Battle of Endor Force Subs

[Admiral Breetai]

I'm curious as to how the following fights would take place if they backed up the Rebel fleet.

right then the following fleets back up the Rebellion

1, The EAS Excalibur and Victory backed up by 15 whitestars and 20 EAS Warlocks

2, 50 Primus class battle curisers (ten with rail guns) and 70 Vorchans

3, The Minbari fleet from the battle of the line fully blood lusted against the Empire

4, The Vorlon fleet from the battle of coriana six backed up by the other first ones (how ever for this scenario they have no Rebel help what so ever and the Empire gets four times the number of ships present)

how do these scenario's go? can the empire win each time? or will they loose

[User1555]

Considering the rebel fleet already won the battle of Endor, I don't think being backed by any of those fleets could hurt.

If it was just the B5 fleets vs the imperial fleet at Endor, I'd still give it to B5 in the last four engagements. The Excalibur presents a bit of an obvious target for the death star in the first battle though, and if that gets knocked out, the B5 fleet would lose a lot of its firepower right off the bat. Despite the formidable firepower and armor of the whitestars and omega classes, it would be tough fight.

If a Centauri fleet attacked, I would call it even. The centauri ships have pretty high firepower for one of the younger races, and with a fleet that large I could see them rivaling or even surpassing the Imperials in numbers-their lack of decent anti-fighter ship weapons could hurt them though, as with the relative lack of armor.

Third scenario would probably result in some sort of horrific bloodbath for the Imperials. The Minbari and Vorlons had very large fleets at those battles, and their ships don't have the same weaknesses as those of the Centauri, with the exception of sharlin armor, which seems to be pretty weak. Minbari and Vorlons have firepower, range, and accuracy far exceeding that demonstrated by Star Destroyers. The minbari also have stealth technology, and potentially the most powerful fighters in the entire B5 series outside of thirdspace, while the Vorlons have adaptive armor and some form of shielding. An aditional advantage the vorlons would have would be the planet killer-the planet killer could potentially destroy the Super Star destroyer or perhaps even damage the death star/destroy the shield generator from orbit if it gets a shot off.

[Admiral Breetai]

the big issue I have with putting b-5 races alone is I think the fighters are too big and too slow for the run down the exhaust shaft....

The vorlon planet killer could fire and wipe out the DS then again the DS could do the exact same thing to the VPK..no clue if the other first ones could damage the DSII the way they did the VPK

the centuari have numeric superiority with the Imperial fleet- but I'm not liking the odds of a Primus walking away from a fight with an ISD though I suppose if a couple Vorchans backed it up it'd be good for a win...

a couple Vorchans vs an ISD might be a win for the ISD with some considerable damage

ISD fire power should absolutely wreck minbari sh*t though if they could even manage to get a lock on it..I know next to nothing about SW sensor tech so if preath or jedi matt or any one with a clue wants to clarify they can

nials would be hell on wings for TIE fighters though don't know if they would fit down the exhaust port but they likely could

[Lucky]

the big issue I have with putting b-5 races alone is I think the fighters are too big and too slow for the run down the exhaust shaft....

Last time I checked SatWars fighters were limited by similar problems as B5 fighters in that the pilots only had human reaction times.

I don't recall B5 fighters being larger then T.I.E. fighters.

ISD fire power should absolutely wreck minbari sh*t though if they could even manage to get a lock on it..I know next to nothing about SW sensor tech so if preath or jedi matt or any one with a clue wants to clarify they can

The funny thing is Star Wars targeting seems to be done with the mark one eye-ball often anyway, and they use spray and pray as standard making the Minbari ECM useless. ^_^

nials would be hell on wings for TIE fighters though don't know if they would fit down the exhaust port but they likely could

It's rather odd, but just about every fighter in sci-fi I can think of would be a credible threat to the others save Star Trek fighters which take a couple of anti-capital ship weapon to the face.

