Starfleet Jedi

In an attempt to scale sci-fi's rather than just a good old fashion look at whose got the biggest guns, I've decided to try and best scale all forms of said society's abilities. For example, is someone more advanced than an enemy with far better genetic and weapons capabilities simply because their FTL is much faster? Hard to tell. Here's a working prototype of my system:

Sci-Fi Point System

Ground Weapons
6: temporal
5: nuclear
4: vaporization/heavy artillery
3: energy weapons/super projectiles
2: advanced projectiles
1: primitive projectiles

Ground Defense
6: God-like
5: Advanced Shields
4: Shields
3: Energy resistant armor
2: Projectile Resistant armor
1: medieval armor

Transportation (transporter/shuttles)
6: Intergalactic/Galactic
5: Interstellar
4: Stellar
3: Planetary
2: Advanced Shuttle craft
1: Primitive Shuttle craft

Propulsion Capabilities
5: Universe
4: Intergalactic
3: Galactic
2: Interstellar
1: Stellar

Special Propulsion
+1: Primitive Time Travel
+1: Primitive Dimensional Travel
+2: Reliable Time Travel
+2: Reliable Dimensional Travel
+3: Temporal Mastery
+3: Dimensional Mastery

Typical Weapons
10: Universe Destroying
9: Galactic Destroying
8: Stellar Destroying
7: Planetary Destroying
6: Teratons
5: Gigatons
4: Megatons
3: Kilotons
2: Tons
1: Modern Day

Defenses
8: Planetary Temporal Shields
7: Theater Temporal Shields
6: Ship Temporal Shields
5: Planetary Shields
4: Theater Shields
3: Ship Shields
2: Advanced Technobabble Armor
1: Titanium

Super Weapons
6: Universe/Dimensional Destroyers (Reality Bomb)
5: Galaxy Buster
4: System Buster (Sun Crusher, Trilithium Warhead)
3: Planet Buster (Death Star, 8472 Bioship formation)
2: Planetary Devistator (Genesis)
1: Continent Devistator (Eclipse)

Biological/Chemical Weapons
8: Universe
7: Intergalactic
6: Galactic (Halo Ring Network)
5: Interstellar (Single Halo Ring, Borg multi-kinetic nano-mine)
4: Stellar
3: Planetary (Scimitar)
2: Continent
1: City

Mutant-Cyborg-droid Weapons
8: Indestructible (Wank Hulk)
7: Nuclear Weapon Resistant (Hulk, Superman)
6: Neigh-Indestructible (Uber Metroids, Omega Pirate, Ridly)
5: Heavy Artillery (Super Metroids, Space Pirate Elites, Daleks)
4: Light Artillery (Metroids)
3: Uber Shock Troops (Howlers, Spiderman, Space Pirate Commandos, Replicators)
2: Mid Shock Troopers (Borg Drones, Space Pirates, Spartans)
1: Lower Shock Troopers (Augments, Jaffa, Clones)

Industry Sophistication
4: Instant creation (push button, ships come out)
3: Energy/Matter Manipulation (Star Trek Replicators)
2: Nanobots
1: Contemporary Construction

Industry Size
6: Universe/Dimensional
5: Intergalactic
4: Galactic
3: Interstellar
2: Stellar
1: Planetary

Power Sources
13: God-like
12: Temporal/Dimensional (31st UFP)
11: Singularities (Time Lords)
10: Uber SciTech (Ancient ZPMs,)
9: Stars
8: Micro Singularities (Romulan Warbirds)
7: Micro Stars (Forerunners)
6: Super Technobabble Fuel (Asgards, Goa’uld)
5: Antimatter/Matter (UFP, Klingon Empire)
4: Cold Fusion/SciTech Fusion (???)
3: Fusion (UNSC, 21st Century Starfleet, Starwars)
2: Fission (First World Countries)
1: Chemical (Modern Day Earth)

Template:
Ground Weapons:
Ground Defenses:
Transport:
Propulsion:
Special Propulsion:
Typical Weapons:
Defenses:
Super Weapons:
Bio-Chemical Weapons:
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons:
Industrial Sophistication:
Industrial Size:
Power Source:
Total:

Favorite Examples:
22nd UFP
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 2
Transport: 3
Propulsion: 2
Special Propulsion: 0
Typical Weapons: 3
Defenses: 2
Super Weapons: 0
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 2
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 1
Industrial Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 3
Power Source: 5
Total: 26

24th UFP
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 4
Transport: 3
Propulsion: 2
Special Propulsion: 2
Typical Weapons: 4
Defenses: 5
Super Weapons: 4
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 1
Industrial Sophistication: 3
Industrial Size: 3
Power Source: 5
Total: 41

