After suggesting a things or two to his friend Lucas, Spielberg is given the opportunity to craft a personal edition of the Hoth battle.
Immediately, he removes all of Echo Base's ground and air defenses, so this means no more starfighters, ion/laser turrets or airspeeders.
He keeps the shield in place though, and gives the rebels martian tripods instead, straight from his version of War of the Worlds.
He evens the situation and gives both sides equal numbers, so the imperials don't have the small walkers anymore.
- 10 Tripods
vs.
- 10 AT-ATs
Each AT-AT has a crew of three men in the cockpit, plus twenty snowtroopers in the cargo hold.
The tripods are resting inside Echo Base's main hangar, while the imperial walkers start like they did in Lucas' version, that is, tens of kilometers away, say 50 km.
Tripods are fully functional. No cold shit.
Will the rebels win?
Spielberg edits The Empire Strikes Back
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Mr. Oragahn
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Well, the Tripods' shields aren't really quantifiable, as we've never seen them go down. Which would basically mean that this can't end with the assumption that the Imperials win. In essence we are talking about an outcome ranging from 'unknown' to 'tripod victory'.
But, i'm a little in the dark about the AT-ATs as well, the movies didn't really give us anything quantifiable. The most impressive feat was the effect when a AT-AT blew up the power generator, though that might have been, and probably was, the result of the generator going up, not the weapons fire by itself.
I have no idea what the EU or the novels say about the AT-ATs though.
Though i suppose, that a tripod would be able to walk up to a AT-AT, and tip it over, considering we've seen a tripod tip over a boat. The AT-ATs with their center of gravity so high up, are bound to be quite wobbly and unstable.
Oh, wait, is the cockpit exposed on the AT-AT as it was on the AT-ST, if it is, then this could be a serious problem for the crew.
Actually, thinking even furter on this, the energy weapons on the tripods have enough of a kinetic kick to them to send entire bridges along with trucks and cars on them flying. This, in itself, might be enough to tip the thing over.
But, i'm a little in the dark about the AT-ATs as well, the movies didn't really give us anything quantifiable. The most impressive feat was the effect when a AT-AT blew up the power generator, though that might have been, and probably was, the result of the generator going up, not the weapons fire by itself.
I have no idea what the EU or the novels say about the AT-ATs though.
Though i suppose, that a tripod would be able to walk up to a AT-AT, and tip it over, considering we've seen a tripod tip over a boat. The AT-ATs with their center of gravity so high up, are bound to be quite wobbly and unstable.
Oh, wait, is the cockpit exposed on the AT-AT as it was on the AT-ST, if it is, then this could be a serious problem for the crew.
Actually, thinking even furter on this, the energy weapons on the tripods have enough of a kinetic kick to them to send entire bridges along with trucks and cars on them flying. This, in itself, might be enough to tip the thing over.
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Mike DiCenso
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This thread reminds me a lot of one I started over a year ago on the old Strek-V-Swars.Net forum about the George Pal Martian War Machines versus AT-ATs. There was no question, even from a particular die-hard Warsie that the Pal manta-ray craft would easily stomp the AT-AT since the GP War Machines have shields that can withstand not only high KE impacts, but easily can at the very least, deflect the energy of a 200 KT nuke, and the disintegrator and heat ray weapons could easily vaporize humans and tanks without any effort.
The Spielberg Tripods are a different matter altogether; as already pointed out, the Tripods shields can easily withstand simultaneously dozens of KE and chemical-based explosive munitions bombardment over a period of time (setting low tens-of-megajoules as a lower limit), however there was never a point shown were the shields failed or were ever in danger of failing. At the lower established limits, a Tripod should be able to
withstand the lower level firepower for the AT-AT and AT-STs. They are also invunerable to Luke's "trip-wire" attack.
On the other hand, without shields, we have seen that a few rounds from a conventional 21st century LAWs-type rocket will be enough to topple a Tripod, or a well-placed hand grenade. So if the shields of the Tripods can be brought down, then they are at a signficant disadvantage to the AT-AT in that matter.
