall posting information that said there were missiles that took evasive action. Keep in mind that we are talking about a group of people from the future when it comes to babylon 5.

If the cone projects in a manner like you suggest, why can it fire in front of it?

Unless you have gunners the guns would have to be aimed from the cockpit, and they would have a limited view.

I find it interesting how you only use EU where it supports your argument, but consistently ignore it where it does not. If you are going to use EU to back your arguments, then don't make claims that are not backed by EU or contradicted by it.

I only recall using the EU when it supports G-canon.

The targeting computer shows two perpendicular grids for the two quad guns, additionally, on several of the passes, we can see that there are no obstructions to the quad gun that would prevent it from turning.

That grid would likely be for figuring out if the target was in range.

Weather or not there are obstructions does not matter. All that matters is that the guns are not used in such a manner.

Can you provide a quote from the novelizations or movies that support this?

EXTERIOR: SPACE -- MILLENNIUM FALCON

The Millennium Falcon speeds away from Hoth, closely
followed by one huge Star Destroyer and four tiny TIE
fighters.
As it is pursued, the Falcon races toward two very bright
star-sized objects.

INTERIOR: MILLENNIUM FALCON -- COCKPIT

Inside the cockpit, Chewie lets out a loud howl. Han checks
as the ship is buffeted by exploding flak. He appears to be
doing six things at once.

HAN: (harried) I saw them! I saw them!

LEIA: Saw what?

HAN: Star Destroyers, two of them, coming right at us.

Threepio bumps and bangs his way into the cockpit.

THREEPIO: Sir, sir! Might I suggest...

HAN: (to Leia) Shut him up or shut him down! (to Chewie) Check the
deflector shield!

Chewie barks a reply as he readjusts an overhead switch.

HAN: Oh, great. Well, we can still outmaneuver them.

INTERIOR: NABOO SPACECRAFT - COCKPIT 

The PILOT, RIC OLIE, navigates toward the massive battleship, QUI-GON
and CAPTAIN PANAKA watch. 

RIC OLIE: ....our communications are still jammed. 

[...]

EXTERIOR: SPACE BATTLE (FX)

The Naboo spacecraft, surrounded by EXPLOSIONS, heads even closer 
to the massive Federation battleships.

INTERIOR: NABOO SPACECRAFT - COCKPIT

RIC OLIE: There's the blockade, hang on.

ALARM SOUNDS fill the cockpit as OBI-WAN enters.

RIC OLIE: (Cont'd) The shield generator's been hit. Our deflector 
shields can't with stand this. Power down... Hopefully the repair 
droids can fix it.

[...]

RIC OLIE: We won't make it. The shields are gone.

EXTERIOR: NABOO SPACECRAFT - FEDERATION BATTLESHIP - SPACE (FX)

The DROIDS pop onto the exterior of the Naboo spacecraft; The ship 
races across the surface of the massive Federation battleship, as its 
guns blast TWO ASTRO DROIDS.

OBI-WAN: We're losing droids fast.

CAPT. PANAKA: If they can't get those shield generators fixed, we will 
be sitting ducks.

RIC OLIE: The shields are gone.

EXTERIOR: NABOO SPACECRAFT - ENGINES - SPACE (FX)

The Federation battleship blows away ONE MORE ASTRO DROID. The BLUE 
DROID connects some wires, causing sparks to fly.

RIC OLIE: Powers back! That little droid did it. He bypassed the main
power drive. Deflector shield up, at maximum. 

The lone BLUE DROID finishes his repairs and goes back into the ship.
The Naboo spacecraft races away from the Federation battleship.

"In the Millennium Falcon, Lando steered like a maniac through an obstacle course of the giant, floating Imperial Star Destroyers -trading laser bolts with them, dodging flak, outracing TIE fighters.

Desperately, he was shouting into his comlink, over the noise of continuous explosions, talking to Ackbar in the Alliance command ship. 'I said closer! Move in as close as you can and engage the Star Destroyers at point blank range - that way the Death Star won't be able to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!'

'But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their destroyers and our cruisers!' Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable - but their options were running out.

'Great!' yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the destroyer. 'Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!'

'We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!' Ackbar protested.

'We know as much as they do!' Lando hollered. 'And they'll think we know more!' Bluffing was always dangerous in the last hand: but sometimes, when all your money was in the pot, it was the only way to win - and Lando never played to lose.

'At that close-range, we won't last long against Star Destroyers.' Ackbar was already feeling giddy with resignation.

'We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star and we might just take a few of them with us!' Lando whooped. With a jolt, one of his forward guns was blown away. He put the Falcon into a controlled spin, and careened around the belly of the Imperial leviathan.

With little else to lose, Ackbar decided to try Calrissian's strategy. In the next minutes, dozens of Rebel Cruisers moved in astronomically close to the Imperial Star Destroyers - and the colossal antagonists began blasting away at each other, like tanks at twenty paces, while hundreds of tiny fighters raced across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they chased around the massive hulls."

"Antifighter flak flashed on all sides."

"Obi-Wan's starfighter streaked along the curve of the Separatist cruiser's dorsal hull.  Antifighter flak burst on all sides as the cruiser's guns tried to pick him up.  [...] This low and close to the deck, the cruiser's antifighter guns couldn't depress their angle of fire enough to get a shot [...]"

Are those the quotes you wanted?

The Falcon still has a bigger kill count then any individual pilot. The only rebel capital ship we see blow up fighters is Acckbar's. Once.

Sadly there was a big battle going on, and a bleep load more TIE then we see blow up.

X-wings and Y-wings use them, but we only see them being used at Yavin, and they don't seem to be particularly accurate, as they can miss even when the targeting computer says they should hit. Proton Torpedoes in the Pt don't seem to be guided or at least don't require a lock-on. We never see any use of PT in the OT in G canon outside the one battle.

One would expect it to be harder to get missiles then what blasters shoot.

Proton Torpedos are used in episodes 1, 4, and 6, and are used in SW:TCW

The exhaust port was 2 meters( 6.56167 feet ) wide, and the guys who made the shots were only off by a tiny bit. That kind of shooting is at least par with Babylon 5 excluding Minbari and first ones.

I have. numerous times. The narn ship was moving towards the jumpgate, it's engines were firing. The shots seemed to be spot on from the trajectory of the bolts of the moment of firing.

The shots seemed to be, but weren't on target. There is no sign the Narn vessel did anything besides move towards the jump gate in a straight line.

I see nothing to show the Centauri vessel moved.

The Centauri still missed Babylon 5, and it did not move.

Not in that context. 'destroyed the entire planet' implies more then just surface leveling. Fragmentation if not outright annihilation.

"If you are from the Ventari system, you are asked not to return until authorized."

"Reports coming in from survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale.  We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly.  We're in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground."

"All medical ships in the area are being asked to help with the evacuation."

If planets were being blasted apart death star style then there would be no reason for there to be any need of atmosphere capable craft, there would be no survivors, and there would not be any place to return to.

Destroyed is very vague. All we can be sure of is the planets are still there after the Vorlons blast them, and that there are at times survivors, but that leaves a lot of wiggle room for how powerful the planet killers are. The asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs left survivors, but the planet could have been said to have been destroyed from a certain point of view.

That website is useful, I have used it before. However, it does seem to purposefully interpret dialogue and screentime in ways that put a lower cap on b5 firepower.

You'll find that with most of the works by the people who made it unless it is star wars, and maybe 40K, and Babylon 5 sets it's self up for this treatment with the 200 megawatt anti-capital ship weapons, the Black Star and 3 other Minbari war ships dieing to less then 2 megatons, and less then 500 megatons destroying an Battle Crab.

There is some is some distinction between the intensity of vorlon attacks on colonies and planets. They are often distinguished between in dialogue.

You will have to point out to me what quotes you mean.

Interceptors being powerful enough to damage capital ships speaks to their strength. You seem to be ignoring the number of hits that the ship took to make its armor weaker. it was also implied that the ship was destroyed by an internal chain-reacton. We see similar sized blasts from SW fighters on other fighters, which puts them on a similar power level, but B5 capital ships have been shown to demonstrate much more firepower.