40k’s Imperium of Man
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 4
Transport: 2
Propulsion: 3
Special Propulsion: 2
Typical Weapons: 4
Defenses: 4
Super Weapons: 3
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 3
Industrial Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 4
Power Source: 4
Total: 32

The Asgard
Ground Weapons: 4
Ground Defenses: 3
Transport: 5
Propulsion: 4
Special Propulsion: 1
Typical Weapons: 5
Defenses: 5
Super Weapons: 3
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 3
Industrial Sophistication: 3
Industrial Size: 3
Power Source: 6
Total: 48

The Time Lords
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 4
Transport: 6
Propulsion: 5
Special Propulsion: 4
Typical Weapons: 5
Defenses: 8
Super Weapons: 6
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 4
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 2
Industrial Sophistication: 2
Industrial Size: 1
Power Source: 11
Total: 61

The Galactic Empire
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 3
Transport: 2
Propulsion: 3
Special Propulsion: 0
Typical Weapons: 3
Defenses: 4
Super Weapons: 4
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 2
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 1
Industrial Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 4
Power Source: 3
Total: 33

Point-wise, each sci-fi may be one or two off, due to specific episodes suggesting one thing, but it rarely being seen or something, but in the end it's fairly accurate I think. As you'll notice, 24th Century UFP tends to be in the low 40s, with more advanced. The Time Lords (unsurprisingly) find themselves waaay ahead of the pack in the 60s. Personally, I think most sci-fis are going to end up in the 30s-40s range.

This is not specific to Star Trek versus Star Wars, so I'm moving the thread to the "Other analysis, crossovers, and debates" forum.
-Mike

I hope its okay but i crossposted this on sb for a start since its the sort of thing i like to look at but there arent many people posting on sfj

i was going to put it on asvs as well and get a lot more ideas from people

Sweet but, if I may meaning no disrespect, I'm not sure of the resolution between notches. This is just my opinion of course but, as an example, looking under industry scale for instance you rate both 22nd century UFP and the 24th UFP at 3, intersteller, which suggests similarly scale through the "modern" era UFP should have nearly the same magnitude of industrial advantage as the Empire has against them. 150 member worlds plus 1000+ colonies versus closer to four and a handful of colonial worlds.

Similarly we have the Galactic Empire which while a Galactic economy has fairly conistently shown to hold its member worlds at practical gunpoint with worlds like Alderean and Mon Calamari actively helping and supply the Rebels and likely were not giving the Empire a "tithe" versus the IOM while horribly stagnet, backwards and chaotic in any given century the bulk of its planets are loyal to the God-Emperor.

Again just my thoughts.

Good so far. Here are the Protoss and the (new) 12 Colonies:

Protoss
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defense: 5
Transportation: 5
Propulsion Capabilities: 3
Special Propulsion: 2
Typical Weapons: 4
Defenses: 4
Super Weapons: 3
Biological/Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant-Cyborg-Droid Weapons: 5
Industry Sophistication: 3
Industrial Size: 3
Power Sources: 6
Total: 50

12 Colonies
Ground Weapons: 2
Ground Defense: 2
Transportation: 1
Propulsion Capabilities: 2
Special Propulsion: 0
Typical Weapons: 1
Defenses: 1
Superweapons: 0
Biological/Chemical Weapons: 1
Mutant-Cyborg-Droid Weapons: 1
Industry Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 2
Power Sources: 3
Total: 17

Some constructive criticism (sorry if some of this sounds harsh, but this is really ridiculous):

Mith wrote:In an attempt to scale sci-fi's rather than just a good old fashion look at whose got the biggest guns, I've decided to try and best scale all forms of said society's abilities. For example, is someone more advanced than an enemy with far better genetic and weapons capabilities simply because their FTL is much faster? Hard to tell. Here's a working prototype of my system:

Uh, Mith, your scale is not exactly fair, as I shall explain.

Sci-Fi Point System

Ground Weapons
6: temporal
5: nuclear
4: vaporization/heavy artillery
3: energy weapons/super projectiles
2: advanced projectiles
1: primitive projectiles

See, this is more schematics than actual advancement level. Who says that nuclear is more advanced than vaporization/heavy artillery? Why are "advanced projectiles" low on the list? What about hypersonic railguns? Relativistic railguns? Do you understand how powerful a relativistic railgun that somehow doesn't destroy itself would be?

"super projectiles"? What?

I'm also seeing a rather non-linear and uneven progression; temporal weapons have the potential to be almost infinitely more powerful than the rest.

