Starfleet Jedi

Basically, the UFP replaces the UNSC and its territories. The Covenant glasses one of their outer colonies and entices a war between the two of them. We'll assume all navigational data and such are similar for the Halo Universe. Who wins in an all out war?

Didn't we have a thread almost identical to this one already?

Yup, been there and done that two years ago. I don't think anything will really change, unless someone has some advance info from the latest Halo game that might alter the outcome.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Yup, been there and done that two years ago. I don't think anything will really change, unless someone has some advance info from the latest Halo game that might alter the outcome.
-Mike

Well, I was hoping for some sort of nibble...

I might as well give my analysis. Maybe people will disagree with some aspects and we can a debate running?

Well, as you all know, I'm a median sort a guy, so keep that in mind. I don't mind higher end feats, but I will assume those things apply to both sides.

Firepower

The advantage goes to Trek, though the disparity isn't as massive as with some other series (ie, Star Wars). Covenant ships seem to be taken out in mass by a near same number of 30 megaton nuclear mines. Assuming that the ships ran into a trap where they were surrounded, to the point that they got hit on say, four sides with the nukes, we have about a total capacity of 20 megatons. Assuming that there were some ships damaged and such, we'll up it to 30 megatons total. This matches pretty well against an enemy power that's used to launching chemical warheads in mass against them.

FTL
This seems to suggest to be on the Covenant side, though the one example I got was 330,000c, but it was from ricrery, so it was no doubt the largest figure he could find. Still, that's not too high for Trek to compete, so they can presumably not overpower the UFP via FTL.

The second problem with the FTL is that it requires navigation--something the Covenant really suck at. Ie, it'd be child's play for the UFP to have scanned the entirety of UNSC space. It took the Covenant two decades to bring the UNSC back down to Earth.

Fleets
The Covenant has a few thousand ships, maybe ten thousand ships at best. The UFP has 30,000 ships, so in a best case scenario, the UFP outnumbers them three to one.

Ground Forces

Grunts
Utterly worthless. Short and not really well trained--not to mention not very well motivated, they're below even the red shirts.

Jackals
Jackals are well armed and protected. They typically appear to be carrying sniper rifles and needlers and appear to be higher on the totem pole than Grunts. Their large shields are really what help them in terms of combat and it gives them an advantage over your averagely equipped Starfleet officer. However, as in Homefront, it was suggested that UFP ground forces do have personal shields...so maybe that's a different case.

On the downside, Jackals do have this strange habit of standing up in plain sight (albiet at some distance) when using their rifles...which is a rather poor combat method.

Elites
The Elites are pretty much worth five Starfleet officers. Better physical capabilities, probably better shielding (at least more common), and cloaking. Although they typically potray decent level of tactics, they seem to fail in some areas, such as Reach where we see them overrunning UNSC soldiers by charging. This might be a holdover from the fact that their shields supposedly absorb a fair bit, so they can be extra risky.

Brutes
Just as well equiped as Elites--after the promotion of course, but immensly stupid. Really stupid.

Hunters
Pain in the ass, more like small weapon platforms. Still, smart use of photon grenades would be able to take them out.

All in all, if Starfleet can establish space superiority over a planet, then they can overpower any ground base force via stunning by phasers.

The major difference is the level that both sides will go to for victory. The Covenant will glass entire planets. The UFP typically will restrain themselves, but it'd be intersting to see if the Covenant managed to push them over the edge and force them to destroy entire planets to get the Covenant to stop trying to kill them--similar to the US and Japan.

Wait, what? Starfleet ground troops having personal shields? Whatever implication there may have been, I'm pretty sure it can be called an outlier. If personal shields existed, we would see a lot more of them throughout Star Trek. Even if they do exist, they are rare to the point that a top-of-the-line ship like the Ent-E is completely devoid of them, and are not worth noting in a debate thread.

My two cents:
(Thought I'd try and branch out from my ususal he said/she said quip. While I beg indulgence please feel free to show me where I butchered logic, basic math, etc.)

