Halo : Reach datapads

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Mith
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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mith » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:44 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: The amusing thing is that he will argue the opposite when it comes to fireballs and explosions seen in SW.

The last i heard was that they are still claiming DET but now with a magic nubble that focuses all the energy into the target area and as such show only small spurts of crap insead of blasts.....
I'd laugh harder, but I heard a similar argument from the old Warsie party a year or so back amounting to the same thing. Mind you, they were more intelligent about it in that they went for shaped blasts, but even then as I pointed out, you're still going to notice hundreds of gigatons, even if 90% of the energy is directed away.

You'd notice it alot.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:12 pm

I saw a funny psot from Nattuo at SBC.

Post 666.
Nattuo wrote: Exodus.

Transcript:
Stacker (COM): "Kilo 26, this is Kilo 40. Covenant corvette is raining hell on us! Final Protective Fire-1, danger close, on my command, over!"

Kilo 26 (COM): "Copy, Kilo 40. FPF-1 at your command."

Stacker (COM): "Fire FPF-1, over."

Kilo 26 (COM): "Firing FPF-1... Shot."

Stacker (COM): "Hold on to your helmets!"

--The ground shakes violently.

Kilo 26 (COM): "Kilo 40: request FPF sit-rep."

Stacker (COM): "Negative, 26! Corvette still coming!"

Kilo 26 (COM): "Copy, 40. Firing FPF-2... Shot."

--The ground shakes violently again.

Stacker (COM): "Damn! How do you stop that thing?"


Stacker was in charge of evacuating civilians through Traxus Tower, we later get confirmation that the Corvette that was attacking was the same one over the starport:
Stacker (COM): "If you're trying to get into tower, you're too late, Lieutenant. Corvette over the starport pounded the hell out of the place. Cargo port is impassable on foot, rooftop evacs are lost. We can use the executive landing pad, except there's no easy way to get there. A group of ODST specialists are working a plan. They might appreciate some backup."

So the Corevette being fired upon may well have already been damaged by FDF. Which would explain the lack of shield interaction.

Here's the video of the missiles impacting. Only two succeed in doing any real damage, and all six missiles have the same point of origin, suggesting they could have come from a single launcher.

Now, based on this image and using an eight hundred metre length, the Corvette is approximately 200 metres tall, we can compare it's height to the point where the bulge in the lower ring structure begins, it's 40 mm tall, and 60 mm across at the aforementioned point. Making the point before the bulge in the ring structure 300 metres across. The initial fireball seen here is about 20-25 mm across, giving it a rough diameter of 60-72 metres across.

60-72 metres corresponds loosely with one kiloton. Using the minimum fireball radius(that's the initial fireball) as the fireball being scaled was still mid flash. Not a desperatly precise scaling, but a decent enough ballpark estimate.
Right. Let's get some real examples for a change.

I have a video that shows an EOD of 1500 lbs (680 kg) of explosives being busted in a valley. With speed of sound being roughly 340 m/s, pausing one second after the detonation, I can get an idea of how big the fireball was. Easily 60-70 meters wide, and higher, as it was elongated vertically. Possibly because EODs could be partially buried beforehand.
http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-eod-deton ... T7s%5D.cfm
The initial flash proves that the ammo was concentrated into one single spot.

Then another one. 13,000 lbs (5.9 tonnes).
http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-eod-lbs-% ... FIU%5D.cfm
Again, speed of sound and all that. The fireball is huge (but ammo could have been spread).

That said, this one is undisputable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFAslOKhsU
35 tonnes.
Super slow-mo proves that the ammo was concentrated into one spot.
It takes more than five seconds for the blast wave to reach the camera. The explosion took place more than 1.7 km away. Hmm... yes, 35 tonnes.

The killer?
40,000 pounds (18.143 tonnes). Right after one second, you have the flash (it's amusing, it's like an energy weapon is fired at the spot). Right after two seconds, you can still see the edge of the blast wave on the left of the picture. The whitened inner radius conveniently represents half that range (170 meters then). Conclusion? The firbeall easily is around 100 meters wide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rInxeNBXS3o

Besides, how the heck can he look at an explosion that's going to rise and automatically pancake against the hull and get a yield from that by measuring the radius? Where did he get his number from in fact?

Besides, for a same yields, the more powerful the explosion, the farther the fireball could spread before atmospheric pressure gets the upper hand on it.
Nanochemicals may add to that.

So kiloton? Yeah, whatever.

