Organians, Metrons, and other super-races

[KirkSkyWalker]

Don't these MW races preclude the Empire from invading, if the Sith and Jedi are the baddest thing they've got?

And if we're going to pretend these races don't exist, where does that end? Are we to ignore every canonical fact that's inconvenient?

I think this is a fair question; why would they interfere between interstellar wars, but not interglalactic invaders?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Don't these MW races preclude the Empire from invading, if the Sith and Jedi are the baddest thing they've got?

And if we're going to pretend these races don't exist, where does that end? Are we to ignore every canonical fact that's inconvenient?

I think this is a fair question; why would they interfere between interstellar wars, but not interglalactic invaders?

In his own way (by throwing them in front of a cube in q-who) Q helped the federation by giving them the heads up about the borg and their style of adaptation ect, so it is likely he would do so again.

However i doubt he will allow himself to be used as a I-WIN button.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Don't these MW races preclude the Empire from invading, if the Sith and Jedi are the baddest thing they've got?

And if we're going to pretend these races don't exist, where does that end? Are we to ignore every canonical fact that's inconvenient?

I think this is a fair question; why would they interfere between interstellar wars, but not interglalactic invaders?

In his own way (by throwing them in front of a cube in q-who) Q helped the federation by giving them the heads up about the borg and their style of adaptation ect, so it is likely he would do so again.
However i doubt he will allow himself to be used as a I-WIN button.

Er, I think you'd better watch the episode "Q Who?"
There, Guinan said that the El-Aurians never warned the Federation about the Borg, because they could forese that Borg weren't originally going to encounter the Federation until they' d become peaceful. But this changed, because Q changed the timeline by basically informing the Borg of the Federation-- and he did it only because he was peeved at Picard for not giving him a job! (Picard was never too wise about not pissing off the wrong person...)

Likewise, in "All Good things," Q almost wipes humanity from the timeline. So Q's no friend of the Federation; however in "Encouter at Far Point Station," he puts the Federation on trial for being a "dangerous, savage child-race;" so it's a cinch what he'd do about the Sith Empire invading from outside the galaxy.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Er, I think you'd better watch the episode "Q Who?"
There, Guinan said that the El-Aurians never warned the Federation about the Borg, because they weren't originally going to encounter the Federation until they' d become peaceful.

Wrong, i suggest you watch it again.

She never mentions knowing the future or the borg becoming peaceful, she only mentions the federation developing a relationship with the borg when the federation is more advanced, she mentions that rifght now they would be seen mearly as raw material "as you are now" i believe are the words she uses.

As such she is obviously refering to the federation changing and not the borg.

But Q changed the timeline by basically informing the Borg of the Federation-- and he did it only because he was peeved at Picard for not giving him a job!

The borg had already attacked outposts along the federation/romulan border (season 1 episode 26 "the neutral zone") before the season 2 episode 16 "Q-who".

That was the rather feeble excuse he used but the conversation with guinan about them "moving too fast ect" clearly shows more is going on, Q did it in a very annoying (and entertaining) way but it was essentially a warning and a way to setup a avilable win scenario for the federation.

It was Q who as i said gave the E-D a taste of a cube and a example of how the borg operate, without that they would have not have been prepared in the slightest for borg style tactics, the borg would have not wanted picard as locutus and as such the method of eventually defeating the cube would have been lost.

It also got retcon'd in Enterprise that the borg got a signal off before Archer killed them, but the message would not arrive until the TNG era.

Likewise, in "All Good things," Q almost wipes humanity from the timeline.

Wrong again, the Q continuum set the overall scenario, it was Q himself who helped picard by jumping him through time so he could figure it out.

[Mike DiCenso]

It also got retcon'd in Enterprise that the borg got a signal off before Archer killed them, but the message would not arrive until the TNG era.

Kind of. "Regeneration" was intended as a sequel to ST:FC by showing what happened to the wreckage of the Borg sphere ship the E-E shot down in the now slightly altered timeline due to the Borg incursion.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

That was the rather feeble excuse he used but the conversation with guinan about them "moving too fast ect" clearly shows more is going on, Q did it in a very annoying (and entertaining) way but it was essentially a warning and a way to setup a avilable win scenario for the federation.

It was Q who as i said gave the E-D a taste of a cube and a example of how the borg operate, without that they would have not have been prepared in the slightest for borg style tactics, the borg would have not wanted picard as locutus and as such the method of eventually defeating the cube would have been lost.

Except that for an advanced being, Q acted in a childish manner. He never tells anyone what they're going to encounter, just gets all vauge and cryptic all without giving Picard or anyone any reason to trust him. He never tells them outright about the Borg, he just tosses them over there to experiance first hand and did nothing to help until Picard cried uncle. But did Q need to really do that? When Q kidnapped Picard earlier in the episode, he could have taken both Picard and the shuttlecraft out to System J-25 without ever having to risk the Enterprise and it's crew. He could also have done this in a way to allow Picard to observe the Borg assmilating the planet's peoples and technologies. Then Picard has a reason to believe Q's sincerity, and might even become an advocate for allowing Q to legitimately join Starfleet or at least become an important advisor. But no, Q throws a temper-tantrum and gets 18 people killed, and hastens the Borg's interest in the Federation well before they would have, or when they'd be more advanced and ready to deal with them.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

It also got retcon'd in Enterprise that the borg got a signal off before Archer killed them, but the message would not arrive until the TNG era.