1. Space combat

A. Firepower If we we assume the 30 megaton space mine(s) is an accurate example , and I freely admit my ignorance of the Haloverse, than we can safely conclude the following:

A-1

A phontinic torpedo from the 22nd century can leave a crator 3 kilomerts wide. Now I don't know the math or tensile properties to sciencetificly calculate the yield needed but I know the castle Bravo test left a 2 kilometer crator in its wake and it sits at around 15 megatons. Now I'm not saying the two events are perfectly identical, they are not, but it seems to me, which I agree could be a mistake, that a rough order of simulatarity would be required since both performed similar feats. Forwarding from this and accounting for the omnidirectional blast nature of torps you'd still be looking at low single digit megatons directed on target with should be more than enough to make the Covenant sit up and take notice.

A-2
The Rise calc{VOY},which has been done far better than I ever could attempt, has demostrated a wide range of figures for energy directed on target as opposed to energy wasted going off into space. That is if I understand it correctly but I disgress. Even on the lower end of the scale you can easily justify tens of megatons and just as easily reach yields, >30 megatons, that can one shot Covenant vessels much less firing salvos.

A-3

The Apocalypse Rising {DS9}quote from Damar suggesting a full spread of torpedoes would kill everyone within "hundreds of kilometers". Using Wong's nuke calculator, mostly because I'm lazy and it came up first in the search, you'd need roughly a gigaton to reach out to 200 kilometers. Dividing by twelve, an overestimation based on O'Brien's comment that such a number would fail to pierce the protective shield, we'd get roughly 83 megatons per torp and even after accounting for energy likely to be directed at target would be looking at needing four or five torps maximum to exceed the threshold.

B. Shields

B-1
In Changeling{TOS} the Enterprise is struck with the equivilent of 450 photon torpedoes before its shields are knocked out. Using the lower end estimate from A-1, 2.5 megs directed onto target, we'd be looking at about one thousand megatons just to drop a connie's shield. So we have that for a high end wanktastic example at least :).

B-2
On the other extreme we know a 22nd century Klingon BOP in the episode Expanse{ENT} which is two centuries older than mainline fed vessels and several wieght classes lower can withstand multiple full power torpedo strikes by diverting all power to his forward shields. So low end 5+ megatons shielding and likely higher but at the moment I can't recall how many shots Archer fired.

C. FTL

Here I'd give it to Haloverse since I'm likely an oddball on warp speed. For me Warp speed gives you low tens of thousands of c. Say 10-21 thousand at maximum warp with limited endurance. Why? I'm afraid I don't really have a valid argument it just "feels right to me" which I know is horrible. Yes I know there are higher examples and yes I know navigational data obviously plays a part in "cruise speed" but in my personal opinon there must be constraints on Warp speed to justify Gamma/Delta being "wild space" so to speak.


2. Ground combat

While a photon grenade may give them a surprise and a phaser rifle packs a far greater yield than the glorified AK the UNSC used the Conevant is going to own ground combat fielding large , if crude, combined arms. The Redshirts might leave a bloody nose but in any fair engagment I'd wager against them.

Actually, it was 12 Nuclear devices totalling 30 Megatons that took out 14 out of 16 shielded ships, so less then one maximum yield PT...

In ST 3, it took 2 shots from a B'Rel BoP to completely destroy a 40-50 meter ship, while the unshielded E-D in Generations took 20 hits from a similar vessel before a Warp Core failure endangered it...

Praeothmin wrote:Actually, it was 12 Nuclear devices totalling 30 Megatons that took out 14 out of 16 shielded ships, so less then one maximum yield PT...

No, it was 30 megatons each.

sonofccn wrote:A phontinic torpedo from the 22nd century can leave a crator 3 kilomerts wide. Now I don't know the math or tensile properties to sciencetificly calculate the yield needed but I know the castle Bravo test left a 2 kilometer crator in its wake and it sits at around 15 megatons. Now I'm not saying the two events are perfectly identical, they are not, but it seems to me, which I agree could be a mistake, that a rough order of simulatarity would be required since both performed similar feats. Forwarding from this and accounting for the omnidirectional blast nature of torps you'd still be looking at low single digit megatons directed on target with should be more than enough to make the Covenant sit up and take notice.

