Feds+Imps vs Imperium of Man

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

There are also the troops in the base on Endor, though the black suit might just be indicative of naval officers or personnel. I guess I always figured the Empire had two main branches, the Navy and the Army. The Army also functions as a marine corps and is comprised of stormtroopers and vehicle operators. I suggest that personnel inside the Endor bunker are from the Navy because of the uniforms and the fact that the bunker is attached to the Death Star which is most certainly a naval operation.

It's mostly that whenever we see imperial troops they are stormtroopers, except on Endor where the majority of the troops are still stormtroopers.

[Gniops]

Space Superiority - Ship for ship, the Federation and the Empire have better starships than the Imperium.

I'm assuming "better" particularly for the federation refers to some aesthetic concept, as opposed to being a superior weapon of war. The mainstay of the Imperial Navy typically outmasses and outguns even the bruisers of the Alpha quadrent like the Scimitar or Borg cubes.

each weapon is probably comparable to the weapons of the Federation and the Empire. And while the Imperium ships

Individual weaponry ranges from guns bigger than some Federation ships, to point defence grids, you'll have to be a touch more specific than that ;)

And while the Imperium ships are large and strong, they are built as if they were fighting during the age of the sail in space. T

Age of sail in space is a reasonable descriptive term to use, but a little deceiving. A better idea would be modern naval warfare in space, with aspects of submarine combat and WW2 battleship duels thrown in.

They are designed to perform massive broadsides against their enemies Space, however, is a 360 degree battlezone with up, down, left, right, forward, and backwards. While they do have some weapons facing forward and torpedoes

Typically due to the 2-dimensional nature of the board game, ventral weapon mounts are neglected. various novels describe dorsal armaments being duplicated ventrally i.e. a Cruiser possesses a dorsal lance array, it also possesses a ventral array.

Plus of course, Empire and Federation vessels have their own fire arc limitations for main weaponry, as you've pointed out, one of the benefits of space is that its a 3 dimensional medium, moving the ship to bring guns to bear is hardly a revolutionary concept, and certainly not beyond your average captain.

however, is a 360 degree battlezone with up, down, left, right, forward, and backwards. While they do have some weapons facing forward and torpedoes, many of their torpedoes are designed to carry boarders, if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure what torpedoes being equipped for boarders has to do with it being a 3D battlespace, but yes, "boarding torpedoes" are usually fired out of torpedo tubes.

Typically marines deploy by this method, or Corvus assault pods, if they are attempting to board an enemy space station or vessel. (that or teleportation).

The usual anti-capital ship torpedos are 30 meters in length, and either a single heavy warhead, or multiple smaller warheads, used to saturate the traditionally hefty point defence of 40k starships.

Torpedoes are heavily armoured, requiring sustained heavy weapons fire from starfighters, and can actually ram through oncoming fighters if they accidentally stray into their path.

The Empire and Federation ships can cover their firing arcs quickly and well, with the Federation doing it the best.

As can the Imperium, multiple heavy weapons arrays, with powerful C-speed beam weapons, and weaponry with a large radius for damaging effects.

And, at least for the Federation, you have the sublight speed and maneuverability advantages of Federation starships

For the Federation at least, very good for running away! A battle between the enterprise and an Imperial cruiser would probably go a little like the Nemesis battle, except for the deeply stupid actions of Shinzon at the end, and the fact that theres probably more armour on the front of an Imperial cruiser than the mass of the Scimitar.

Empire vessels have never particularly impressed me their maneuverability, then again, the deeply stupid ramming sequence in ESB could be attributed to the Captains being on a tea-break.

Ground Combat - In ranged combat, the Federation and the Empire have missile launchers, mortars, which can launch kiloton level explosives

Personally I feel that attributing the capabilities of TOS federation to those of TNG is a flawed concept, as there is no real consistent or reliable technological standard, and a massive capability gap between the two eras when comparing high end achievements.

That said, I also don't think the photon grenade incident can be reliably calced to display much of anything.


Regardless, in Ranged combat the Imperial guard/Imperium can deploy things to equal pretty much anything its two opponents can throw, although I'd say the woefully ill equipped Feds would be better off letting the Imps take the brunt of the Imperiums warmachine.

As both sides (although not so much the Feddies to my knowledge) can fire shite from orbit, going on about yields becomes moot, Orbital supremacy = effective victory for most scenarios.

However, typically the Imperial guards artillery ranges from NBC warheads carried by ICBMs to squad level mortars, they certainly don't lack for high explosives! They also make use of theater shields against artillery, and mobile armoured command vehicles also equipped with heavy shielding.

and Juggernaut tanks that can launch volley after volley of missiles. These missiles will do a number on the Imperium

Um, only in the same fashion anti-armour missiles would "do a number" on anything I suspect.

The Federation also can employ personal forcefields, personal shield generators, and use tricorders to pinpoint enemy movemen

I suspect the number of guard personel equipped with personal forcefields probably exceeds the population of Trek earth ;)

Typically it doesn't appear that personal shields are a staple of Trek ground combat, as in the admittedly few instances we see feddy ground troops in action, and whenever any of the other ground troops are employed, most of whom have general technological parity as far as military tech goes, we don't see them either.

The powerful energy weapons of the standard Guard bloke should be sufficient anyway.

Guard routinely deploy mobile sensor platforms, employ handheld, vehicle and drone mounted sensors, as well as psychic tracking of enemy forces.