[Admiral Breetai]

Last time I checked SatWars fighters were limited by similar problems as B5 fighters in that the pilots only had human reaction times.

depends Centuari ships have an AI program that takes over after a pilot blacks out..and their pilots can handle better G's then humans can so they usually have no problem going the extra mile..if it means scoring a kill shot even in their sleep

Starfuries on the other hand

I don't recall B5 fighters being larger then T.I.E. fighters.

they look and seem to move slower then TIE's but they do have that ability to swing around three sixty and shoot ties don't have

[

The funny thing is Star Wars targeting seems to be done with the mark one eye-ball often anyway, and they use spray and pray as standard making the Minbari ECM useless. ^_^

JMS supposedly said in one interview that the EA would of won or come to a stalemate with the Minbari if they could of just aimed..their armor was literally that crappy

if true then I'm betting more then a few shots from an ISD and a Sharlins floating along barely alive

It's rather odd, but just about every fighter in sci-fi I can think of would be a credible threat to the others save Star Trek fighters which take a couple of anti-capital ship weapon to the face.

Trek fighters should also be called heavy bombers those peregrins looked big..bigger then fighters should be

the Delta flyer was just all sorts of crazy though

[Lucky]

depends Centuari ships have an AI program that takes over after a pilot blacks out..and their pilots can handle better G's then humans can so they usually have no problem going the extra mile..if it means scoring a kill shot even in their sleep

Starfuries on the other hand

Strangely in Babylon 5 all the races have fighters that are not that far apart in performance be they Minbari, Centuari, Human, Vorlon, or Shadow.

Heck, it can be argued the best fighter in the series is the Thunderbolt Star Furry.

they look and seem to move slower then TIE's but they do have that ability to swing around three sixty and shoot ties don't have

Given TIEs are shown to move like world war two fighters in combat I'm not sure there is much of a speed difference.

JMS supposedly said in one interview that the EA would of won or come to a stalemate with the Minbari if they could of just aimed..their armor was literally that crappy

if true then I'm betting more then a few shots from an ISD and a Sharlins floating along barely alive

2 or 3 2 megaton bombs took out 3 or 4 Sharlins in canon, and I think there was a few instences where the EA rammed the Sharlins and came out the other end okay. They are glass cannons in a literal sense as I recall.

Trek fighters should also be called heavy bombers those peregrins looked big..bigger then fighters should be

the Delta flyer was just all sorts of crazy though

Federation fighters are fighter/bombers kind of like most modern fighters. They carry something like 2 photon torpedos, and then only have phasers which should be near useless. You need a lot of fighters, or a bigger ship backing them up.

A delta Flyer is just a big over powered shuttle. If Star Fleet didn't start making a shuttle like that standard for every vessle that carries shuttles we have a major plot hole.

You may want to read the comments on this page for just how silly the Delta Flyer is.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/weblog/2007/08/d ... ation.html

[User1555]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it ever said that the bombs blew up any sharlins besides the black star? I have heard mention of 'support craft' but that could mean anything-from a sharlin to fighters.

As to the fighter question, starfuries are unquestionably one of the better fighters of the younger races, better than the deltawings, narn, and centauri fighters, although the drazi heavy fighters and minbari fighters probably have an edge in firepower. Centauri fighters can make some very tight turns though, and are at least as maneuverable as a TIE fighter, with a smaller profile. The Centauri ships might be less durable then the Star Destroyers, but they have a distinct edge in long range firepower, with long range guns, mass drivers, and homing bombs, combined with a numerical advantage and somewhat reliable countermeasures, I could imagine the Imperial fleet losing the greater part of their fleet before they are even able to return fire.

vs the minbari I just can't see the Imperial forces standing a chance. What can they possibly do to counter minbari fighters, let alone the sharlins? While the sharlins don't appear to have any way of intercepting incoming missiles or shots, they have long range weapons that put what the rest of the Younger races can field to shame.