This reminds of Halo 3's cutscene "Return to Sender", where a strafing run of two bombers blows up the hull of a large Covenant cruiser for a drifting Master Chief to slip through and drop the antimatter bomb be had borrowed from the Covenant (the bomb initially was placed by the Covenant on the Cairo station... don't ask why they didn't detonate it or simply fire it).

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mith » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:02 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I saw a funny psot from Nattuo at SBC.

Post 666.
Nattuo wrote: Exodus.

Transcript:
Stacker (COM): "Kilo 26, this is Kilo 40. Covenant corvette is raining hell on us! Final Protective Fire-1, danger close, on my command, over!"

Kilo 26 (COM): "Copy, Kilo 40. FPF-1 at your command."

Stacker (COM): "Fire FPF-1, over."

Kilo 26 (COM): "Firing FPF-1... Shot."

Stacker (COM): "Hold on to your helmets!"

--The ground shakes violently.

Kilo 26 (COM): "Kilo 40: request FPF sit-rep."

Stacker (COM): "Negative, 26! Corvette still coming!"

Kilo 26 (COM): "Copy, 40. Firing FPF-2... Shot."

--The ground shakes violently again.

Stacker (COM): "Damn! How do you stop that thing?"


Stacker was in charge of evacuating civilians through Traxus Tower, we later get confirmation that the Corvette that was attacking was the same one over the starport:
Stacker (COM): "If you're trying to get into tower, you're too late, Lieutenant. Corvette over the starport pounded the hell out of the place. Cargo port is impassable on foot, rooftop evacs are lost. We can use the executive landing pad, except there's no easy way to get there. A group of ODST specialists are working a plan. They might appreciate some backup."

So the Corevette being fired upon may well have already been damaged by FDF. Which would explain the lack of shield interaction.

Here's the video of the missiles impacting. Only two succeed in doing any real damage, and all six missiles have the same point of origin, suggesting they could have come from a single launcher.

Now, based on this image and using an eight hundred metre length, the Corvette is approximately 200 metres tall, we can compare it's height to the point where the bulge in the lower ring structure begins, it's 40 mm tall, and 60 mm across at the aforementioned point. Making the point before the bulge in the ring structure 300 metres across. The initial fireball seen here is about 20-25 mm across, giving it a rough diameter of 60-72 metres across.

60-72 metres corresponds loosely with one kiloton. Using the minimum fireball radius(that's the initial fireball) as the fireball being scaled was still mid flash. Not a desperatly precise scaling, but a decent enough ballpark estimate.
Right. Let's get some real examples for a change.

I have a video that shows an EOD of 1500 lbs (680 kg) of explosives being busted in a valley. With speed of sound being roughly 340 m/s, pausing one second after the detonation, I can get an idea of how big the fireball was. Easily 60-70 meters wide, and higher, as it was elongated vertically. Possibly because EODs could be partially buried beforehand.
http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-eod-deton ... T7s%5D.cfm
The initial flash proves that the ammo was concentrated into one single spot.

Then another one. 13,000 lbs (5.9 tonnes).
http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-eod-lbs-% ... FIU%5D.cfm
Again, speed of sound and all that. The fireball is huge (but ammo could have been spread).

That said, this one is undisputable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFAslOKhsU
35 tonnes.
Super slow-mo proves that the ammo was concentrated into one spot.
It takes more than five seconds for the blast wave to reach the camera. The explosion took place more than 1.7 km away. Hmm... yes, 35 tonnes.

The killer?
40,000 pounds (18.143 tonnes). Right after one second, you have the flash (it's amusing, it's like an energy weapon is fired at the spot). Right after two seconds, you can still see the edge of the blast wave on the left of the picture. The whitened inner radius conveniently represents half that range (170 meters then). Conclusion? The firbeall easily is around 100 meters wide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rInxeNBXS3o

Besides, how the heck can he look at an explosion that's going to rise and automatically pancake against the hull and get a yield from that by measuring the radius? Where did he get his number from in fact?

Besides, for a same yields, the more powerful the explosion, the farther the fireball could spread before atmospheric pressure gets the upper hand on it.
Nanochemicals may add to that.

So kiloton? Yeah, whatever.

This reminds of Halo 3's cutscene "Return to Sender", where a strafing run of two bombers blows up the hull of a large Covenant cruiser for a drifting Master Chief to slip through and drop the antimatter bomb be had borrowed from the Covenant (the bomb initially was placed by the Covenant on the Cairo station... don't ask why they didn't detonate it or simply fire it).
I think he was looking at a calculator from something like this:

http://www.nucleardarkness.org/nuclear/ ... simulator/

According to it, the height of a 1 kiloton's fireball would be 69 meters. He probably looked at it for a quick and dirty calc. To me though, the most important thing isn't the yield of the weapon. It's at his own claims, but a kiloton. My focus is on the claim that there was no shield interaction. I asked if he had evidence of visible shield interaction in the games.