-Mike
The Spielberg Tripods are a different matter altogether; as already pointed out, the Tripods shields can easily withstand simultaneously dozens of KE and chemical-based explosive munitions bombardment over a period of time (setting low tens-of-megajoules as a lower limit), however there was never a point shown were the shields failed or were ever in danger of failing. At the lower established limits, a Tripod should be able to
withstand the lower level firepower for the AT-AT and AT-STs. They are also invunerable to Luke's "trip-wire" attack.
On the other hand, without shields, we have seen that a few rounds from a conventional 21st century LAWs-type rocket will be enough to topple a Tripod, or a well-placed hand grenade. So if the shields of the Tripods can be brought down, then they are at a signficant disadvantage to the AT-AT in that matter.
-Mike
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Mr. Oragahn
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There is evidence that AT-AT may be shielded. Notably one of the bolts fired at an AT-AT's leg actually spreading over an invisible layer that seems to be hull hugging (shortly after the sequence where R2 is plugged into the X-wing slot), with a space of something like two meters between said skin and the leg, and further away from the hull for other sections of the vehicle (probably a gap between 3 and 5 meters).
That mixed to some tough armor explains why the rebels couldn't defeat them.
As for the Tripods, their energy can't be limitless.
There has to be a way to quantify the power they can dump into the shields.
There were reportso of japanese destroying tripods, but it's possible that they were kamikaze transporting bombs with them and waiting to be picked up to blow them after that.
Their shields aren't always on. You can see that when they move through debris or terrain (which supports powerful machinery here).
That mixed to some tough armor explains why the rebels couldn't defeat them.
As for the Tripods, their energy can't be limitless.
There has to be a way to quantify the power they can dump into the shields.
There were reportso of japanese destroying tripods, but it's possible that they were kamikaze transporting bombs with them and waiting to be picked up to blow them after that.
Their shields aren't always on. You can see that when they move through debris or terrain (which supports powerful machinery here).
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mike DiCenso
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Mr. Oragahn wrote:There is evidence that AT-AT may be shielded. Notably one of the bolts fired at an AT-AT's leg actually spreading over an invisible layer that seems to be hull hugging (shortly after the sequence where R2 is plugged into the X-wing slot), with a space of something like two meters between said skin and the leg, and further away from the hull for other sections of the vehicle (probably a gap between 3 and 5 meters).
That mixed to some tough armor explains why the rebels couldn't defeat them.
As for the Tripods, their energy can't be limitless.
There has to be a way to quantify the power they can dump into the shields.
There were reportso of japanese destroying tripods, but it's possible that they were kamikaze transporting bombs with them and waiting to be picked up to blow them after that.
Their shields aren't always on. You can see that when they move through debris or terrain (which supports powerful machinery here).
- Actually, Luke specifically notes that the AT-AT armor is "too strong for blasters", no indication of shields. The armor in question probably has a high heat refraction index.
- The Japanese destruction of the Tripods in all likelyhood were indeed the result of soldiers or civilians doing exactly what Tom Cruise's character does later on in the movie.
- The Tripods never seemed to need refueling or other support service "in the field" that we could ascertain, and they also had little trouble digging their way up from apparently hundreds of meters below ground to the surface in a matter of seconds, which indicate high-power generation capabilites when needed.
- That the Tripods have "smart shields" that can turn on and off as need be might indicate power conservation is necessary.
-Mike
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Mr. Oragahn
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Yes, he talks about armor, but if we start taking visuals into consideration, we have matter to dispute that idea.Mike DiCenso wrote:- Actually, Luke specifically notes that the AT-AT armor is "too strong for blasters", no indication of shields. The armor in question probably has a high heat refraction index.
First, the multiple explosions occuring around the AT-ATs. Ok, I'm a fervent defender of flak weapons, so I'm not away from thinking that blasters can also work that way.
However, the example I've mentionned above has absolutely nothing to do with flak.
I agree.- The Japanese destruction of the Tripods in all likelyhood were indeed the result of soldiers or civilians doing exactly what Tom Cruise's character does later on in the movie.
And thus a potential weakness. However, I doubt the martians would drop the shields in the heat of a battle.- The Tripods never seemed to need refueling or other support service "in the field" that we could ascertain, and they also had little trouble digging their way up from apparently hundreds of meters below ground to the surface in a matter of seconds, which indicate high-power generation capabilites when needed.
- That the Tripods have "smart shields" that can turn on and off as need be might indicate power conservation is necessary.