Interceptors being powerful enough to damage capital ships speaks to their strength. You seem to be ignoring the number of hits that the ship took to make its armor weaker.

The interceptors are designed to have a high rate of fire, and to be accurate. In order to have a high rate of fire the interceptors need to recharge their capacitors quickly. In order to recharge the capacitors faster they would need to hold less energy. This is why the main guns on the warlock class and excalibur class have such a low rate of fire.

If the interceptors are just as powerful as the pulse cannons then there is no point to the pulse cannons since the interceptors would be better in every way.

The number of hits doesn't matter since it only took two or three hits in one place to breach the hull, and Babylon 5 was was shooting at random points on the hull and never hitting the same point with more then one volley. Only 400 to 600 mega-joules hit any one point to breach the hull every time.

it was also implied that the ship was destroyed by an internal chain-reacton. We see similar sized blasts from SW fighters on other fighters, which puts them on a similar power level, but B5 capital ships have been shown to demonstrate much more firepower.

Aren't Centauri ship powered by anti-matter? It certainly looked like the reactor lost containment, but it doesn't matter since we know Centauri warship hulls are breached by 400 to 600 joules. There isn't much reason to think most races use more fire power then the Earth Force.

YOu are going to need to do better then they both make bright flashes.

Lots of ships in b5 do have inertial dampeners though, and SW capital ships consistently move sluggishly when out of FTL.

The problem is the with ID tech don't drastically out perform the ships with ID tech in Babylon 5.

Earth does have artificial gravity, they use it on hyperions and parts of bigger ships.

I believe you mean Omega destroyers, and the rotating sections don't provide ID.

Earth has limited A. gravity narn and drazi have none. Minbari, Brakiri, centauri, and vorlons have it. Shadows don't need it.

The EF doesn't have AG on it's ships until the warlock class. No ID tech for EF until the warlock.

Given the Brakiri are such a minor race, when are we even shown their ships?

How do we know Vorlon and Shadow have AG tech?

artificial gravity and inertial dampeners are not that big a deal with most of the big powers, esp considering most capital ships aside from the Vree act as artillery platforms and carriers.

If ID tech is not a big deal then the ships must be slow in Babylon5.

Most war ships in Babylon 5 and Star Wars are a cross between carriers and battle ships. The concept has no been successfully used in wet navies because of trade offs that a space ship would not have to make.

Modern fighters often take more then 1 G. So you cannot claim that this is the most they can handle. drag racers alone take up to 5 gs. 1 G is normal earth gravity. 9 gs is what fighter pilots routinely take. Gs is not going to be a problem considering the speeds SW and B5 fighters travel at, even then, many fighters and capital ships have inertial dampeners and artificial gravity.

Have you ever been on a boat when it starts accelerating, and nearly fall over? That is the problem the crew of large ships like Omega destroyers would face. Everything will seemingly go flying in the opposite direction the ship is moving because of a lack of ID tech.

Star Fury are merely limited by the number of Gs their pilots can take.
A human can usual take about 5g without training as I recall, and a human with training can take something like 15 often as I recall, but constantly taking the maximum number of Gs you can is bad for your health. The Star Fury will likely not accelerate faster then the average pilot can easily deal with without risk of problems over something like 5g you start having blood flow problems.

I take it you keep ignoring the battle of Endor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
At 2:04 you will note those tiny specks are Star Destroyers

At 3:23 we see from the Star Destroyers point of view. I wonder exactly how far apart both sides are.

At 4:17 we see rebel ships have crossed the distance, and are at point blank range

ROTJ at the door to the bunker a stormtrooper shoots leia and demands their surrender. At another point luke gets shot in the hand on jabba's barge and only the skin on his robotic arm is damaged.

We have very little information about what Luke's hand is made out of, and we know there are different models of blaster with different levels of fire power just like real guns.

The bolt that hit Leia's arm is the weakest blaster shot I know of

HEAT rounds tunnel through armor before exploding. They are armor piercing. They produce explosions bigger then those caused by the ATAT. Did you actually watch that video?

I did, and like the tanks and the AT-AT bolts had varying effects.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-qlfMjgBp0
Look at the blast at about 0:05
The big problem is the effects in the movies are gasoline explosions so they will look wrong

We have NOT extablished that SW ships are two orders of magnitude stronger then B5 counterparts. There is not enough on screen evidence to prove their power, wheras B5 weapons often one-shot armored battleships.

200 megawatt guns are considered impressive in Babylon 5.

G-canon says capital ship turbolasers can vaporize a small town in a single shot.

There is a big difference there.

You have provided NO evidence to support this claim from G-canon, while G-Canon turbolasers and blasters have been shown to be ineffective against fighters.

Novelizations are G-canon except where they directly contradict the movies just like the scripts..

Turbolasers are not designed to target fighters last time I checked. They are heavy weapons like the sixteen inch guns on.

I'd like to know what makes you think blasters are not good for shooting down fighters. You keep pointing out how great the Falcon's blasters are for shooting down fighters, and unlike Babylon 5, fighter pilots in Star Wars try not to get shot down.

We never see the entirety of the centauri or mars defense fleets, because they are too large to fit on screen in the shot where they are shown.

You don't even have an estimation based on quotes?

There was something like 30 omega guarding the Sol system, and far fewer everywhere else, correct?

There's something like 10 Narn warships left after the Narn/Centauri war as I recall.

The Drazi homeworld is more developed then any SW planet we see in G-canon outside of couruscant.

We see next to nothing of the Star Wars galaxy in G-canon, you can't make an honest conclusion from just G-canon because the sample size is just to small. I'd suggest you add T-canon at least when judging planets in Star Wars.

Most places aside from home worlds seem barely developed in Babylon 5 from what I recall.

What we do see from their numbers is that neither the Minbari, Humans, or Centauri would be incapable of fielding a fleet to match the numbers seen at Endor.

The only races I recall being able to individually gather such fleets in Babylon 5 are the Vorlons and Shadows

It was not stated that the emperor magically got all the funds and manpower, only that he had time to prepare.

It's implied the Empire gets the money from somewhere to fund the invasion because other wise there is no invasion. As stupid as it sounds the Republic could not afford five million more clones, and the Empire needs all the ships it has in service to police it's territory.

I suppose the Empire would have to do some trading anyway. I'm sure most races would love to get their hands on the stun setting blasters have, and repulsor lift tech would be of interest to the EA and Narn at least.

It was also explicitly stated that the shadows and vorlons would be actively involved, and neither of them seem to have much trouble with large armadas either.

Well we see half of their forces at the battle of corianna VI as I recall. It would be best for the Babylon 5 side if the Vorlons and Shadows stayed hidden until the Empire makes it's move.

except in the often mentioned video where vorchans use their main guns on incoming missiles.

Nope, the Centauri are not shown to have a system remotely similar to the EF interceptor system. Those guns are forward firing only, and they only fired in the general direction of slow moving large objects.

You seem to be using a different scale for fastness for the two universes. We see them turn sluggishly, but that is about it. The star destroyers in particular are just holding position. Nothing seems to be moving at any sort of speed that could be considered fast in the b5 verse.

We've been over this already.

Fast for Babylon 5 seems to be in the low g for capital ships since the EF and NR are not considered slow at one g or less.


Star Destroyers are faster then the Falcon, and the Falcon has been clocked at 20+ g.

We do not see SW take damage of the magnitude you suggest that I am aware of. If we do, please provide a video and time.

Movie novelizations are G-canon as are scripts and radio dramas. We are told the bolts capital ships fire at each other are able to vaporize a small town, and to do that you need high kilotons to low megatons depending on how literally you want that town vaporized.

Acceleration is never a factor where most capital ships, considering the only SW ones that seem to be concerned with this in combat situations are the naboo yaht, and the falcon. In B5 we see much of the same, except with whitestars, vree saucers, and vorchans displaying acceleration far greater and with more frequency then we see in SW among comparable ships.

You are only paying attention to abnormal battles that take place at unusually close range. You really need to pat attention to what the characters say.

SW fighters go faster when in combat most of the time, but cannot change directions as drastically as a tradeoff.

Prove SW fighters can not change the direction as easily as B5 fighters.