Ground Defense
6: God-like
5: Advanced Shields
4: Shields
3: Energy resistant armor
2: Projectile Resistant armor
1: medieval armor

Uh, since when are shields stronger than armor? Sometimes, but what about armor MORE powerful than certain shields? Would that still rank lower simply because of its name? You do realize that energy resistant armor is not always better than projectile resistant armor, right?

"Advanced shields"? How advanced? "god like"? Isn't that too high of a leap up?

Transportation (transporter/shuttles)
6: Intergalactic/Galactic
5: Interstellar
4: Stellar
3: Planetary
2: Advanced Shuttle craft
1: Primitive Shuttle craft

Ok, except for weightings.

Propulsion Capabilities
5: Universe
4: Intergalactic
3: Galactic
2: Interstellar
1: Stellar

The difference between this and the other one is...what? Is the other one supposed to be for their widespread transportation and this one for their absolute maximum? For example, would Earth be <1 for transportation and 1 for propulsion?

Special Propulsion
+1: Primitive Time Travel
+1: Primitive Dimensional Travel
+2: Reliable Time Travel
+2: Reliable Dimensional Travel
+3: Temporal Mastery
+3: Dimensional Mastery

Uh, a little pseudoscience. What do you mean by "dimensional travel" and how is it better than time travel?

Also, "temporal mastery" gives too low of a score; a civilization with complete temporal mastery would curbstomp a civilization with only nuclear weapons, but having nuclear weapons is a bigger plus on your scale.

Typical Weapons
10: Universe Destroying
9: Galactic Destroying
8: Stellar Destroying
7: Planetary Destroying
6: Teratons
5: Gigatons
4: Megatons
3: Kilotons
2: Tons
1: Modern Day

Ok, but what about accuracy, rate of fire, reliability, etc.?

Defenses
8: Planetary Temporal Shields
7: Theater Temporal Shields
6: Ship Temporal Shields
5: Planetary Shields
4: Theater Shields
3: Ship Shields
2: Advanced Technobabble Armor
1: Titanium

Since when are ship shields automatically better than armor? Would the sun crusher's armor be only a rank 2 despite being far more powerful than most sci fi shields? What about planetary shields? Would some planetary shields not be vastly more powerful than others?

Super Weapons
6: Universe/Dimensional Destroyers (Reality Bomb)
5: Galaxy Buster
4: System Buster (Sun Crusher, Trilithium Warhead)
3: Planet Buster (Death Star, 8472 Bioship formation)
2: Planetary Devistator (Genesis)
1: Continent Devistator (Eclipse)

Ok.

Biological/Chemical Weapons
8: Universe
7: Intergalactic
6: Galactic (Halo Ring Network)
5: Interstellar (Single Halo Ring, Borg multi-kinetic nano-mine)
4: Stellar
3: Planetary (Scimitar)
2: Continent
1: City

Eh, a little wanked, but ok.

Mutant-Cyborg-droid Weapons
8: Indestructible (Wank Hulk)
7: Nuclear Weapon Resistant (Hulk, Superman)
6: Neigh-Indestructible (Uber Metroids, Omega Pirate, Ridly)
5: Heavy Artillery (Super Metroids, Space Pirate Elites, Daleks)
4: Light Artillery (Metroids)
3: Uber Shock Troops (Howlers, Spiderman, Space Pirate Commandos, Replicators)
2: Mid Shock Troopers (Borg Drones, Space Pirates, Spartans)
1: Lower Shock Troopers (Augments, Jaffa, Clones)

A little wanked, but ok, although your examples are somewhat inaccurate.

Industry Sophistication
4: Instant creation (push button, ships come out)
3: Energy/Matter Manipulation (Star Trek Replicators)
2: Nanobots
1: Contemporary Construction

Ah, more schematics so that you can wank Star Trek. "energy matter manipulation" is better than, say "nanobots" how exactly?

Industry Size
6: Universe/Dimensional
5: Intergalactic
4: Galactic
3: Interstellar
2: Stellar
1: Planetary

Ok, but weightings are severely off.

Power Sources
13: God-like
12: Temporal/Dimensional (31st UFP)
11: Singularities (Time Lords)
10: Uber SciTech (Ancient ZPMs,)
9: Stars
8: Micro Singularities (Romulan Warbirds)
7: Micro Stars (Forerunners)
6: Super Technobabble Fuel (Asgards, Goa’uld)
5: Antimatter/Matter (UFP, Klingon Empire)
4: Cold Fusion/SciTech Fusion (???)
3: Fusion (UNSC, 21st Century Starfleet, Starwars)
2: Fission (First World Countries)
1: Chemical (Modern Day Earth)

"uber sci fi"? "super technoblabble fuel"? "sci fi fusion"?