The gravity for an asteroid is going to be much, much less. We also don't know if that's the standard yield. The suggestion was going between the two extremes.

A-2
The Rise calc{VOY},which has been done far better than I ever could attempt, has demostrated a wide range of figures for energy directed on target as opposed to energy wasted going off into space. That is if I understand it correctly but I disgress. Even on the lower end of the scale you can easily justify tens of megatons and just as easily reach yields, >30 megatons, that can one shot Covenant vessels much less firing salvos.

A-3

Actually, about only a sixth of that energy would actually go into the cruiser, give or take based on the angle of the impact. So we're talking about something closer to say, 10 megatons for a 62 megaton bomb.

The Apocalypse Rising {DS9}quote from Damar suggesting a full spread of torpedoes would kill everyone within "hundreds of kilometers". Using Wong's nuke calculator, mostly because I'm lazy and it came up first in the search, you'd need roughly a gigaton to reach out to 200 kilometers. Dividing by twelve, an overestimation based on O'Brien's comment that such a number would fail to pierce the protective shield, we'd get roughly 83 megatons per torp and even after accounting for energy likely to be directed at target would be looking at needing four or five torps maximum to exceed the threshold.

B. Shields

B-1

Actually, they'd logically be targeting the shield and the installation...not the area. It's more likely that it's closer to the gigaton range.

In Changeling{TOS} the Enterprise is struck with the equivilent of 450 photon torpedoes before its shields are knocked out. Using the lower end estimate from A-1, 2.5 megs directed onto target, we'd be looking at about one thousand megatons just to drop a connie's shield. So we have that for a high end wanktastic example at least :).

Err...I highly doubt that was right. Maybe he might have meant photonic torpedoes or an older variant--in which case, it would make more sense.

B-2
On the other extreme we know a 22nd century Klingon BOP in the episode Expanse{ENT} which is two centuries older than mainline fed vessels and several wieght classes lower can withstand multiple full power torpedo strikes by diverting all power to his forward shields. So low end 5+ megatons shielding and likely higher but at the moment I can't recall how many shots Archer fired.

C. FTL

I actually did some preliminary calculations based on Voyager's fight with a Klingon BoP. Assuming they used a standard yield torpedo (25 isotons = 62 megatons) we'd get probably 10 megatons worth of shielding. Scaling this down by assuming that it requires 2-4 megatons to take out the ship from its own time, we'd get 15-30 megaton nukes. Now we saw the Defiant easily bitch slap around the 22nd century ships with handful of torpedoes (albiet upgraded).

Interestingly enough, if you want to get the yield for the photonic torpedoes, it's a bit rough, but possible to get a ballpark guess. Assuming that the phase cannons are just as powerful as the spatial torpedoes, we get 500 GJs multiplied by six for 3,000 GJs or about a 7.18 kiloton nuke. This would be a weapon designed to be used against other ships of similar power. Given that in Trek, the standard for weapons seems to be that the weapons are roughly 1/8th the maximum yield is 57.44 kilotons.

That means, given that photonic torpedoes are 50x stronger, that suggests that photonic torpedoes are 359 kilotons. Assuming that the standard yield and the maximum yield is eight times greater than the yield used, we get a max yield of 2,872 kilotons.

Alright, we know that the Klingon BoP in the Expanse managed to absorb two low yield torpedoes (probably the standard yield...12.5% is fairly low-yield) and a torpedo at 50%. Using the energy for about a sixth of the yield, we'd get a total of 439 for the entirety of the Klingons forward shielding (roughly 1.84 TJs).

2. Ground combat

While a photon grenade may give them a surprise and a phaser rifle packs a far greater yield than the glorified AK the UNSC used the Conevant is going to own ground combat fielding large , if crude, combined arms. The Redshirts might leave a bloody nose but in any fair engagment I'd wager against them.

[/quote]

The UFP is indeed on the lower end for the ground combat. However, I don't think it'll turn the tide of the war.

Mith wrote:The gravity for an asteroid is going to be much, much less.