As for the more fragile part... The tripods' more flexible parts appear much more fragile. Those probing eyes on tentacles could be cut with an axe.
The armor on the main body is sturdier, but still easily comes down after a focused barrage of four or five rockets.
While you could probably easily topple imperial quadripods, doing so with tripods is going to be hard. I think that a machine that can easily move through the ground and break through whole buildings just by the strenght of its legs won't be threatened by a mere hole.
However, falling in a hole might reveal a rift in the shield.
A pity that the AT-ATs can't deploy mines.
Tripods are incredible machines, but they're not invulnerable.
Let's see. They were anihilating entire populations instead of actually harvesting humans. They only started to terraform regions which were massively depopulated.
Therefore, the first phase was to kill as many humans as possible. If they wanted to do so, they'd the most devastating weapons they could come with.
What about their rate of fire when ashing people? There's a number of rays they fire per second, and I suppose it's possible to find an energy figure from there.
As for the weapons used to devastate the bridge, what do we really know?
I don't remember seeing other weapons on the tripods besides those two ashguns. What really caused its destruction? Do we see it in details? Are we sure that only one tripod was responsible of this?
What about the range?
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Okay, so I've been watching key sequences of the film.
The heatguns are either acting like massive jets, pushing through matter and sending cars flying in the air fifteen meters above the ground, or blowing wooden houses like a nuke airblast would, or literally turning people to ashes in less than a second of constant exposure, yet the beam that goes through a body and hits the road does not leave a single scorch mark on it.
Obviously, they're able to quickly switch between vape mode and KE mode, with varying degrees of dosage, since a beam can both pierce a building and vape people, or jsut go through a car's windshield without breaking it, still violently push it down the street and vape the person inside it.
Maybe some kind of radiowaves.
That same freaking weapon will also be able to turn into somekind of torching gun, quickly setting things on fire.
At least two different sounds when the weapons are used does support the idea of different firing modes.
It took five extremely large but short beams to get rid of that big bridge, blowing the concrete up and sending all those trucks flying in the air like five meters above the bridge, which got completely twisted off axis.
In terms of range, it's hard to say, but it looks like it primarily engages targets located within 100 or 200 meters.
Now, there's that aircraft crash, which happened for unknown reasons.
It's possible the plane got caught in the EM storm, or was shot down.
However, the problem is that those storms have a limited range, and planes don't fall like bricks when engines are cut, which is what the EMP would have done.
Flashings occured all around the house, and immediately after that the plane crashed, which means it was flying at a low altitude.
There's vast room to consider that this plane was shot down by a tripod.
If not, then the imperial quadripods have a big advantage, since they're proven to be able to shoot at a stationary but big target located more than 17.2 km ahead.
As for the tripods' shields, there's that hill battle. Five humvees get torched, and then a whole line of tanks seem to explode. A tripod rises from this fiery mess, and the flames are literally licking its hull. Yet, those same shields are still active the seconds after that when missiles are fired at the machines, and stop them more than something like eight meters away from the tripod's main body.
It seems that a tripod is between 35 and 45 meters tall.
As for fuel, it seems that the humans hold prisonner in the basket was to for "food". The tripods were fairly organic, had all sorts of juices, and even the main mody may have been filled with some of nutritive fluid.
Which means that the rebels would need to wear suits in the fluid is vital.
They'd need to feed the machines with something. Maybe bacta tanks, I don't know. Wampa steaks. Blood canisters. But there's clearly somekind of limit there.
A tripod is like a cyborg somehow, the outer shell acting like a power-exoskeleton, and seems to need both food and a more energetic power source, like a reactor.
The heatguns are either acting like massive jets, pushing through matter and sending cars flying in the air fifteen meters above the ground, or blowing wooden houses like a nuke airblast would, or literally turning people to ashes in less than a second of constant exposure, yet the beam that goes through a body and hits the road does not leave a single scorch mark on it.
Obviously, they're able to quickly switch between vape mode and KE mode, with varying degrees of dosage, since a beam can both pierce a building and vape people, or jsut go through a car's windshield without breaking it, still violently push it down the street and vape the person inside it.
Maybe some kind of radiowaves.
That same freaking weapon will also be able to turn into somekind of torching gun, quickly setting things on fire.