Yup. we also have an ATATs guns, the Hoth asteroids, the geonosis asteroids, atst guns, unshielded x/y-wings and TIES, and numerous unfortunate r2 units for SW. From this, we really can't really define SW as having weapons orders of magnitude higher then in b5.

200 megawatts is the output of respectable anti-capital ship weapons in babylon 5, and it only takes two to three pulses to cause hull breaches, and for big guns like those of the Excalibur you will likely get high kilotons to low megatons.

The AT-AT guns have a yield of about 10 to 100 mega-joules.
http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php ... ns_in_TESB

AT-ST seem to have guns in the low mega-joule(1-10) range.
http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php ... ns_in_ROTJ

The asteroids shot by Slave-I showed mega-joule to gige-joules levels of fire power.
http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php ... gy_weapons

We have no idea what the Hoth asteroids are made of. They do strange stuff like burn for example. If you would like to assume they are normal asteriods the they show kiloton to megaton firepower. Kiloton to megaton blasts are in line with what we in ROTS.
http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php ... d_blasting

We have never seen an unshielded X- or Y-wing shot down, and we don't know what they are made of.

we don't know what R2 units and TIE fighters are made of, or what they are rated to take.

Claiming that SW has firepower much stronger then B5 based on EU and saying that 200 GT quad guns aren't canon. You are contradicting a stance on canon you had earleir in the same post.

Read what I typed more carefully. I've never claimed Star Wars uses gigaton weapons as standard, or that they have any.

Both. technobabble in that the writers obviously didn't know what 2 megatons would do in space. bad vfx in that the explosion did not behave like a nuke would in or ouside of an atmosphere. Hence why I compare it to the sonic mines used in the PT. (besides the similar damage)

Isn't the only place where the 2-megaton figure is mentioned is in the 'unreliable' narration by Londo?

Londo is likely an unreliable narrator, but the 2 megaton figure comes from John Sheridan himself. John also gave details Londo did not.We just know from John that it takes less then 4..184 peta-joulse to destroy the standard Minbari war ship, and less then 8.368 peta-joulses to destroy the Black Star.

On a side-note, I think some more insight from the rest of the people on these forums would be healthy for this debate. I seems like most people aren't interested right now.

That is kind of why there are moderators here.

[User1555]

I'm going to attempt condensing my replies in order to cut down on text walls:

Flak:

You have demonstrated enough sources to prove that SW uses flack, although I cannot see the benefit to this form of weapon.

The Centauri attack B5 and the G'Quan:

The Centauri open fire on B5 and the G'Quan simultaneously. We know that the G'quan is firing its engines and that B5 is using its interceptors. We do NOT see the Centauri miss B5, we only see them miss the G'Quan, which was moving. Either the G'Quan outran the shots or they were never on target to begin with, but the distance at which the shots were fired does not leave out the possibility for maneuverability as a countermeasure for incoming fire. At least one of the shots fired at Zeta squadron found their target, despite the range.

B5 has three kinds of interceptor, but we only see the rapid-fire ones hit the Primus. The Primus is twisting at the time of impact, it would appear that this was an attempt at an evasive maneuver, which was only partially successful. There is no noticeable difference in damage dealt by the starfuries and the interceptors to the Primus.

The Primus only seems to fire at the station and G'quan with some of its guns. It does not launch fighters, despite having a hanger, for whatever reason.

The Centauri attack the Drazi Sunhawks:

The Drazi open fire first with their missiles, which are slimmer if not shorter then most fighters. The centauri open fire with their main guns, although we do not know what time difference there is between the drazi firing and the centauri firing. All of the missiles are destroyed at close range with high accuracy. The missiles do not appear to take evasive maneuvers to avoid the centauri shots, we do not know if they are homing because all of them are destroyed without hitting a centauri ship. As the centauri destroy the missiles, they appear to fire fewer shots then there are missiles, yet destroy all of them. This indicates that either the missiles were destroyed in a chain reaction, or the bolts themselves destroyed the missiles in their explosions.

After this, the Vorchans return fire with propelled spherical bombs, of which vorchans seem to be able to carry at least 5 of each. The Drazi attempt evasive maneuvers, but the bombs are not dumbfired, and home into the drazi ships. It is unknown if the drazi shot down any bombs before this point, as we do not see them doing so. The Vorchans then open fire on the Drazi Sunhawks with their main guns at unknown range, presumably destroying the Drazi Sunhawks, as we later see a group of Vorchans amongst the wreckage of several drazi sunhawks.

Destruction of the Black Star:

The nuclear blast is inconsistent with expected behavior in a vacuum, ditto for the linear damage pattern on the black star after the first mine. the mines are shown exploding and the 2-megaton figure are both given only in this one scene, which you have called unreliable. Two figures for the potency of earth mines in the same scene, effectively. The minbari only have bad armor if the audio evidence is used, not if the visual evidence is used.

Fighter capabilities:

Starfuries, Thunderbolts, and Frazi fighters all have demonstrated the ability to turn 18 degrees while moving in a straight line and continue in the opposite driection without deviating from said line. Vorlon fighters are even more nimble, traveling in arcs around enemy ships with the front of their ships pointed at their target, while younger races can only perform this maneuver while traveling in a straight line.

SW fighters by comparison must turn via arcs, and do not have this capability. Deltawings Nials, and Shadow fighters move in a manner similar to this, and all B5 fighters seem to be capable of moving in a manner similar to this-they only 'ball-turret' when in close combat with other fighters or capital ships.

SW fighters seem to go faster then B5 ones overall-they keep up a high speed even when engaged, while B5 fighters slow down to maneuver when engaged.

Starfuries, Thunderbolts, Deltawings, X-wings, and Y-wings seem to have the ability to carry missiles or proton torpedoes. Guidance capabilities are unknown in both categories, as we do not see B5 fighters firing missiles in the normal series (crusade may be another thing) and the proton torpedoes fired at the first death star seem to have had preset maneuvers programed in to perform a right-angle turn at a certain distance. (Luke fired his without having a lock)

SW fighters, or at least most of the rebel ones, have shields, which would be a large advantage over B5 fighters, and they seem to be able to divert shielding to particular segments-as evidenced at Yavin. There does not seem to be any noticeable difference in fighter-borne firepower between the series.

TIEs have off-axis firing but require a lengthy lock-on time to do so.

Rate-of fire is comparable with the exception of the thunderbolt and x-wing, which have greater rates-of-fire then other fighters in their universes.

Nials have stealth technology, and 'can't be tracked at all' (paraphrase) by earth technology. In addition, they have more guns and more powerful guns then anything seen in B5 or SW on the same scale. They can be voice activated to target and lock onto specific parts of other fighters.

In both series, fighters typically fly in a straight line while approaching their target.

Overall, assuming equal numbers in a fight, I would expect most forms of B5 fighters to lose to Rebel fighters due to speed and shielding, but to win against Imperial TIEs. Nials, Shadow fighters, and Vorlon fighters I would expect to do much better.

Vorlons and Shadows:

The vorlons have 3 planet killers, and the shadows have at least two. We see portions of each of their fleets at Corianna, but the volrons have at least thousands of ships-a figure is given when they are spotted in hyperspace. Shadow planet killers can wipe out all life on the surface, and Vorlon planet killers are capable of a wide range of destruction, ranging from wiping out colonies on a planet's surface to turning an entire planet into wreckage. The larger Vorlon ships are capable of shielding themselves, but it is unknown what the limitations on this are. They are capable of stopping a brief shot from a shadow beam, at the least. Shadow fighters can be launched as a large projectile which disperses into fighters at range. Both races are capable of off-axis firing, and shadows are described as 'never missing'.

Neither race seems to have any form of point defense, they seem to rely on their fighters for smaller threats.

Missiles and Proton Torpedoes:

B5 and SW both make use of missiles and similar projectiles, guided and unguided. The high end of SW would be Boba Fett's tracking missile which demonstrated the ability to adjust its flight path to avoid obstacles while homing in it's target. The high end for B5 would be the homing mines that were used by the Centauri Vorchans, which demonstrated these capabilities as well, at a somewhat lesser speed but in greater quantities.