Template:
Ground Weapons:
Ground Defenses:
Transport:
Propulsion:
Special Propulsion:
Typical Weapons:
Defenses:
Super Weapons:
Bio-Chemical Weapons:
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons:
Industrial Sophistication:
Industrial Size:
Power Source:
Total:

Your weightings are completely off. On your scale having nuclear weapons has more weight than having complete temporal mastery. You also think that having heavy artillery mechs and megaton level weapons would somehow be superior to having a galaxy spanning industrial base.

Favorite Examples:
22nd UFP
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 2
Transport: 3
Propulsion: 2
Special Propulsion: 0
Typical Weapons: 3
Defenses: 2
Super Weapons: 0
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 2
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 1
Industrial Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 3
Power Source: 5
Total: 26

24th UFP
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 4
Transport: 3
Propulsion: 2
Special Propulsion: 2
Typical Weapons: 4
Defenses: 5
Super Weapons: 4
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 1
Industrial Sophistication: 3
Industrial Size: 3
Power Source: 5
Total: 41

More examples of schematics unfairly supporting Star Trek. You gave Star Trek a 3 in ground combat despite having crap ground forces...because they use energy weapons? Does that somehow magically make them more powerful? Do you seriously think that bio weapons that can cover a planet have as much weight as superweapons that can actually destroy planets, or an interstellar industry? Or that having fusion is somehow as important as having galaxy capable propulsion? You do realize that, in order to have feasible interstellar travel you'd need at least fusion level tech, if not M/AM tech, and that to realistically have galactic travel you'd need some technoblabble uber fast FTL like hyperdrive? But apparently, you think that having nuclear fusion is on the same level as traveling across 100,000 light years in a feasible amount of time.

40k’s Imperium of Man
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 4
Transport: 2
Propulsion: 3
Special Propulsion: 2
Typical Weapons: 4
Defenses: 4
Super Weapons: 3
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 3
Industrial Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 4
Power Source: 4
Total: 32

Ah, so schematics makes the IoM look weaker than the UFP by your scale, even though in reality they'd crush the UFP in a war. Why does UFP have a higher transportation ranking? Why do they have a higher power source ranking? Why do they have higher defense rankings when IoM yields are arguably higher than ICS Star Wars statistics?

The industry size, tranportation and propulsion sections alone would practically guarantee an IoM victory, but your scale downplays their importance. Apparently, having nuclear weapons > galactic travel.

The Asgard
Ground Weapons: 4
Ground Defenses: 3
Transport: 5
Propulsion: 4
Special Propulsion: 1
Typical Weapons: 5
Defenses: 5
Super Weapons: 3
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 3
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 3
Industrial Sophistication: 3
Industrial Size: 3
Power Source: 6
Total: 48

The Time Lords
Ground Weapons: 3
Ground Defenses: 4
Transport: 6
Propulsion: 5
Special Propulsion: 4
Typical Weapons: 5
Defenses: 8
Super Weapons: 6
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 4
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 2
Industrial Sophistication: 2
Industrial Size: 1
Power Source: 11
Total: 61

Dunno much about the Asgard.


Eh, the timelords would realistically have an extremely high number. Apparently, you think that their industry size and sophistication is low. Their main trump card, their time travel, is severely downplayed in your scale; you apparently think that replicators > rewriting the laws of physics.

The Galactic Empire

ROFL.

Ground Weapons: 3

Oh, so even though Star Wars has, even by darkstar's low end and ridiculous estimates, >nuclear level firepower, but you only give them a 3?

Ground Defenses: 3

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droideka

Transport: 2

Dude, are you serious? Travel in Star Wars is so advanced that average civilians can cross large portions of the galaxy in under a day.

Propulsion: 3

More of your biased weighting. This figure alone would realistically give the Empire an uber high score, but you think that having nuclear weapons is more advanced than casual galactic travel? Are you serious?

Special Propulsion: 0

Ah, fair enough.

Typical Weapons: 3

ROFL what? Of course, you're disregarding Star War's gigaton level and teraton level weapons, or the Death Star. You're also disregarding the fact that their reactors are powerful enough to produce teratons per second.

Defenses: 4

Ever heard of planetary shields?

Super Weapons: 4

But apparently, planet busting < nukes, even though nukes are not even close to planet busting.

Bio-Chemical Weapons: 2

Apparently, you think that bio chemical weapons are as important as a galaxy size industry. You also disregard the fact that Star Wars actually has shown planetary scale biological weapons.

Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 1

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/YVH_1

Industrial Sophistication: 1

ROFL. So you apparently think that being able to construct Death Star 2 in under stand or being able to construct a planet's worth of skyscrapers that dwarf mountains is insignificant next to the power of schematics.

Industrial Size: 4

Which should give the Empire a huge boost, but instead only gives them the same bonus as nuclear weapons.