He hasn't seemed to answer yet. I can't find any. Does anyone else know of any ship shield interaction? I mean, we see personal shields interact, but not ship grade shields.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:37 am

I recall shield glare, but I think it's in Halo Wars, when some Spartans ride those space bikes with shields and try to board a small Covenant ship to detonate it close to a big one.
Those bikes, having no hull, had shields instead (of course, what a wonderful design). And I think one of them gets hit, and the shield flares. But I don't recall seeing any shield glare in any cutscene. I know the equivalent of the EU in Halo has plenty of drawings and text descriptions of shields showing up upon impact, but I'd like to see that in some game at least.

His last post I've read yesterday contains several errors.
Let's see.
Nattuo wrote:Four of the impacts hit the solid purple 'armoured' areas of the ship, two of the impacts hit the areas dotted with pretty lights and complicated looking bits.
Actually, one of the two missiles which caused the burning leak hit in the slick hull surrounding the areas dotted with pretty lights. It's so fucking obvious on the picture he provides and the video itself. It's the same slick hull as on other parts of the same ship, and pretty much the logic behind the claim that it's armoured hull.

That impact just happened to be close enough to a region without slick plating to perhaps cause some leaks and had the supposedly unarmoured outer hull burst in flames.
Nattuo wrote:I used the immediate fireball(one can be seen in the screenshot I linked), which would not be influenced by reflection. Rather than maximum fireball airburst/groundburst, which would be influenced by reflecting from any potentially present ground.
I really have to wonder what he means by the initial fireball, because there's one thing clear: the screen capture he uses shows the expanding rings of doom. Those appear after the explosion's flash.
If you are fast enough, you can actually freeze the video on the explosion before it bursts into a large flash. At that point, you do have a more or less spherical fireball of some sort.
After the flash, you have the rings, and the fireball has grown into a cloud that cools down, and above all, it still expands as it cools down beyond the frame he chose to make his measurements.

Besides, how can he claim that the explosions he measured wouldn't be affected by reflection against the hull? That is so wrong. The fireball growth of a fireball is extremely fast at those yields. It's in the low kiloton scale, and perhaps totally ends some microseconds after detonation. Simply put, you won't be able to freeze the video before the fireball has already expanded and, thus, been reflected.
It's even more absurd since he used a screencap wherein the fireballs had obviously begun distorting themselves into mushroom clouds, at which point they'd be past reflection since eons, relatively speaking. And that's if you think the blast expands at the speed of sound, which is not exactly true, as it expands faster, and that despite the altitude of detonation (less air, slower speed of sound).
He should watch the video again, at timestamp 9:50.

Also, why use a nuclear calculator when the nuclear reaction will be different to some degree when the missiles have all reasons to be chemical missiles, namely Archers fired from the ground or something very close?
We want to look at chemical effects. A nuclear explosion dispatches its energy into different forms of energy, some of which will crucially lack in chemical reactions. That's also why we generally say that effects are comparable when the yields start to become enormous.
Nattuo wrote:Can I ask what your point is? The detonations you linked look almost identical to the ones we see the strike the Corvette. The only discernable difference being the altitude and ambient temperature(New Alexandria is surrounded by snowy fields). Which likely wouldn't have much influence on the detonation.

The black cloud doesn't persist for as long, but then it wouldn't anyways, being mounted in smaller, presumably lighter, case, and being influenced by the gigantic turbulence an 800 metre unaerodynamic brick travelling at 50-100 metres a second would create.
Trying to confuse the reader are we?
Since when the shape of the ship would explain the fact that the clouds turn totally invisible within two seconds after detonation?
We're still looking at chemically propelled missiles, most likely housing chemical warheads themselves. Not that it makes a big difference since even the nuclear explosions leave, well, you know, mushroom clouds.