The low ends for SW would be the OT proton torpedo which was dumbfired-Luke fired it without his targeting computer, remember? That would indicate that the PT was set to take a right angle turn at a preset time or distance after firing. The targeting computers in this case would just be an aide for the pilots to know when to fire them, which would explain why timing was so important at the trench run.

The low end for B5 would be the drazi missiles, which are not particularly fast, and do not demonstrate homing or evasive capability in the show.

It is possible that there are homing versions of PT, and that Drazi missiles have homing capabilities, but we never see them in the movies or the show to have this property.

Furbies are nowhere near as advanced as a modern missile, much less one which can recognize and avoid incoming obstacles.

We posses missiles that will perform pre-programmed maneuvers prior to impact to make them harder to track and hit, this does not mean that they will actively avoid incoming fire.

You seem to be of the opinion that furbies have more advanced technology then modern-day missiles. I corrected you and cited sources. You are still clinging to this.

Scanners and Targeting:

SW can scan for lifeforms, and can lock onto enemy fighters and ship features presumably as small as the exhaust port, but not without difficulty. B5 targeting computers can pick up objects as small as a teddy ear with high quality, and scanners have been demonstrated as being capable of picking up specific features such as fusion reactors, lifeforms, and gunports- A wider range of features then is seen in SW G-Canon. Minbari Nial fighters can be voice activated to target and fire upon specific parts of other fighters, while remaining difficult to track by scanners of other races.

Artificial Gravity and Inertial Dampeners:

All SW ships seem to have this, some babylon 5 ships have this. Notably, most earthforce and narn ships do not have this, it is unknown if Drazi have it but unlikely.

Firepower Figures:

Firepower figures for both series are only given in the EU, with the exception of nukes in B5. Comparable weapons in both universes seem to inflict similar damage for the most part, the exception being beam weapons and 'flak' weapons.

Fleet Sizes:

Upwards of 25 Vorchans are seen on screen at the same time returning after the bombing of centauri prime. This is the defense force for centauri prime, and does not take into account the ships defending their holdings elsewhere, or the drone vorchans.

At the bombardment, I counted at least 8 G'Quans which would put the total number of Narn G'Quans post-occupation at around 24+, considering that garibaldi said that about a third of their forces had gone missing. Narn are shown to be capable of building large space stations pre-occupation, and had a much larger fleet.

The same estimation works for the drazi as well, which would give them dozens of sun hawks at least, and a smaller amount of Sky Serpants. The drazi have several orbital facilities present in shots of their homeworld. This figure is after we have seen numerous Sunhawks destroyed in the battle with the Centauri, so it is likely they had many more before this war.

Brakiri capabilities are hard to get a handle on, but we see about half a dozen in a single convoy when it is attacked by Centauri drone Vorchans. Brakiri ships are pretty weak though, despite their large size and artificial gravity-I would not expect them to be much help if the Empire invaded B5 space.

Minbari fielded dozens of sharlins at the battle of the line, and built the whitestars fleet and helped build the Victory and Excalibur.

Humans fielded dozens of Omegas at mars at the end of the Human civil war.

The examples given for the Human, Narn, Centauri, and Drazi fleets is after costly wars with the shadows, as well as inner conflicts.

SW universe has trouble paying for the clone wars era forces, and the largest fleet we see in the OT is at Endor. We don't know what sorts of assets they have elsewhere in G-canon.

The rebels have a somewhat smaller fleet, it is likely that their resources are much smaller then the empires.

Shields:

TIEs, all Imperial and rebel ground vehicles, and possibly landspeeders do not have shields, where all fleetships, transports, and rebel fighters do. shields can be redirected to protect certain parts of a ship. SW seems to have several types of shield, some of which are permeable to solid objects and some of which are not. Shields can experience bleedthrough damage, causing explosions and fires on a ship even when shields are up. Large shield generators are usually internal, but Star Destroyers have at least one shield generator placed on top of the command tower. Where they are vulnerable to bleedthrough damage from fighter-scaled weaponry. SSDs at least, have multiple shield generators, but cannot extend shields from one generator to cover an unshielded area made vulnerable by the destruction of another.

What do you agree with here? Disagree with? I am hoping to get this discussion back on topic with a minimum of splitting hairs over how effective the millennium falcon is or what color exhaust starfuries have. How do you think that the invasion of the B5 galaxy would go if a wormhole opened up? Would an invasion happen at all? Who would invade who?

In my opinion, this topic has gotten so bloated that it is a bit much for one discussion. Perhaps this should be split into separate discussions?

[Lucky]

Sorry about taking so long, but real life was getting in the way, and finding some information was surprisingly difficult for me.

I'm going to attempt condensing my replies in order to cut down on text walls:

Thank you

Flak:

You have demonstrated enough sources to prove that SW uses flack, although I cannot see the benefit to this form of weapon.

Since it is called flak, and causes ships to shake, I would assume it serves a similar purpose as real world flak. it certainly makes flying more difficult, and even a fraction of the energy hitting is better then a complete miss.

The Centauri attack B5 and the G'Quan:

The Centauri open fire on B5 and the G'Quan simultaneously. We know that the G'quan is firing its engines and that B5 is using its interceptors. We do NOT see the Centauri miss B5, we only see them miss the G'Quan, which was moving. Either the G'Quan outran the shots or they were never on target to begin with, but the distance at which the shots were fired does not leave out the possibility for maneuverability as a countermeasure for incoming fire. At least one of the shots fired at Zeta squadron found their target, despite the range.

We see Babylon 5 ignore fire from the Primus . Babylon 5 would not ignore shots coming towards it unless they were not going to hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
At about 4:00 you will see the interceptor system ignore a number of bolts fired by the primus, and the bolts are high. Even when we see the primus take off one of Babylon 5's prongs it stilled missed with many of it's bolts.

The Narn cruiser was in no condition to engage in evasive maneuvers. They were barely able to move in a straight line, and you have yet to provide evidence that the Narn ship dodged. The only logical target was the Narn ship.

B5 has three kinds of interceptor, but we only see the rapid-fire ones hit the Primus. The Primus is twisting at the time of impact, it would appear that this was an attempt at an evasive maneuver, which was only partially successful. There is no noticeable difference in damage dealt by the starfuries and the interceptors to the Primus.

In season 2 episode 10 "GROPOS" we are told they added pulse cannons, mine launchers, and new interceptors.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png
This is a pulse cannon. These are used for attacking capital ship and fighters. They are rated at 200 megawatts. They seem to have no trouble chewing through capital ship hulls in 2 to 3 pulses.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid2.png
This is a pulse cannon or mine launcher. These are for attacking capital ships.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid1.png
Interceptor

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid4.png
Newer model Interceptor

The Primus only seems to fire at the station and G'quan with some of its guns. It does not launch fighters, despite having a hanger, for whatever reason.

The primus was clearly targeting anything in the area. My guess is the primus doesn't have other weapons, and did not carry fighters.

The Centauri attack the Drazi Sunhawks:

The Drazi open fire first with their missiles, which are slimmer if not shorter then most fighters. The centauri open fire with their main guns, although we do not know what time difference there is between the drazi firing and the centauri firing. All of the missiles are destroyed at close range with high accuracy. The missiles do not appear to take evasive maneuvers to avoid the centauri shots, we do not know if they are homing because all of them are destroyed without hitting a centauri ship. As the centauri destroy the missiles, they appear to fire fewer shots then there are missiles, yet destroy all of them. This indicates that either the missiles were destroyed in a chain reaction, or the bolts themselves destroyed the missiles in their explosions.

After this, the Vorchans return fire with propelled spherical bombs, of which vorchans seem to be able to carry at least 5 of each. The Drazi attempt evasive maneuvers, but the bombs are not dumbfired, and home into the drazi ships. It is unknown if the drazi shot down any bombs before this point, as we do not see them doing so. The Vorchans then open fire on the Drazi Sunhawks with their main guns at unknown range, presumably destroying the Drazi Sunhawks, as we later see a group of Vorchans amongst the wreckage of several drazi sunhawks.

The missiles are slow moving, predicable, and take each other out when one is blown up. It's really no different from the Hoth asteroid field.