Power Source: 3

Oh, so reactors millions of times more powerful than the sun are not impressive to you?

Total: 33

ROFL!

Point-wise, each sci-fi may be one or two off, due to specific episodes suggesting one thing, but it rarely being seen or something, but in the end it's fairly accurate I think. As you'll notice, 24th Century UFP tends to be in the low 40s, with more advanced. The Time Lords (unsurprisingly) find themselves waaay ahead of the pack in the 60s. Personally, I think most sci-fis are going to end up in the 30s-40s range.

In conclusion:

Having an intergalactic industry is apparently not any better than having M/AM tech, even though to have an intergalactic industry you'd need some sort of uber advanced M/AM tech or another even more advanced power system.

Having a universal industry is apparentlyonly 6 times the benefit of having a planetary economy, despite the fact that the universe contains an unimaginably large amount of planets.

Having a stellar biological weapon is apparently on par with nuclear weapons that can barely affect a state.

Having complete temporal and dimensional mastery is apparently less than having nuclear weapons. Are we superior to the time lords?

Having a universe destroying superweapon is apparently on par with having gigaton level weapons.

Having a galactic industry is apparently less impressive than having nuclear weapons.

And other ridiculous stuff.

Continued from previous post.

So let's see how various factions would do:

Modern Earth

Ground weapons: 5
Ground Defenses: 2
Transport: 1
Propulsion: 1
Special Propulsion: 0
Typical Weapons: 1
Defenses: 1
Super Weapons: 0.5
Bio-Chemical Weapons: 1.5
Mutant/Machine/Cyborg Weapons: 0.1
Industrial Sophistication: 1
Industrial Size: 1
Power Source: 2
Total: 17.1

Based on this scale, two modern day Earths could apparently take on the Empire, and 5 could take on the Time Lords.

Aka, the scale is flawed. Nice try though.

More flawness:

Hypothetical faction A:


Ground Weapons: 5
Industry size: 1
Biological weapons: 3

Hypothetical faction B:

Ground Weapons: 2
Industry size: 6
Biological weapons: 0

Hypothetical faction A: nuclear capable, planetary civilization with biological weapons.
Hypothetical faction B: universe spanning civilization with 10,000 kg relativistic weapons moving at 0.99 C...for civilian ships, far more powerful than any nuke, but a lack of biological weapons due to moral qualms.

Based on your scale...faction A wins! That's right, a pre-space age civilization with nuclear weapons in the terajoule range (trillions of joules) and bio weapons can apparently defeat a universe spanning civilization with civilian weapons exceeding 10^20 joules (a hundred billion billion joules) but no bio weapons due to moral qualms. Apparently, you think that planet covering bio weapons would actually hurt a civilization covering a universe, aka at least quadrillions of galaxy, each galaxy having on average having billions of planets. Of course, in reality faction B wouldn't even perceive faction A to be a threat.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Hypothetical faction A:


Ground Weapons: 5
Industry size: 1
Biological weapons: 3

Hypothetical faction B:

Ground Weapons: 2
Industry size: 6
Biological weapons: 0

Hypothetical faction A: nuclear capable, planetary civilization with biological weapons.
Hypothetical faction B: universe spanning civilization with 10,000 kg relativistic weapons moving at 0.99 C...for civilian ships, far more powerful than any nuke, but a lack of biological weapons due to moral qualms.

Based on your scale...faction A wins! That's right, a pre-space age civilization with nuclear weapons in the terajoule range (trillions of joules) and bio weapons can apparently defeat a universe spanning civilization with civilian weapons exceeding 10^20 joules (a hundred billion billion joules) but no bio weapons due to moral qualms. Apparently, you think that planet covering bio weapons would actually hurt a civilization covering a universe, aka at least quadrillions of galaxy, each galaxy having on average having billions of planets. Of course, in reality faction B wouldn't even perceive faction A to be a threat.

1. Mith has stated here and on spacebattles that this scale is for more than raw combat but how the two societies compare overall.

2. You selectivly took some of the points for your comparison while ignoring the rest and employed contrived "examples" to get the results you wanted.

3. Even ignoring the above you horribly abused your "example" anyway for example Ground_5: Nuclear refers to a society where nuclear scale yields for ground warfare are standard, think along the lines of the boloverse where megaton scale yields are used like sabot shells here on Earth are. Second you gave race B insanely huge firepower but completly failed to notice Mith had a checkpoint for that which would have given group B a six or a seven compared to group A's likely 3 or 4.

sonofccn wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Hypothetical faction A:


Ground Weapons: 5
Industry size: 1
Biological weapons: 3

Hypothetical faction B:

Ground Weapons: 2
Industry size: 6
Biological weapons: 0

Hypothetical faction A: nuclear capable, planetary civilization with biological weapons.
Hypothetical faction B: universe spanning civilization with 10,000 kg relativistic weapons moving at 0.99 C...for civilian ships, far more powerful than any nuke, but a lack of biological weapons due to moral qualms.