At least two different sounds when the weapons are used does support the idea of different firing modes.
It took five extremely large but short beams to get rid of that big bridge, blowing the concrete up and sending all those trucks flying in the air like five meters above the bridge, which got completely twisted off axis.
In terms of range, it's hard to say, but it looks like it primarily engages targets located within 100 or 200 meters.
Now, there's that aircraft crash, which happened for unknown reasons.
It's possible the plane got caught in the EM storm, or was shot down.
However, the problem is that those storms have a limited range, and planes don't fall like bricks when engines are cut, which is what the EMP would have done.
Flashings occured all around the house, and immediately after that the plane crashed, which means it was flying at a low altitude.
There's vast room to consider that this plane was shot down by a tripod.
If not, then the imperial quadripods have a big advantage, since they're proven to be able to shoot at a stationary but big target located more than 17.2 km ahead.
As for the tripods' shields, there's that hill battle. Five humvees get torched, and then a whole line of tanks seem to explode. A tripod rises from this fiery mess, and the flames are literally licking its hull. Yet, those same shields are still active the seconds after that when missiles are fired at the machines, and stop them more than something like eight meters away from the tripod's main body.
It seems that a tripod is between 35 and 45 meters tall.
As for fuel, it seems that the humans hold prisonner in the basket was to for "food". The tripods were fairly organic, had all sorts of juices, and even the main mody may have been filled with some of nutritive fluid.
Which means that the rebels would need to wear suits in the fluid is vital.
They'd need to feed the machines with something. Maybe bacta tanks, I don't know. Wampa steaks. Blood canisters. But there's clearly somekind of limit there.
A tripod is like a cyborg somehow, the outer shell acting like a power-exoskeleton, and seems to need both food and a more energetic power source, like a reactor.
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Mike DiCenso
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17 km for an AT-AT, eh? The hilarious thing about that is that it makes an AT-AT longer ranged than an EU X-wing or TIE:
Corran glanced at his sensors, then up at the gas giant. Black specs rose up through the clouds, looking for a moment like insects trapped between two panes of transparisteel. Though kilometers distant, he knew what they were: TIE fighters, Interceptors, and Bombers."
" Because of the vast distances in space, the Rogues and their counterparts could see each other long before they could engage each other. Minutes would pass before they would close to effective fighting ranges. Having time to think about what was coming seldom did a warrior any good - and training was meant to take over when thought wasn't possible. You're leading Three Flight, Corran. Prep them for what's coming." [ "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" p.182-3 ]
X-wing effective fighting range is positively pathetic.
11.1 "Coming up and around, she dropped her Interceptor on his tail, but saw he already had ten kilometers worth of lead over her. Even with the Interceptor's greater speed, I won't catch him before he escapes the atmosphere and goes to lightspeed." [ "X-Wing: The Bacta War", p. 160 ]
"By shunting more energy to her engines, she could increase her speed, but her lasers would have no power to shoot Gavin when she caught him." [ "X-Wing: The Bacta War", p. 160 ]
Gotta love that EU! ;-)
-Mike
Corran glanced at his sensors, then up at the gas giant. Black specs rose up through the clouds, looking for a moment like insects trapped between two panes of transparisteel. Though kilometers distant, he knew what they were: TIE fighters, Interceptors, and Bombers."
" Because of the vast distances in space, the Rogues and their counterparts could see each other long before they could engage each other. Minutes would pass before they would close to effective fighting ranges. Having time to think about what was coming seldom did a warrior any good - and training was meant to take over when thought wasn't possible. You're leading Three Flight, Corran. Prep them for what's coming." [ "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" p.182-3 ]
X-wing effective fighting range is positively pathetic.
11.1 "Coming up and around, she dropped her Interceptor on his tail, but saw he already had ten kilometers worth of lead over her. Even with the Interceptor's greater speed, I won't catch him before he escapes the atmosphere and goes to lightspeed." [ "X-Wing: The Bacta War", p. 160 ]
"By shunting more energy to her engines, she could increase her speed, but her lasers would have no power to shoot Gavin when she caught him." [ "X-Wing: The Bacta War", p. 160 ]
Gotta love that EU! ;-)
-Mike
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AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
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In visual range, but still minutes from weapons range? So much for 1000+ Gs of acceleration, oh that's right they're near a planet, I forgot that planetary proximity will cause acceleration variances up to 6 orders of magnitude.