Destruction of the Black Star:

The nuclear blast is inconsistent with expected behavior in a vacuum, ditto for the linear damage pattern on the black star after the first mine. the mines are shown exploding and the 2-megaton figure are both given only in this one scene, which you have called unreliable. Two figures for the potency of earth mines in the same scene, effectively. The minbari only have bad armor if the audio evidence is used, not if the visual evidence is used.

Both Londo and John Sheridan give a yield of 2 megatons. You are taking images that are the product of little children's imagination over two sources that know what they are talking about.

You are throwing out two credible sources for one highly suspect source simply because you want a certain outcome. You have to provide proof John and Londo don't know what they are talking about even though it is their jobs to know.

By this reasoning a TIE fighter can magically make the equivalent of an X-wing just disappear while causing a fireball. That means X-wing sized hole with every shot. You do not want to start arguing for something, and use VFX mistakes as evidence because it will hurt Babylon 5 more then Star Wars.

Fighter capabilities:

Starfuries, Thunderbolts, and Frazi fighters all have demonstrated the ability to turn 18 degrees while moving in a straight line and continue in the opposite driection without deviating from said line. Vorlon fighters are even more nimble, traveling in arcs around enemy ships with the front of their ships pointed at their target, while younger races can only perform this maneuver while traveling in a straight line.

SW fighters by comparison must turn via arcs, and do not have this capability. Deltawings Nials, and Shadow fighters move in a manner similar to this, and all B5 fighters seem to be capable of moving in a manner similar to this-they only 'ball-turret' when in close combat with other fighters or capital ships.

The straight line part is what will get them killed. Remember, the best fighters in Babylon 5 don't play ball turret, and move like Star Wars fighters...

SW fighters seem to go faster then B5 ones overall-they keep up a high speed even when engaged, while B5 fighters slow down to maneuver when engaged.

As much as I hate this argument: Star Wars craft seem to slow down for the camera.>_<

Starfuries, Thunderbolts, Deltawings, X-wings, and Y-wings seem to have the ability to carry missiles or proton torpedoes. Guidance capabilities are unknown in both categories, as we do not see B5 fighters firing missiles in the normal series (crusade may be another thing) and the proton torpedoes fired at the first death star seem to have had preset maneuvers programed in to perform a right-angle turn at a certain distance. (Luke fired his without having a lock)

Luke is also a force user so standard rules go out the window. While a force user can't do the impossible they can do the extremely improbable.

I only recall Thunderbolt Star fury having missiles.

I want proof of the right angle turn.

SW fighters, or at least most of the rebel ones, have shields, which would be a large advantage over B5 fighters, and they seem to be able to divert shielding to particular segments-as evidenced at Yavin. There does not seem to be any noticeable difference in fighter-borne firepower between the series.

Except Star Wars weapons tunnel into the target and act like buried explosives.

TIEs have off-axis firing but require a lengthy lock-on time to do so.

Vader was just playing around. If he had wanted to kill the rebels he would have shot without the lock

Rate-of fire is comparable with the exception of the thunderbolt and x-wing, which have greater rates-of-fire then other fighters in their universes.

You forgot Slave-I having a very high rate of fire, but that might be more a small shuttle.

Nials have stealth technology, and 'can't be tracked at all' (paraphrase) by earth technology. In addition, they have more guns and more powerful guns then anything seen in B5 or SW on the same scale. They can be voice activated to target and lock onto specific parts of other fighters.

Stealth isn't going to matter since a lot of targeting is done with the Mark-I eyeball in Star Wars for some reason. It's a very odd quirk that is normally a disadvantage.

I've seen Nail firepower rated in the giga-joules range. They are absurdly capable for their setting.

In both series, fighters typically fly in a straight line while approaching their target.

There is no real reason to maneuver if the enemy can't hit you yet, and it is the fastest way to the target.

Overall, assuming equal numbers in a fight, I would expect most forms of B5 fighters to lose to Rebel fighters due to speed and shielding, but to win against Imperial TIEs. Nials, Shadow fighters, and Vorlon fighters I would expect to do much better.

TIE fighters are as effective if not more so then their rebel counterparts as shown in A New Hope.

Vorlons and Shadows:

The vorlons have 3 planet killers, and the shadows have at least two. We see portions of each of their fleets at Corianna, but the volrons have at least thousands of ships-a figure is given when they are spotted in hyperspace. Shadow planet killers can wipe out all life on the surface, and Vorlon planet killers are capable of a wide range of destruction, ranging from wiping out colonies on a planet's surface to turning an entire planet into wreckage. The larger Vorlon ships are capable of shielding themselves, but it is unknown what the limitations on this are. They are capable of stopping a brief shot from a shadow beam, at the least. Shadow fighters can be launched as a large projectile which disperses into fighters at range. Both races are capable of off-axis firing, and shadows are described as 'never missing'.

Neither race seems to have any form of point defense, they seem to rely on their fighters for smaller threats.

Like I said: Things will go best for the Babylon 5 powers if the Vorlons and Shadows lay low until the Empire invades. Really the Empire could start coming up with some pretty scary things if they knew about the planet killers, and the actual fleet sizes for the Vorlons and Shadows.

Missiles and Proton Torpedoes:

B5 and SW both make use of missiles and similar projectiles, guided and unguided. The high end of SW would be Boba Fett's tracking missile which demonstrated the ability to adjust its flight path to avoid obstacles while homing in it's target. The high end for B5 would be the homing mines that were used by the Centauri Vorchans, which demonstrated these capabilities as well, at a somewhat lesser speed but in greater quantities.

No argument there.

The low ends for SW would be the OT proton torpedo which was dumbfired-Luke fired it without his targeting computer, remember? That would indicate that the PT was set to take a right angle turn at a preset time or distance after firing. The targeting computers in this case would just be an aide for the pilots to know when to fire them, which would explain why timing was so important at the trench run.

Proton Torpedos were used to destroy the Death Star-II's reactor. You may want to rethink what the targeting computer normally does. The rebels didn't have a plan in that case, and the tropedos hit a target that was not straight in front of the fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
7:04

Keep in mind that proton torpedos tend to be used on large targets at close range where close is good enough.

The low end for B5 would be the drazi missiles, which are not particularly fast, and do not demonstrate homing or evasive capability in the show.

They could be shot down like the hoth asteroids.

It is possible that there are homing versions of PT, and that Drazi missiles have homing capabilities, but we never see them in the movies or the show to have this property.

You need to look at the destruction of the second death star.

Furbies are nowhere near as advanced as a modern missile, much less one which can recognize and avoid incoming obstacles.

For something to dodge it simply needs to see "it" coming, get out of the way, and then get back on course. We have things that do that already like cars that drive themselves.

Here is an example of what we are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEPTHX

We posses missiles that will perform pre-programmed maneuvers prior to impact to make them harder to track and hit, this does not mean that they will actively avoid incoming fire.

If we can do that now why wouldn't a more advanced race be able to do better?

You seem to be of the opinion that furbies have more advanced technology then modern-day missiles. I corrected you and cited sources. You are still clinging to this.

So there is no way that a more advanced race could not do better then dumb fire missiles?

Scanners and Targeting:

SW can scan for lifeforms, and can lock onto enemy fighters and ship features presumably as small as the exhaust port, but not without difficulty. B5 targeting computers can pick up objects as small as a teddy ear with high quality, and scanners have been demonstrated as being capable of picking up specific features such as fusion reactors, lifeforms, and gunports- A wider range of features then is seen in SW G-Canon. Minbari Nial fighters can be voice activated to target and fire upon specific parts of other fighters, while remaining difficult to track by scanners of other races.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d91D5rb3 ... re=related
You can make out the paint job on the Jedi fighter.

Star Wars fighters can detect life forms as seen in TESB.

Gun ports being open is just a matter of using visual sensors. The mark one eyeball can do it.

Detecting Fusion reactors is not really that hard since they give off large energy signatures.

You are ignoring "Cat and Mouse" which shows the use of inferred and magnetic sensor in Star Wars to detect cloaked ships..

Artificial Gravity and Inertial Dampeners:

All SW ships seem to have this, some babylon 5 ships have this. Notably, most earthforce and narn ships do not have this, it is unknown if Drazi have it but unlikely.