So if I were him, I wouldn't spend too much time on measuring explosions which are bogus to begin with, and just accept that missiles, most likely chemical in nature and thus, due to their size, limited in payload, did puncture the hull of a corvette that's about 800 meters long, more or less.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mith » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:49 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I recall shield glare, but I think it's in Halo Wars, when some Spartans ride those space bikes with shields and try to board a small Covenant ship to detonate it close to a big one.
Those bikes, having no hull, had shields instead (of course, what a wonderful design). And I think one of them gets hit, and the shield flares. But I don't recall seeing any shield glare in any cutscene. I know the equivalent of the EU in Halo has plenty of drawings and text descriptions of shields showing up upon impact, but I'd like to see that in some game at least.
Halo Legends actually. And yes, we do see shield flares there both on the Boost Frames and when Chief blasted his way through one shields on his mini-MAC. Shield flares would be nice for capital ships, but I've never seen it in any of the highest canon.

I can understand his confusion--afterall, personal and theatre shields do show a flash, so why the ships don't is confusing. And yet if we don't assume that they have shields in some of these instances, we must then infer that the Covenant are either retarded or cannot shield themselves in atmosphere.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:10 pm

Yes, It's hard to imagine the people being stupid enough not to raise shields. In Halo 3, the debris that's carried by the Flooded High Charity that smacks into a +8 km long cruiser doesn't show any shield interaction, despite the most obvious hostile situation.
It's problematic, and we're tempted to look for a technical reason, indeed.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:20 pm

I have been looking into halo cos of that thread and it seems theres a argument about the MAC and SMAC regarding firepower, do we have material from both sides of the argument i can look at cos i cannot find much apart from vague referances from both sides who are less that reliable tbh.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:02 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:I have been looking into halo cos of that thread and it seems theres a argument about the MAC and SMAC regarding firepower, do we have material from both sides of the argument i can look at cos i cannot find much apart from vague referances from both sides who are less that reliable tbh.
What we have is a direct statement in Halo:Reach about Covenant ACS firepower, which in the best case is still in the terawatt range.

It's obviously going to beat UNSC firepower. While that means the 30 km/s speed of a 600 ton slug makes sense here, the same book (TFoR) which mentioned it also brought the 0.4 or 0.04 of c for the SMAC, which for obvious reasons completely sticks out.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:14 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:I have been looking into halo cos of that thread and it seems theres a argument about the MAC and SMAC regarding firepower, do we have material from both sides of the argument i can look at cos i cannot find much apart from vague referances from both sides who are less that reliable tbh.
What we have is a direct statement in Halo:Reach about Covenant ACS firepower, which in the best case is still in the terawatt range.

It's obviously going to beat UNSC firepower. While that means the 30 km/s speed of a 600 ton slug makes sense here, the same book (TFoR) which mentioned it also brought the 0.4 or 0.04 of c for the SMAC, which for obvious reasons completely sticks out.
It is quite entertaining actually as on the halopedia i looked it up and noticed it changed, so i looked at the edits and ROFLMAO if the stats aint changed on a almost friging daily basis from the 0.04 to 0.4 ect quotes and back again, and some times even more regularly, and god damn if a chappy called ricery aint one of the main culprits.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:47 pm

An edit war. I'm not surprised at all. That's just the logical result of pure nonsense.
It doesn't matter now. Even if gigatons for the SMAC was still silly beyond hope considering the level of technology of the UNSC (that's what you get with rushed merchandising - Nylund and his ships weighing thousands of tonnes only), and now it's all debunked because any MAC, no matter the caliber, that goes beyond the terajoule range will be extremely suspect.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Picard » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:50 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGBF0vmRl2w -1:58 - 2:00

Here you can see shields of Covenant battlecruiser glowing in all their failling glory.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mith » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:20 am

Picard wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGBF0vmRl2w -1:58 - 2:00

Here you can see shields of Covenant battlecruiser glowing in all their failling glory.
Just off topic, I have to say that's an incredibly pretentious trailer.

In any case, I fear that this proves nothing. An internal explosion will do a great deal of damage to the guts of the ship and we know nothing about the yield since it clearly can't be a nuclear weapon since then, why bother throwing on the inside?

Ah well.

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Re: Halo : Reach datapads

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:15 pm

Something I didn't notice at first.
Unless the backpack nuke rated at 30 MT, from TFoR, was an unique super weapon, that trailer would contradict it.
Notice how the Spartan struggles to through this bomb around, and obviously this bomb barely reaches a couple of kilotons once it goes off.

I'm really wondering how much propaganda the AIs have been spreading about the UNSC's real capabilities.

I can clearly see some advantage in making humanity think that demigods (Spartans) can carry on their back the firepower of nearly a thousand MACs. It gives a glimmer of hope that with enough luck and a single Spartan, one of them can kick the Covenant pretty hard.

That said, I don't think trailers are that much canon.

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