Any help in more properly narrowing the yield would of course be apreciated.

We also don't know if that's the standard yield. The suggestion was going between the two extremes.

I presume its a full "standard" load such as what Archer ordered fired later. It hardly would be worth commenting if that was a theoretical yield obtained by gutting out internal systems and filling it to the brim with anti-matter.

Mith wrote:Actually, about only a sixth of that energy would actually go into the cruiser, give or take based on the angle of the impact. So we're talking about something closer to say, 10 megatons for a 62 megaton bomb.

But, and I apologize if I'm being particularly dense, is not the Rise calc and various other asteriod calcs energy on target ie the one/sixth or whatever of the rapidly expanding dense energy region which colided with the target?

Mith wrote:Actually, they'd logically be targeting the shield and the installation...not the area. It's more likely that it's closer to the gigaton range.

Well I chose setting humans on fire, more or less, both because its what the calculator was set for, I'm lazy, and because I assumed it would give me a lower yield rather than slagging structures at the 200 Kilometer mark.

Mith wrote:Err...I highly doubt that was right. Maybe he might have meant photonic torpedoes or an older variant--in which case, it would make more sense.

No Spock was fairly specific in his remark.

Mr. Spock wrote:Our shields absorbed energy equivalent to ninety of our photon torpedoes.

The ship was hit with five of these bolts before the shields failed. It is a tad preposterious, by this an Ent-A variant could empty its entire payload without harming the original 1701, but cannon.

Mith wrote:Assuming they used a standard yield torpedo (25 isotons = 62 megatons)...Given that in Trek, the standard for weapons seems to be that the weapons are roughly 1/8th the maximum

If I may ask where is this data coming from?

Mith wrote:That means, given that photonic torpedoes are 50x stronger, that suggests that photonic torpedoes are 359 kilotons

Where is it stated that photonic torpedoes are 50x stronger than spatial torps? The only known figure for firepower actually stated IIRC is as follows

Expanse wrote:REED: Photonic torpedoes. Their range is over fifty times greater than our conventional torpedoes, and they have a variable yield. They can knock the comm. array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull or they can put a three kilometre crater into an asteroid.
TUCKER: How long is it going to take to reconfigure the tubes?
REED: We've got three teams working on it. They promise me it'll be done before we leave Spacedock, but I've got to start integrating them into the power grid.
TUCKER: Let's go.

Mith wrote:Using the energy for about a sixth of the yield, we'd get a total of 439 for the entirety of the Klingons forward shielding (roughly 1.84 TJs).

Wouldn't this figure mean that the NX's dual forward phase cannons, rated at 500 GJs apiece, which fire a concretrated and narrow beam risk slicing through a 22nd BOP's shield in a single go? Much less one could argue that firepower jumped up to 10 TJs following what they learned in Silent Enemy.

sonofccn wrote:Any help in more properly narrowing the yield would of course be apreciated.

It's honestly impossible because aside from the fact that it's more than a couple of km, it could be anything.

I presume its a full "standard" load such as what Archer ordered fired later. It hardly would be worth commenting if that was a theoretical yield obtained by gutting out internal systems and filling it to the brim with anti-matter.

When Reed is talking about it, I was presuming he was giving a low-high end yield. Granted, given how often Enterprise got slapped around, they might just fire on higher yields most of the time...

Mith wrote:But, and I apologize if I'm being particularly dense, is not the Rise calc and various other asteriod calcs energy on target ie the one/sixth or whatever of the rapidly expanding dense energy region which colided with the target?

Yes it. Vivftp had assumed a fully buried nuke as per Wong's calculator. The actual yield is roughly six times that. It'd be at roughly 270 megatons going with his 45 megaton yield.

Well I chose setting humans on fire, more or less, both because its what the calculator was set for, I'm lazy, and because I assumed it would give me a lower yield rather than slagging structures at the 200 Kilometer mark.

Granted, but it makes less sense to bombard a shielded installation and then spread it out over hundreds of km.

Mith wrote:No Spock was fairly specific in his remark.

Granted...but it's still absolute hogwash. Even assuming the yields I got, it's in the hundreds of weapons needed, not 400+. Just toss it in the outlier bin.