Since the EF and Narn don't have AG and ID tech it means that Babylon fine ships must be slower then Star Wars ships because Narn and human ships are not notably outperformed.

Firepower Figures:

Firepower figures for both series are only given in the EU, with the exception of nukes in B5. Comparable weapons in both universes seem to inflict similar damage for the most part, the exception being beam weapons and 'flak' weapons.

Firepower Figures:

Firepower figures for both series are only given in the EU, with the exception of nukes in B5. Comparable weapons in both universes seem to inflict similar damage for the most part, the exception being beam weapons and 'flak' weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
The Babylon 5 is armed more heavily then some warships. It's anti-capital ship weapons are stated to be 200 megawatt pulse cannons.
The 200 megawatt pulse cannons fire about 4 to 8 pulses per second depending on the model.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png
The 4 barreled model seems to fire about 8 to 12 pulses a second.
Since i was able to count 8 pulses a second for certain I will assume it fires 8 pulses a second.

200 megawatts divided by 8 pulses per second = 25 mega-joules per pulse


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid2.png
This is either a pulse cannon, a mine launcher, or a plasma cannon. We will assume for the sake of argument it is a pulse cannon.
This model fires 4 to 5 pulses per second.
200 megawatts divided by 4 pulses per second = 50 mega-joules per pulse.


It takes 2 to 3 pulses to breach the hull of a top of the line warship, and that means you need only 50 to 150 mega-joules to breach the heavily armored hull of a top of the line younger races warships.
_____
AT-AT anti-personel firepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6uQ1ROQm0k
The AT-AT guns were making nice little holes in the ground
For simplicities sake let's assume those holes are about one cubic foot.
1 cubic foot of ice weighs about 57 pounds = 25 854.765 09 gram
Ice will flash vaporize when 3000 joules are added.
25854.76509*3000= 77,564,295.3 joules
So it is not unreasonable for AT-AT gun to be around the same range as the powerful capital ship weapons mounted on Babylon 5 per-pulse if not above.

The ROTS novelization(G-canon) states that turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town are being used. To vaporize a small town you will likely need 10 to 1,000 kilotons, and certainly not more then 5,000 kilotons. This is in line with the asteroids seen in TESB.

Fleet Sizes:

Upwards of 25 Vorchans are seen on screen at the same time returning after the bombing of centauri prime. This is the defense force for centauri prime, and does not take into account the ships defending their holdings elsewhere, or the drone vorchans.

At the bombardment, I counted at least 8 G'Quans which would put the total number of Narn G'Quans post-occupation at around 24+, considering that garibaldi said that about a third of their forces had gone missing. Narn are shown to be capable of building large space stations pre-occupation, and had a much larger fleet.

What bombardment are you talking about? The only bombardment I recall is the one of the Narn home world, and that was only possible because the shadows took out a large portion of the Narn fleet.

The same estimation works for the drazi as well, which would give them dozens of sun hawks at least, and a smaller amount of Sky Serpants. The drazi have several orbital facilities present in shots of their homeworld. This figure is after we have seen numerous Sunhawks destroyed in the battle with the Centauri, so it is likely they had many more before this war.

By your method it looks like we could be looking at even ship they could spare given the context.

Brakiri capabilities are hard to get a handle on, but we see about half a dozen in a single convoy when it is attacked by Centauri drone Vorchans. Brakiri ships are pretty weak though, despite their large size and artificial gravity-I would not expect them to be much help if the Empire invaded B5 space.

The only way for the younger races to win a battle is through numbers, and their best bet of getting a kill is ramming the bridge tower with something like an omega destroyer.

Minbari fielded dozens of sharlins at the battle of the line, and built the whitestars fleet and helped build the Victory and Excalibur.

The Minbari planed planetary bombardment, and to wipe out all human space travel capability correct? That would be an example of an abnormally large fleet. That could have been every ship the Minbari had to spare.

Humans fielded dozens of Omegas at mars at the end of the Human civil war.

I don't see how this tells us how many ships the EA has?

The examples given for the Human, Narn, Centauri, and Drazi fleets is after costly wars with the shadows, as well as inner conflicts.

SW universe has trouble paying for the clone wars era forces, and the largest fleet we see in the OT is at Endor. We don't know what sorts of assets they have elsewhere in G-canon.

The rebels have a somewhat smaller fleet, it is likely that their resources are much smaller then the empires.

Well the Empire gets the resources it thinks it needs, or it won't invade. If the empire only has it's canon resource there will be no invasion.

The Empire was somehow able to gather the fleet at Endor without the rebels finding out. That may indicate that it was a small part of the Imperial fleet.

Shields:

TIEs, all Imperial and rebel ground vehicles, and possibly landspeeders do not have shields, where all fleetships, transports, and rebel fighters do. shields can be redirected to protect certain parts of a ship. SW seems to have several types of shield, some of which are permeable to solid objects and some of which are not. Shields can experience bleedthrough damage, causing explosions and fires on a ship even when shields are up.

Okay

Large shield generators are usually internal, but Star Destroyers have at least one shield generator placed on top of the command tower. Where they are vulnerable to bleedthrough damage from fighter-scaled weaponry.

Proof the shields were up in those cases?

SSDs at least, have multiple shield generators, but cannot extend shields from one generator to cover an unshielded area made vulnerable by the destruction of another.

Agreed

What do you agree with here? Disagree with? I am hoping to get this discussion back on topic with a minimum of splitting hairs over how effective the millennium falcon is or what color exhaust starfuries have. How do you think that the invasion of the B5 galaxy would go if a wormhole opened up? Would an invasion happen at all? Who would invade who?

It comes down to the Vorlons and the Shadows because the Empire will have reliable Intel on everyone else.

[Lucky]

I'm going to attempt condensing my replies in order to cut down on text walls:

Thank you, but sorry about turning it into a wall o text again.

Flak:

You have demonstrated enough sources to prove that SW uses flack, although I cannot see the benefit to this form of weapon.

Since it is called flak, and causes ships to shake, I would assume it serves a similar purpose as real world flak. it certainly makes flying more difficult, and even a fraction of the energy hitting is better then a complete miss.

The Centauri attack B5 and the G'Quan:

The Centauri open fire on B5 and the G'Quan simultaneously. We know that the G'quan is firing its engines and that B5 is using its interceptors. We do NOT see the Centauri miss B5, we only see them miss the G'Quan, which was moving. Either the G'Quan outran the shots or they were never on target to begin with, but the distance at which the shots were fired does not leave out the possibility for maneuverability as a countermeasure for incoming fire. At least one of the shots fired at Zeta squadron found their target, despite the range.

We see Babylon 5 ignore fire from the Primus . Babylon 5 would not ignore shots coming towards it unless they were not going to hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
At about 4:00 you will see the interceptor system ignore a number of bolts fired by the primus, and the bolts are high. Even when we see the primus take off one of Babylon 5's prongs it stilled missed with many of it's bolts.

The Narn cruiser was in no condition to engage in evasive maneuvers. They were barely able to move in a straight line, and you have yet to provide evidence that the Narn ship dodged. The only logical target was the Narn ship.

B5 has three kinds of interceptor, but we only see the rapid-fire ones hit the Primus. The Primus is twisting at the time of impact, it would appear that this was an attempt at an evasive maneuver, which was only partially successful. There is no noticeable difference in damage dealt by the starfuries and the interceptors to the Primus.

In season 2 episode 10 "GROPOS" we are told they added pulse cannons, mine launchers, and new interceptors.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png
This is a pulse cannon. These are used for attacking capital ship and fighters. They are rated at 200 megawatts. They seem to have no trouble chewing through capital ship hulls in 2 to 3 pulses.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid2.png
This is a pulse cannon or mine launcher. These are for attacking capital ships.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid1.png
Interceptor

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid4.png
Newer model Interceptor

The Primus only seems to fire at the station and G'quan with some of its guns. It does not launch fighters, despite having a hanger, for whatever reason.

The primus was clearly targeting anything in the area. My guess is the primus doesn't have other weapons, and did not carry fighters.