As for the AT-AT's firing range, I'll believe 17km when I see the calcs.
As for the AT-AT's firing range, I'll believe 17km when I see the calcs.
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Mr. Oragahn
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Weapon range still makes sense, if range also incorporate a nice probability of hitting a target.Mike DiCenso wrote:17 km for an AT-AT, eh? The hilarious thing about that is that it makes an AT-AT longer ranged than an EU X-wing or TIE:
Corran glanced at his sensors, then up at the gas giant. Black specs rose up through the clouds, looking for a moment like insects trapped between two panes of transparisteel. Though kilometers distant, he knew what they were: TIE fighters, Interceptors, and Bombers."
" Because of the vast distances in space, the Rogues and their counterparts could see each other long before they could engage each other. Minutes would pass before they would close to effective fighting ranges. Having time to think about what was coming seldom did a warrior any good - and training was meant to take over when thought wasn't possible. You're leading Three Flight, Corran. Prep them for what's coming." [ "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" p.182-3 ]
X-wing effective fighting range is positively pathetic.
11.1 "Coming up and around, she dropped her Interceptor on his tail, but saw he already had ten kilometers worth of lead over her. Even with the Interceptor's greater speed, I won't catch him before he escapes the atmosphere and goes to lightspeed." [ "X-Wing: The Bacta War", p. 160 ]
"By shunting more energy to her engines, she could increase her speed, but her lasers would have no power to shoot Gavin when she caught him." [ "X-Wing: The Bacta War", p. 160 ]
Gotta love that EU! ;-)
-Mike
When dealing with fighters leaving a planet full throttle, considering the speed at which SW's bolts usually move, even if they could reach quite far, the chances of hitting anything from such large distances are near to totally null.
That's a whole diferent story when you have a walker, with a nice LOS, aiming at a big and completely immobile target.
As for the range, it was not a calc in fact.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/walkers.html#atat-weaponry
For a change, I find myself agreeing with this. But I suppose a detailed verification for debunk would be appreciated, if anyone had issues about this claim.
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Looking at the SWTC article, as usual it displays the problems that seem to invariably crop up with Saxton's "conclusions". For instance, Saxton automatically assumes that Veer's "one-seven-decimal-two-eight" is 17.28 km. Further, Saxton goes on to make assumptions about the rebel base generator without going into the details. Why aren't we shown images, of all things, of the generator and the objects (people) nearby used to scale it's height? Or did Saxton once again conveintly use a production painting or some other image of dubious-canon origin?
What we need is:
1.) Clear views of the generator (in particular the various points at which the generator was visible from the General Veer's AT-AT's cockpit window)
2.) On-screen views of the shield generator seen next to objects that are fairly well-defined.
3.) Once a reasonable height and width average is determined for the generator, then use geometery to determine the distance from Veer's walker to the generator at the time he orders it to fire.
Also, I'd like to know how this compares to what we see of the Tripods' performances in WotW.
-Mike
What we need is:
1.) Clear views of the generator (in particular the various points at which the generator was visible from the General Veer's AT-AT's cockpit window)
2.) On-screen views of the shield generator seen next to objects that are fairly well-defined.
3.) Once a reasonable height and width average is determined for the generator, then use geometery to determine the distance from Veer's walker to the generator at the time he orders it to fire.
Also, I'd like to know how this compares to what we see of the Tripods' performances in WotW.
-Mike
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I just rewatched the Hoth battle and there is no way that it was 17.28km, hell it probably wasn't even 1.728km, unless that generator was absolutely huge. Well before they are in range (right after we first see an AT-ST) we can see the generator across the ice plain and it is maybe a kilometer away, assuming no zoom (since there was no display info on screen which we see with the rebel binoculars) and a 20-30m tall generator. When the crew member calls out the distance and Veers says to fire, they appear significantly closer. If it the distance was given in a metric measurement then 172.8m is the closest to what we see. What's funny that the AT-ATs demonstrate significantly further range earlier in the battle when shooting at the trenches when they are about a km away, they just don't have very good accuracy until they are about 500m away.