If I may ask where is this data coming from?

TMs. I use them to identify the meaning of isoton since the writers used it in Trek. Ie, Voyager's torpedoes have a max yield of 496 megatons--and assuming that the torpedo in that one episode where some aliens claimed it to be 25 isotons is standard, it's 62 megatons. Which fits better overall with how both DS9 and VOY used isotons.

Where is it stated that photonic torpedoes are 50x stronger than spatial torps? The only known figure for firepower actually stated IIRC is as follows

*smacks forehead*

Crap! It was range, not yield? Crap I'm an idiot!


[/quote]Wouldn't this figure mean that the NX's dual forward phase cannons, rated at 500 GJs, which fire a concretrated and narrow beam risk slicing through a 22nd BOP's shield in a single go? Much less one could argue that firepower jumped up to 10 TJs following what they learned in Silent Enemy.[/quote]

It was based on using the spatial torpedoes, not the photonic ones. Although, that could be a good benchmark...

Mith wrote:Yes it. Vivftp had assumed a fully buried nuke as per Wong's calculator. The actual yield is roughly six times that. It'd be at roughly 270 megatons going with his 45 megaton yield.

Okay. Sorry to need you to hold my hand I just don't want to make a mistake or misunderstand.

Granted, but it makes less sense to bombard a shielded installation and then spread it out over hundreds of km.

Its the quote.

Damar wrote:Personally, I think we'd be better
off launching an orbital assault
on Gowron's Command Center. A
full spread of photon torpedoes
would take care of him, the
Klingon High Command and everyone
else within a few hundred
kilometers.

Blasting the command center would take out everyone within a hundred kilometer radius as collaterial.

Granted...but it's still absolute hogwash. Even assuming the yields I got, it's in the hundreds of weapons needed, not 400+. Just toss it in the outlier bin.

I wasn't being completly serious when I suggested it :).

*smacks forehead*

Crap! It was range, not yield? Crap I'm an idiot!

Relax. I've made far worse mistakes. A lot worse like confusing meter with kilometer.

It was based on using the spatial torpedoes, not the photonic ones. Although, that could be a good benchmark...

Unfortantly I don't think we ever got any basis of comparison with the old spaitials save they were horribly underpowered by any moderate power let alone Klingons or Andorians. Might be a good idea to rewatch the battle scenes to get a fresh gauge on what happened and how...

sonofccn wrote:Okay. Sorry to need you to hold my hand I just don't want to make a mistake or misunderstand.

No, it's no problem. It's more of a brain bug. And to be honest, the 1/6th is lowballing it, since more than likely you're going to get an angle better than that. You could easily get 15-20 megatons of a 62 megaton bomb against a starship. It just depends on the angle.

Blasting the command center would take out everyone within a hundred kilometer radius as collaterial.

Actually, that's a FEW hundred thousand kilometers. 200,000 is the lower end, 9,000 being the higher end. Assuming they center the torpedoes on the target (hence, the collateral), we're talking single digit gigatons at the lowest.

Relax. I've made far worse mistakes. A lot worse like confusing meter with kilometer.

Meh, no big deal. Especially if you're used to miles.

Unfortantly I don't think we ever got any basis of comparison with the old spaitials save they were horribly underpowered by any moderate power let alone Klingons or Andorians. Might be a good idea to rewatch the battle scenes to get a fresh gauge on what happened and how...

Well, looking at the actual warhead, it looks like they might be able to get a quarter of an ounce of fusion matter in there. Working that out, we'd get roughly 2.6875 megatons for a spatial torpedo at maximum yield. Assuming maybe they somehow got an ounce into it, it's 10.75 megatons, but I doubt it.

A pity they got rid of them as the main weapons in the first bloody season.

Mith wrote:

Praeothmin wrote:Actually, it was 12 Nuclear devices totalling 30 Megatons that took out 14 out of 16 shielded ships, so less then one maximum yield PT...

No, it was 30 megatons each.

You sure about that?
Do you have the book's passage?
I seem to remember it was a total of 30MT... O_O