The Centauri attack the Drazi Sunhawks:

The Drazi open fire first with their missiles, which are slimmer if not shorter then most fighters. The centauri open fire with their main guns, although we do not know what time difference there is between the drazi firing and the centauri firing. All of the missiles are destroyed at close range with high accuracy. The missiles do not appear to take evasive maneuvers to avoid the centauri shots, we do not know if they are homing because all of them are destroyed without hitting a centauri ship. As the centauri destroy the missiles, they appear to fire fewer shots then there are missiles, yet destroy all of them. This indicates that either the missiles were destroyed in a chain reaction, or the bolts themselves destroyed the missiles in their explosions.

After this, the Vorchans return fire with propelled spherical bombs, of which vorchans seem to be able to carry at least 5 of each. The Drazi attempt evasive maneuvers, but the bombs are not dumbfired, and home into the drazi ships. It is unknown if the drazi shot down any bombs before this point, as we do not see them doing so. The Vorchans then open fire on the Drazi Sunhawks with their main guns at unknown range, presumably destroying the Drazi Sunhawks, as we later see a group of Vorchans amongst the wreckage of several drazi sunhawks.

The missiles are slow moving, predicable, and take each other out when one is blown up. It's really no different from the Hoth asteroid field.

Destruction of the Black Star:

The nuclear blast is inconsistent with expected behavior in a vacuum, ditto for the linear damage pattern on the black star after the first mine. the mines are shown exploding and the 2-megaton figure are both given only in this one scene, which you have called unreliable. Two figures for the potency of earth mines in the same scene, effectively. The minbari only have bad armor if the audio evidence is used, not if the visual evidence is used.

Both Londo and John Sheridan give a yield of 2 megatons. You are taking images that are the product of little children's imagination over two sources that know what they are talking about.

You are throwing out two credible sources for one highly suspect source simply because you want a certain outcome. You have to provide proof John and Londo don't know what they are talking about even though it is their jobs to know.

By this reasoning a TIE fighter can magically make the equivalent of an X-wing just disappear while causing a fireball. That means X-wing sized hole with every shot. You do not want to start arguing for something, and use VFX mistakes as evidence because it will hurt Babylon 5 more then Star Wars.

Fighter capabilities:

Starfuries, Thunderbolts, and Frazi fighters all have demonstrated the ability to turn 18 degrees while moving in a straight line and continue in the opposite driection without deviating from said line. Vorlon fighters are even more nimble, traveling in arcs around enemy ships with the front of their ships pointed at their target, while younger races can only perform this maneuver while traveling in a straight line.

SW fighters by comparison must turn via arcs, and do not have this capability. Deltawings Nials, and Shadow fighters move in a manner similar to this, and all B5 fighters seem to be capable of moving in a manner similar to this-they only 'ball-turret' when in close combat with other fighters or capital ships.

The straight line part is what will get them killed. Remember, the best fighters in Babylon 5 don't play ball turret, and move like Star Wars fighters...

SW fighters seem to go faster then B5 ones overall-they keep up a high speed even when engaged, while B5 fighters slow down to maneuver when engaged.

As much as I hate this argument: Star Wars craft seem to slow down for the camera.>_<

Starfuries, Thunderbolts, Deltawings, X-wings, and Y-wings seem to have the ability to carry missiles or proton torpedoes. Guidance capabilities are unknown in both categories, as we do not see B5 fighters firing missiles in the normal series (crusade may be another thing) and the proton torpedoes fired at the first death star seem to have had preset maneuvers programed in to perform a right-angle turn at a certain distance. (Luke fired his without having a lock)

Luke is also a force user so standard rules go out the window. While a force user can't do the impossible they can do the extremely improbable.

I only recall Thunderbolt Star fury having missiles.

I want proof of the right angle turn.

SW fighters, or at least most of the rebel ones, have shields, which would be a large advantage over B5 fighters, and they seem to be able to divert shielding to particular segments-as evidenced at Yavin. There does not seem to be any noticeable difference in fighter-borne firepower between the series.

Except Star Wars weapons tunnel into the target and act like buried explosives.

TIEs have off-axis firing but require a lengthy lock-on time to do so.

Vader was just playing around. If he had wanted to kill the rebels he would have shot without the lock

Rate-of fire is comparable with the exception of the thunderbolt and x-wing, which have greater rates-of-fire then other fighters in their universes.

You forgot Slave-I having a very high rate of fire, but that might be more a small shuttle.

Nials have stealth technology, and 'can't be tracked at all' (paraphrase) by earth technology. In addition, they have more guns and more powerful guns then anything seen in B5 or SW on the same scale. They can be voice activated to target and lock onto specific parts of other fighters.

Stealth isn't going to matter since a lot of targeting is done with the Mark-I eyeball in Star Wars for some reason. It's a very odd quirk that is normally a disadvantage.

I've seen Nail firepower rated in the giga-joules range. They are absurdly capable for their setting.

In both series, fighters typically fly in a straight line while approaching their target.

There is no real reason to maneuver if the enemy can't hit you yet, and it is the fastest way to the target.

Overall, assuming equal numbers in a fight, I would expect most forms of B5 fighters to lose to Rebel fighters due to speed and shielding, but to win against Imperial TIEs. Nials, Shadow fighters, and Vorlon fighters I would expect to do much better.

TIE fighters are as effective if not more so then their rebel counterparts as shown in A New Hope.

Vorlons and Shadows:

The vorlons have 3 planet killers, and the shadows have at least two. We see portions of each of their fleets at Corianna, but the volrons have at least thousands of ships-a figure is given when they are spotted in hyperspace. Shadow planet killers can wipe out all life on the surface, and Vorlon planet killers are capable of a wide range of destruction, ranging from wiping out colonies on a planet's surface to turning an entire planet into wreckage. The larger Vorlon ships are capable of shielding themselves, but it is unknown what the limitations on this are. They are capable of stopping a brief shot from a shadow beam, at the least. Shadow fighters can be launched as a large projectile which disperses into fighters at range. Both races are capable of off-axis firing, and shadows are described as 'never missing'.

Neither race seems to have any form of point defense, they seem to rely on their fighters for smaller threats.

Like I said: Things will go best for the Babylon 5 powers if the Vorlons and Shadows lay low until the Empire invades. Really the Empire could start coming up with some pretty scary things if they knew about the planet killers, and the actual fleet sizes for the Vorlons and Shadows.

Missiles and Proton Torpedoes:

B5 and SW both make use of missiles and similar projectiles, guided and unguided. The high end of SW would be Boba Fett's tracking missile which demonstrated the ability to adjust its flight path to avoid obstacles while homing in it's target. The high end for B5 would be the homing mines that were used by the Centauri Vorchans, which demonstrated these capabilities as well, at a somewhat lesser speed but in greater quantities.

No argument there.

The low ends for SW would be the OT proton torpedo which was dumbfired-Luke fired it without his targeting computer, remember? That would indicate that the PT was set to take a right angle turn at a preset time or distance after firing. The targeting computers in this case would just be an aide for the pilots to know when to fire them, which would explain why timing was so important at the trench run.

Proton Torpedos were used to destroy the Death Star-II's reactor. You may want to rethink what the targeting computer normally does. The rebels didn't have a plan in that case, and the tropedos hit a target that was not straight in front of the fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
7:04

Keep in mind that proton torpedos tend to be used on large targets at close range where close is good enough.

The low end for B5 would be the drazi missiles, which are not particularly fast, and do not demonstrate homing or evasive capability in the show.

They could be shot down like the hoth asteroids.

It is possible that there are homing versions of PT, and that Drazi missiles have homing capabilities, but we never see them in the movies or the show to have this property.

You need to look at the destruction of the second death star.

Furbies are nowhere near as advanced as a modern missile, much less one which can recognize and avoid incoming obstacles.

For something to dodge it simply needs to see "it" coming, get out of the way, and then get back on course. We have things that do that already like cars that drive themselves.

Here is an example of what we are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEPTHX

We posses missiles that will perform pre-programmed maneuvers prior to impact to make them harder to track and hit, this does not mean that they will actively avoid incoming fire.

If we can do that now why wouldn't a more advanced race be able to do better?