Based on your scale...faction A wins! That's right, a pre-space age civilization with nuclear weapons in the terajoule range (trillions of joules) and bio weapons can apparently defeat a universe spanning civilization with civilian weapons exceeding 10^20 joules (a hundred billion billion joules) but no bio weapons due to moral qualms. Apparently, you think that planet covering bio weapons would actually hurt a civilization covering a universe, aka at least quadrillions of galaxy, each galaxy having on average having billions of planets. Of course, in reality faction B wouldn't even perceive faction A to be a threat.

1. Mith has stated here and on spacebattles that this scale is for more than raw combat but how the two societies compare overall.

2. You selectivly took some of the points for your comparison while ignoring the rest and employed contrived "examples" to get the results you wanted.

3. Even ignoring the above you horribly abused your "example" anyway for example Ground_5: Nuclear refers to a society where nuclear scale yields for ground warfare are standard, think along the lines of the boloverse where megaton scale yields are used like sabot shells here on Earth are. Second you gave race B insanely huge firepower but completly failed to notice Mith had a checkpoint for that which would have given group B a six or a seven compared to group A's likely 3 or 4.

Mith apparently thinks that having standard issue nuclear level yield weaponry is on par with having an intergalactic economy or even having complete mastery of space and time. Do you seriously fail to comprehend the ridiculousness of that?

There just are too many problems with these scales. For example, when comparing industrial might, is it for looking at the means available to build a given object of a given size, so we can compare which system is better?
The power generation scale isn't any better either. Antimatter may be powerful, but it's extremely dangerous to handle, and considerably hard to obtain. The scale totally disregards economics. In comparison, fusion fuel are considerably easier to handle, and so naturally plentiful it's literally insulting to antimatter. :)
Plus it doesn't take into account the miniaturization of the core.
Besides, for some advanced made up or near god-like abilities, there's nothing which can really be gauged in such terms as economics or even efficiency. There's also no idea of how widespread one capacity is or not.
It's a good try, but I'll not use it anytime soon. I'd rather simply list what a civlization or group can and cannot do, state the pros and cons and limit myself to that.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Mith apparently thinks that having standard issue nuclear level yield weaponry is on par with having an intergalactic economy or even having complete mastery of space and time. Do you seriously fail to comprehend the ridiculousness of that?

Well I'd be the first to say the industrial scale needs to be retooled but you have to take the entire check list not pick and match as you see fit trying to make a descrepency. For instance an intergalactic society which fields say warships which are felled by kiloton yields and whose army consists primarly of stormtrooper type troops would be hard pressed against a plantary force which fielded armies of bolos.

Now if you have any constructive criticism or wish to do some test runs with various and diverse sci-fi universes to see how the point system handles thats one thing but as is all your really doing is jumping up and down screaming.

sonofccn wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Mith apparently thinks that having standard issue nuclear level yield weaponry is on par with having an intergalactic economy or even having complete mastery of space and time. Do you seriously fail to comprehend the ridiculousness of that?

Well I'd be the first to say the industrial scale needs to be retooled but you have to take the entire check list not pick and match as you see fit trying to make a descrepency. For instance an intergalactic society which fields say warships which are felled by kiloton yields and whose army consists primarly of stormtrooper type troops would be hard pressed against a plantary force which fielded armies of bolos.

Now if you have any constructive criticism or wish to do some test runs with various and diverse sci-fi universes to see how the point system handles thats one thing but as is all your really doing is jumping up and down screaming.

For my examples, assume that the other sections not included are equal for both sides. The point is that having nuclear weapons, even as standard weapons, being weighed more than having complete mastery of space and time or having an intergalactic economy is laughable to the extreme. Role play scenario: if you were the commander of an army, would you rather have, please list in priority from 1 to 5 as higher to lower priority:

Complete mastery of space and time
Nuclear yield weapons as standard weapons
Galactic travel
An intergalactic economy
Planetary bio weapons

It's also strange that having a universal economy is only two points higher than having a galactic economy, even though a universal economy would imply both insanely fast FTL speeds and hundreds of billions of galaxies vs one.

As for your analogy, the intergalactic side, if having a competent leader and being dedicated to the cause, could quite easily wipe out a planetary civilizations even if the planetary civilization had armies of bolos. You still don't seem to understand how staggeringly powerful an intergalactic civilization would be.