The first senario is the trickiest, because the fleet has too much of its firepower invested in the two flagships, which would be obvious targets for the death star. Unlike with the other two fleets, they'd probably have to rely on some form of commando raid on the shield generator like the rebels did, and to take out the death star before it can take out the Excalibur or victory.

I'm not worried about the fighters in any of these scenarios having any trouble penetrating to the death star's reactor, because all of the b5 fighters are smaller then the millennium falcon, which made the trip just fine.

[Lucky]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it ever said that the bombs blew up any sharlins besides the black star? I have heard mention of 'support craft' but that could mean anything-from a sharlin to fighters.

I think it is "Points of Departure" where it is stated that the three 2 megaton nuke took out the Black Star and three other Minbari heavy cruisers. The only Minbari wars ships we see are White stars and sharlin.

[Mike DiCenso]

It is "Points of Departure" where it is stated that a third mine took out three more Minbari ships, though this is not shown or mentioned in "In the Begining", but the destruction of the Black Star definitely is and it is in that movie that the 2 megaton yields for the mines are given as well.

So unless you want to pull in the Fiver apologist arguements for what happened with Black Star, the Minbari ships will have much harder time. That or you have to invoke the TCW, since that shows very low-range SW firepower from major capital ships.
-Mike

[User1555]

I never said that the Black Star was not destroyed, I only questioned if the dialogue mentioned what the class of ships destroyed were-sharlin, fighter, flyer, or something else.
The dialogue does mention that the destroyed ships were heavy cruisers though, so it is entirely possible that they were sharlins.

I haven't seen TCW, but what I have seen seems to indicate that it is highly stylized, and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the movies override lower levels of canon where the two contradict? At any rate, this discussion has been mainly been focusing on the television show and the star wars movies, because otherwise we'd have to deal with BS like shadow ships that can cut planets in half and SW firepower ridiculously higher then implied in the movies.

As for the destruction of the Star, the visuals and dialogue contradict each other-as stated earlier, nukes in space do not produce shockwaves in space, but the bombs produced obvious shockwaves, and cut the star nearly in two along a plane. Unless JMS has clarified one way or another, it's up to the watcher to make their own conclusions. Aside from where nukes are involved in B5, neither the B5 series, or the SW movies talk much about firepower figures, so we have to go off of the visuals in many cases, and going by the visuals, there is no reason to think that, (as an example) a TIE fighter would have an advantage over a starfury in firepower, armor, or maneuverability.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Starfuries are have actually much better showings in regards to manouverability than most franchises as they fly about in space like it is space rather than like aircraft in a atmosphere. We even in some cases see then pivot 180 degrees to fire the main forward weapon at a chasiing ship while their velocity in the original direction remains unchanged a perfectly reasonable thing to do for a ship in space but one we never see in most franchises.

They also do a simular manouvers for strafing runs against larger ships that is another thing we rarely see in other franchises, it is one of the things i really enjoyed about B5 combat in space.

[User1555]

Exactly. B5 fighters, esp starfuries, are certainly better then what is demonstrated in SW. Excepting a few outliers, B5 capital ships also displays consistently more firepower, if not durability, then SW ships.

[Admiral Breetai]

how would the Empire handle the force of first ones that backed up the proto ISA fleet that took on the vorlons and shadows?

[User1555]

If we are talking about Endor, probably not very well. The first ones pretty much ended the battle as soon as they joined, taking out the Vorlon dreadnought in seconds, and none of their ships were taken out. I would imagine that something like the executor would go down in a similarly short period, if not in the first shot.

[Admiral Breetai]

the only Vorlon dreadnaught that took any damage was one rammed by a starfury and then got jumped by a pair of sun hawks backed up by a vree saucer iirc

the huge thing the First ones took out was the actual planet killer.

I guess the question is..can they do the same to the DS and before the imperial fleet tries to mob them