Kind of. "Regeneration" was intended as a sequel to ST:FC by showing what happened to the wreckage of the Borg sphere ship the E-E shot down in the now slightly altered timeline due to the Borg incursion.
-Mike

Yea the message idea worked in well with the attacks on the outposts in "the nuetral zone", they were scouting missions checking out the area the message was from.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Except that for an advanced being, Q acted in a childish manner.

He is always doing than, from his "wee willie winkey" outfit in voyager to other extreme and rather petty human emotional traits he effects.

He never tells anyone what they're going to encounter, just gets all vauge and cryptic all without giving Picard or anyone any reason to trust him.

Why should he?.

He never tells them outright about the Borg, he just tosses them over there to experiance first hand and did nothing to help until Picard cried uncle.

Of course, he loves annoying and humbling picard and generally playing games with people.

But did Q need to really do that? When Q kidnapped Picard earlier in the episode, he could have taken both Picard and the shuttlecraft out to System J-25 without ever having to risk the Enterprise and it's crew.

How would that have shown that the flagship of the federation could be so easily overpowered or got the borg interested in picard?. He wanted to make a impression on picard and the federation in general by scaring the crap out of them.

The borg beating a shuttle?, yea real scary...

He could also have done this in a way to allow Picard to observe the Borg assmilating the planet's peoples and technologies. Then Picard has a reason to believe Q's sincerity, and might even become an advocate for allowing Q to legitimately join Starfleet or at least become an important advisor.

Technologies picard does not understand as well as his own so could not compare and get the true scare he would get from his own ship gettinfg PWNED?. Not only that but how would that make the borg want locutus?.

Q never wanted to join starfleet, it was just a excuse to give him the option to throw the E-D into the borgs path.

But no, Q throws a temper-tantrum and gets 18 people killed, and hastens the Borg's interest in the Federation well before they would have, or when they'd be more advanced and ready to deal with them.
-Mike

The borg were coming the outposts getting attacked proves that, without Q the federation would have never have known about the borg until the cube was near earth and would also have no clue about borg hive mind or its assimilation style of combat. Q's interfearance made the borg want picard as locutus and that ultimatly gave the federation the ability to defeat the cube in BOBW 1&2.

Without Q the E-D would have attacked the cube and got destroyed because of no knowledge/tactic from shelby about varying phasers that broke the tractor beam that held them was gained due to Q-who.

Even earlier in Earths history Quinn saved a ancestor of Rikers and during the hearing Q points out that without Quinn saving rikers ansestor and Riker not existing the Borg would have assimilated the federation.

[Mike DiCenso]

The borg were coming the outposts getting attacked proves that, without Q the federation would have never have known about the borg until the cube was near earth and would also have no clue about borg hive mind or its assimilation style of combat. Q's interfearance made the borg want picard as locutus and that ultimatly gave the federation the ability to defeat the cube in BOBW 1&2.

Without Q the E-D would have attacked the cube and got destroyed because of no knowledge/tactic from shelby about varying phasers that broke the tractor beam that held them was gained due to Q-who.

Not necessarily. If the J-25 Borg cube had decided to come wandering through the heart of the Federation, it would have encountered far more resistance from multiple starships. As we see in this video here, the E-D in it's first encouter with the cube did substantial damage to it on it's own with just phasers. A small fleet would have completely destroyed it before it could have adapted. Without the Borg have captured Picard and assimilated his knowledge, either the E-D's deflector dish weapon or the Wolf-359 fleet would have probably seriously damaged or destroyed it. So Q unnecessarily exposed the the Federation to the Borg as something they should be interested in going full up assimilation with. And he could still have helped Picard or the Federation learn about the Borg without the Borg ever knowing of it well in advance, and giving Starfleet more time to prepare new weapons and defense.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Not necessarily. If the J-25 Borg cube had decided to come wandering through the heart of the Federation, it would have encountered far more resistance from multiple starships.

As we see in this video here, the E-D in it's first encouter with the cube did substantial damage to it on it's own with just phasers. A small fleet would have completely destroyed it before it could have adapted.

Borg cubes do not wander, the cube would have been heading to earth and the federation would have sent one starship to face/investigate it at first or it would have found and assimilated one on its way to earth. This first starship it attacked/met would have either been at very best the equal to and likely weaker than the E-D during Q-WHO, it would have assimilated it as it would not have had Q's to help to break free.

The Federation may send several ships after that but unlikely a large fleet like wolf 359 as killing one starship is bad but hardly piss yourself scary effect like the Q-who episode did to the E-D crew, after a few more ownages they may get a fleet together like wolf 359 but by then the cube would have had plenty of experiance and fed captains assimilated....

Without the Borg have captured Picard and assimilated his knowledge, either the E-D's deflector dish weapon or the Wolf-359 fleet would have probably seriously damaged or destroyed it.

You cannot use tactics and knowledge gained from the Q-WHO engagment and used/developed by shelby and ultimatly used for the the deflector dish idea without giving credit to what happened in Q-WHO (and ultimatly Q).


Phasers would have been adapted against after the first ship was assimilated along with federation tactics due to the captain and crew being assimilated and the knowledge gained from the captain just like picard's was, so any fleet would have still got owned.

Without time to prepare because of Q-WHO, shelby would not have been ready or even know wtf a borg was, the adapting of phasers she used to break the E-D free and ultimatly the deflector dish idea would have never been even thought of as a tactic.