Not to mention that a hypothetical universal or intergalactic/galactic civilization would have to have some sort of technoblabble FTL method, and such a civilization's power generation would be so ridiculously massive that teraton level weapons would not be even near what it could generate, yet apparently having teraton level weapons is on par with having the resources of the entire universe; in the known universe, the power output which would exceeed 10^50 watts, but apparently teratons level weapons would be on par with that.

Also, apparently having standard nuclear level weapons (which could be as low as sub kiloton) is on par with having gigaton level weapons...which is on par with having a universe spanning industry. This is beyond ridiculous.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:The point is that having nuclear weapons, even as standard weapons, being weighed more than having complete mastery of space and time or having an intergalactic economy is laughable to the extreme.

The point is the system is striving for a over all comparision and a 5 under ground weapons isn't in and of itself being compared directly to temporal or economy or whatever. So nuke spam isn't just a notch below timelords its that in that one area, ground weapons, they rank as a five. Than when we are done tabulating everything we add it all up and get a rough estimate of where this race places in the grander scheme. To attempt to compensate for races rather highly "advanced" in certain areas but heavily defunct in others.

Role play scenario: if you were the commander of an army, would you rather have, please list in priority from 1 to 5 as higher to lower priority:

Complete mastery of space and time
Nuclear yield weapons as standard weapons
Galactic travel
An intergalactic economy
Planetary bio weapons

Just for fun:

1. Complete mastery of time and space
2. Nuclear yield weapons as standard
3.Galactic travel
4.Galactic economy
5. Planetary bioweapons

As for your analogy, the intergalactic side, if having a competent leader and being dedicated to the cause, could quite easily wipe out a planetary civilizations even if the planetary civilization had armies of bolos. You still don't seem to understand how staggeringly powerful an intergalactic civilization would be.

Possibly at great expense and by simply mobbing the planet with sheer numbers. It be a bit like trying to storm a WWI type trench backed up with artillery, planes and tanks with nothing more but waves of swordsmen. The world may lose but I'd hardly call it a victory for the other side.

Not to mention that a hypothetical universal or intergalactic/galactic civilization would have to have some sort of technoblabble FTL method, and such a civilization's power generation would be so ridiculously massive that teraton level weapons would not be even near what it could generate

No any hypothetical intergalatic/galatic civilization may have a technobabble FTL, STL only or limited to naturally occuring wormholes do pop up in scif-dom, but that means absolutely nothing more than that. One can not calculate energy expenditures based simply because they fly from point A to point B with a technobablle stardrive.

in the known universe, the power output which would exceeed 10^50 watts, but apparently teratons level weapons would be on par with that.

Assuming this Universal faction could even utilize it as opposed to a good eighty percent of these big empires which depict rather mundane worlds gathering power from simple reactors instead of dyson spheres and sucking off power from blackholes.

Also, apparently having standard nuclear level weapons (which could be as low as sub kiloton) is on par with having gigaton level weapons...which is on par with having a universe spanning industry.

Perhaps they are not meant to be directly compared or do you really think having a ZPM is plus 4 better than having time travel? Perhaps these are just tallies to show how a race did in a particular field and for use of use and refrence they are than added togather to give you a rough idea where the faction stands?

This is beyond ridiculous.

No the rather ham-fisted manner you keep attacking the point system in one of the worst ways possible, as opposed to intelligently point out actual flaws or the impossibility of having an accurate point system work as others have done, is ridiculous.

sonofccn wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:The point is that having nuclear weapons, even as standard weapons, being weighed more than having complete mastery of space and time or having an intergalactic economy is laughable to the extreme.

The point is the system is striving for a over all comparision and a 5 under ground weapons isn't in and of itself being compared directly to temporal or economy or whatever. So nuke spam isn't just a notch below timelords its that in that one area, ground weapons, they rank as a five. Than when we are done tabulating everything we add it all up and get a rough estimate of where this race places in the grander scheme. To attempt to compensate for races rather highly "advanced" in certain areas but heavily defunct in others.

Role play scenario: if you were the commander of an army, would you rather have, please list in priority from 1 to 5 as higher to lower priority:

Complete mastery of space and time
Nuclear yield weapons as standard weapons
Galactic travel
An intergalactic economy
Planetary bio weapons

Just for fun:

1. Complete mastery of time and space
2. Nuclear yield weapons as standard
3.Galactic travel
4.Galactic economy
5. Planetary bioweapons

As for your analogy, the intergalactic side, if having a competent leader and being dedicated to the cause, could quite easily wipe out a planetary civilizations even if the planetary civilization had armies of bolos. You still don't seem to understand how staggeringly powerful an intergalactic civilization would be.