You seem to be of the opinion that furbies have more advanced technology then modern-day missiles. I corrected you and cited sources. You are still clinging to this.

So there is no way that a more advanced race could not do better then dumb fire missiles?

Scanners and Targeting:

SW can scan for lifeforms, and can lock onto enemy fighters and ship features presumably as small as the exhaust port, but not without difficulty. B5 targeting computers can pick up objects as small as a teddy ear with high quality, and scanners have been demonstrated as being capable of picking up specific features such as fusion reactors, lifeforms, and gunports- A wider range of features then is seen in SW G-Canon. Minbari Nial fighters can be voice activated to target and fire upon specific parts of other fighters, while remaining difficult to track by scanners of other races.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d91D5rb3 ... re=related
You can make out the paint job on the Jedi fighter.

Star Wars fighters can detect life forms as seen in TESB.

Gun ports being open is just a matter of using visual sensors. The mark one eyeball can do it.

Detecting Fusion reactors is not really that hard since they give off large energy signatures.

You are ignoring "Cat and Mouse" which shows the use of inferred and magnetic sensor in Star Wars to detect cloaked ships..

Artificial Gravity and Inertial Dampeners:

All SW ships seem to have this, some babylon 5 ships have this. Notably, most earthforce and narn ships do not have this, it is unknown if Drazi have it but unlikely.

Since the EF and Narn don't have AG and ID tech it means that Babylon fine ships must be slower then Star Wars ships because Narn and human ships are not notably outperformed.

Firepower Figures:

Firepower figures for both series are only given in the EU, with the exception of nukes in B5. Comparable weapons in both universes seem to inflict similar damage for the most part, the exception being beam weapons and 'flak' weapons.

Firepower Figures:

Firepower figures for both series are only given in the EU, with the exception of nukes in B5. Comparable weapons in both universes seem to inflict similar damage for the most part, the exception being beam weapons and 'flak' weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
The Babylon 5 is armed more heavily then some warships. It's anti-capital ship weapons are stated to be 200 megawatt pulse cannons.
The 200 megawatt pulse cannons fire about 4 to 8 pulses per second depending on the model.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png
The 4 barreled model seems to fire about 8 to 12 pulses a second.
Since i was able to count 8 pulses a second for certain I will assume it fires 8 pulses a second.

200 megawatts divided by 8 pulses per second = 25 mega-joules per pulse


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid2.png
This is either a pulse cannon, a mine launcher, or a plasma cannon. We will assume for the sake of argument it is a pulse cannon.
This model fires 4 to 5 pulses per second.
200 megawatts divided by 4 pulses per second = 50 mega-joules per pulse.


It takes 2 to 3 pulses to breach the hull of a top of the line warship, and that means you need only 50 to 150 mega-joules to breach the heavily armored hull of a top of the line younger races warships.
_____
AT-AT anti-personel firepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6uQ1ROQm0k
The AT-AT guns were making nice little holes in the ground
For simplicities sake let's assume those holes are about one cubic foot.
1 cubic foot of ice weighs about 57 pounds = 25 854.765 09 gram
Ice will flash vaporize when 3000 joules are added.
25854.76509*3000= 77,564,295.3 joules
So it is not unreasonable for AT-AT gun to be around the same range as the powerful capital ship weapons mounted on Babylon 5 per-pulse if not above.

The ROTS novelization(G-canon) states that turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town are being used. To vaporize a small town you will likely need 10 to 1,000 kilotons, and certainly not more then 5,000 kilotons. This is in line with the asteroids seen in TESB.

Fleet Sizes:

Upwards of 25 Vorchans are seen on screen at the same time returning after the bombing of centauri prime. This is the defense force for centauri prime, and does not take into account the ships defending their holdings elsewhere, or the drone vorchans.

At the bombardment, I counted at least 8 G'Quans which would put the total number of Narn G'Quans post-occupation at around 24+, considering that garibaldi said that about a third of their forces had gone missing. Narn are shown to be capable of building large space stations pre-occupation, and had a much larger fleet.

What bombardment are you talking about? The only bombardment I recall is the one of the Narn home world, and that was only possible because the shadows took out a large portion of the Narn fleet.

The same estimation works for the drazi as well, which would give them dozens of sun hawks at least, and a smaller amount of Sky Serpants. The drazi have several orbital facilities present in shots of their homeworld. This figure is after we have seen numerous Sunhawks destroyed in the battle with the Centauri, so it is likely they had many more before this war.

By your method it looks like we could be looking at even ship they could spare given the context.

Brakiri capabilities are hard to get a handle on, but we see about half a dozen in a single convoy when it is attacked by Centauri drone Vorchans. Brakiri ships are pretty weak though, despite their large size and artificial gravity-I would not expect them to be much help if the Empire invaded B5 space.

The only way for the younger races to win a battle is through numbers, and their best bet of getting a kill is ramming the bridge tower with something like an omega destroyer.

Minbari fielded dozens of sharlins at the battle of the line, and built the whitestars fleet and helped build the Victory and Excalibur.

The Minbari planed planetary bombardment, and to wipe out all human space travel capability correct? That would be an example of an abnormally large fleet. That could have been every ship the Minbari had to spare.

Humans fielded dozens of Omegas at mars at the end of the Human civil war.

I don't see how this tells us how many ships the EA has?

The examples given for the Human, Narn, Centauri, and Drazi fleets is after costly wars with the shadows, as well as inner conflicts.

SW universe has trouble paying for the clone wars era forces, and the largest fleet we see in the OT is at Endor. We don't know what sorts of assets they have elsewhere in G-canon.

The rebels have a somewhat smaller fleet, it is likely that their resources are much smaller then the empires.

Well the Empire gets the resources it thinks it needs, or it won't invade. If the empire only has it's canon resource there will be no invasion.

The Empire was somehow able to gather the fleet at Endor without the rebels finding out. That may indicate that it was a small part of the Imperial fleet.

Shields:

TIEs, all Imperial and rebel ground vehicles, and possibly landspeeders do not have shields, where all fleetships, transports, and rebel fighters do. shields can be redirected to protect certain parts of a ship. SW seems to have several types of shield, some of which are permeable to solid objects and some of which are not. Shields can experience bleedthrough damage, causing explosions and fires on a ship even when shields are up.

Okay

Large shield generators are usually internal, but Star Destroyers have at least one shield generator placed on top of the command tower. Where they are vulnerable to bleedthrough damage from fighter-scaled weaponry.

Proof the shields were up in those cases?

SSDs at least, have multiple shield generators, but cannot extend shields from one generator to cover an unshielded area made vulnerable by the destruction of another.

Agreed

What do you agree with here? Disagree with? I am hoping to get this discussion back on topic with a minimum of splitting hairs over how effective the millennium falcon is or what color exhaust starfuries have. How do you think that the invasion of the B5 galaxy would go if a wormhole opened up? Would an invasion happen at all? Who would invade who?

It comes down to the Vorlons and the Shadows because the Empire will have reliable Intel on everyone else.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The problem is a Venator can vaporize a small town. That's going to mean high kiloton to megaton level firepower in each shot, and that is more then enough to kill any younger race's ship, and all Star Wars ships are designed to take this kind of firepower.

B5 ships are also slower.

Each beam weapon on a Sharlin puts out 63.3 kilotons per second and has considerably greater range and accuracy than anything we have see from a Venator that can even miss at virtually point blank.

Given the manouverability and speed of whitestars and other smaller ships in B5 even fighters along with the way they manouver compared to SW fighters and ships (B5 ships do not typically fly like aircraft in a dog fight ALL the time) the ypounger races do have a shot.

[User1555]

I would also point out that Omegas have been seen to go extremely fast in the movie 'A Call to Arms' when they are fleeing from the blast from the exploding shadow planet killer. Not that I would want to be on one of those things considering they don't seem to have any inertial dampeners, but it does indicate that while the maneuverability of Omegas is rather low, they can move pretty fast when they want to. On the other hand, they seem to move rather slowly when engaging in ramming maneuvers, so this may be an inconsistency.

On the other hand, Whitestars, Sunhawks, Vree saucers, and vorchans have all been seen to go pretty fast compared to ships like Mon cals and Star Destroyers.