Possibly at great expense and by simply mobbing the planet with sheer numbers. It be a bit like trying to storm a WWI type trench backed up with artillery, planes and tanks with nothing more but waves of swordsmen. The world may lose but I'd hardly call it a victory for the other side.

Not to mention that a hypothetical universal or intergalactic/galactic civilization would have to have some sort of technoblabble FTL method, and such a civilization's power generation would be so ridiculously massive that teraton level weapons would not be even near what it could generate

No any hypothetical intergalatic/galatic civilization may have a technobabble FTL, STL only or limited to naturally occuring wormholes do pop up in scif-dom, but that means absolutely nothing more than that. One can not calculate energy expenditures based simply because they fly from point A to point B with a technobablle stardrive.

in the known universe, the power output which would exceeed 10^50 watts, but apparently teratons level weapons would be on par with that.

Assuming this Universal faction could even utilize it as opposed to a good eighty percent of these big empires which depict rather mundane worlds gathering power from simple reactors instead of dyson spheres and sucking off power from blackholes.

Also, apparently having standard nuclear level weapons (which could be as low as sub kiloton) is on par with having gigaton level weapons...which is on par with having a universe spanning industry.

Perhaps they are not meant to be directly compared or do you really think having a ZPM is plus 4 better than having time travel? Perhaps these are just tallies to show how a race did in a particular field and for use of use and refrence they are than added togather to give you a rough idea where the faction stands?

This is beyond ridiculous.

No the rather ham-fisted manner you keep attacking the point system in one of the worst ways possible, as opposed to intelligently point out actual flaws or the impossibility of having an accurate point system work as others have done, is ridiculous.

I had made a long rebuttal to this, but it got wiped by me hitting the back button by accident. However, to make it shorter:

Lucky, I try to be civil when I debate, but based on your arguments in this debate, you are a moron. You are defending a scale that weighs standard issue nukes and nuke tanking superhumans on par with a universe spanning civilization. This is crazy. Your justification is that the seperate categories are "not meant to be directly compared", but they are, hence why there is a "total" score. This is supposed to be the overall "power" of the civilization, based on adding up the scores of seperate categories. However, these categories are not only flawed into themselves, but they have extreme issues in terms of their importance and weighting. Unless if you can prove that having standard issue nukes is on par with having a universe spanning civilization.

A universe spanning civilization should realistically give the civilization +1 trillion points or more. Complete mastery over space and time should realistically give the civilization infinite points. Here's a question:

A civilization with a 3 on the temporal/dimensional category but a 1 on everything else
vs
A civilization with a 6 on the ground combat section, a 3 on the bio weapon section but a 1 on everything else

Which one would win and by how much:

1. Realistically
2. Based on the scale

StarWarsStarTrek we're going in circles, perhaps we should just agree to disagree? Anyway to your post than:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:This is supposed to be the overall "power" of the civilization, based on adding up the scores of seperate categories

The system is to understand which faction is more advanced over all. "Power" is not directly an issue as Mith has stated. The individual catagories are not meant to be directly compared to each other as is self-evident. Frankly at this point I believe you are just being argumantive.

However, these categories are not only flawed into themselves

Considering this was a trail balloon testing system some issues are to be expected. However the only "flaw" you have discussed at lenght exists solely in your imagination.

but they have extreme issues in terms of their importance and weighting.

Are you trying to say "rating" or does weight,as in how heavy an item is, have a meaning I am not versed in? As to your quibble it is not Mith's or anyone elses issue that you keep viewing the point system incorrectly.

Unless if you can prove that having standard issue nukes is on par with having a universe spanning civilization.

I don't need to because that isn't what the system is claiming. As to who would win, which seems all you care about, I have already answered you on the scenario you proposed. If you have a way for a race whose ships can be insta killed by the planet's defenders to win without a bloodletting of mammoth proportions I'm eager to hear it.

A universe spanning civilization should realistically give the civilization +1 trillion points or more.

Which, just incase you somehow failed to notice, would defeat the purpuse of the system which is more than just who would win in a fight. What would be the point of trying to guage its rank across the board if you gave it such obscenely high numbers? They could be a race of medevil peasents walking through stargates linked across the universe and they'd outrank galaxy devouring von neman machines.

Here's a question:

A civilization with a 3 on the temporal/dimensional category but a 1 on everything else
vs
A civilization with a 6 on the ground combat section, a 3 on the bio weapon section but a 1 on everything else

Which one would win and by how much:

1. Realistically
2. Based on the scale

Well since civilization B employs time based weaponry as a matter of course meaning its far more wide spread in that culture than the other even if they've refined thiers more, and are likely harden against such effects they'd have a shot to win. I'd say it could go either way unless we have more hard data to go off of.