I imagine they are rather more focussed in their use, an auspex is more likely to detect the heartbeat of a stealth cloaked JemHadar than the Pixie Particles his cloak might be producing is what I'm saying here.

*shrug* Apples and Oranges.

Also, the Imperial Guard's main method of fighting is using WW2 tactics, and human wave tactics, so the Federation and the Empire have them beat there

The Imperial guards "main method of fighting" is entirely dependant on the scenario, and how the guard in question are equipped.

Hence painting the guard with a doctrinal colour of " WW2 across its entirety" is fairly silly, I'm sure I would have recalled VTOL gunship air cavalry in my history studies after all.

They fight as they need to fight, but typically encircling and reducing fortified positions with artillery if they can't crack them immediately and need to move on, making heavy use of long range firepower and armoured spearheads to destroy opposing formations, etc etc.

Imperial guard in assault are more reminiscent of proposed Soviet union tactics against NATO during the Cold War, Heavy use of large formations heavy battle tanks and assault guns as armoured spearheads, followed by masses of Mechanised infantry supported by copious cross service support from airforce and in the Guard case Imperial navy and Titan fire.

"human wave " tactics are used, when there is no option, or you're a bunch of drugged up penal legion guys. To say its a mainstay of Guard doctrine is frankly absurd.

Space Marines, however, will be a problem since it seems as if only phasers at their higher settings, and the heavier blaster rifles will be able to penetrate Space Marine armor.

Space marines are problem not just because of their equipment, typically marine forces go after command and control, vital military and industrial targets, usually with simultaneous and coordinated strikes.

They also possess extremely capable fleet assets, a Battlebarge is 5 miles of armoured death, BBs equipped for anti-shipping work can vapourise shielded 1000 meter long starships with a single understrength shot from their main forward gun array !

The Space Marine Land Raider and Land Raider Crusaders will be trouble for the ground forces of the Federation and the Empire.

As capable as these tanks are, I suspect that the millions of Leman Russ battle tanks, or the Titan Legions might be more problematic.

Short of orbital bombardment, I don't think the Feddies actually HAVE anything that could scratch a battle titan, much less an Ordinatus or Leviathan.

Close Combat - This is another place where the Imperium excels in, relative to Starfleet and the Galactic Empire. With the exceptions of Worf, Darth Vader, and maybe Palpatine (depending on when the invasion takes place in the SW timeline)

Close combat isn't exactly important, although I'd agree that the average Imperial guardmen would effortless defeat his average opponent from both universes military forces in such a situation, simply because he's got a better weapon, a bayonet with some guts behind it.

Hell, I'd back the best of the Imperial guard against the best of the Feddy or Empires conventional services in a hand to hand competition, as the Guard champion is probably a heavy G worlder like a Catachan, or a Tank dragging Ogryn!

Vader and Palpatine are nice, to equal them in hand to hand, including their extensive telekinetic abilities would probably require either a culexus assassin, a significantly augmetic Arch-magos or a space marine Librarian.

Psykers - They're a wild card here since we don't know how the Warp will affect the Federation and Imperial humans. If it doesn't affect their minds since their souls aren't connected to the Warp, I could see mental attacks not being very useful,

Simple telepathic contact would not require that someone have a warp presence I'd think, as a "warp soul" is emotional and idealogical concepts, not intellect unless you are more powerful than most. Typically Imperial psykers can read minds, etc, which is not information you'd get from the "soul" but the physical memory storage of someone, but if we are assuming that the warp isn't functional in this scenario, I'd have to question subspace or similar universal trek and Wars constants existing ;)

Assuming the physics are generally going to work together is the only way to actually have a discussion.

but any psyker lightning would still kill. And the lack of psykers would hurt the Federation if the Imperium started bringing sanctioned psykers and Space Marine Librarians into the fight.

Again, like close combat, its not really an issue in intergalactic warfare, although the prescient and intelligence gathering abilities of Imperial Psykers are often a little more practical than feddy or Imperial mystical capabilities.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I'm assuming "better" particularly for the federation refers to some aesthetic concept, as opposed to being a superior weapon of war. The mainstay of the Imperial Navy typically outmasses and outguns even the bruisers of the Alpha quadrent like the Scimitar or Borg cubes.

Exactly how much firepower does a typical Imperium cruiser put out at what rate? I'm curious, because I haven't yet managed to dig up anything really useful from the BFG stuff itself. The scale of the reactors suggests they could have rather more firepower, but what I've commonly heard cited is more on the scale of 610 gigatons multiplied by a small integer per five minutes.

The primary advantage cited so far in this thread has been in terms of maneuverability, rates of fire, and fire control, IIRC.

Note for the record that an Imperial cruiser is substantially smaller than a Borg cube or [the current favored 17-19 km scaling of] a Super Star Destroyer; even generally brick-shaped, a 3 km long Imperium cruiser is about an order of magnitude smaller than a 3x3x3 km cube. Even an 8 km long ship is likely to only have around 2-3x the cubage of a tactical cube. (The Scimitar, for reference, is much smaller, as are ISDs).

In general, we're talking capital ships on the scale of Federation starbases or large Empire ships.

Plus of course, Empire and Federation vessels have their own fire arc limitations for main weaponry, as you've pointed out, one of the benefits of space is that its a 3 dimensional medium, moving the ship to bring guns to bear is hardly a revolutionary concept, and certainly not beyond your average captain.

TNG Federation designs tend to have remarkably well-engineered firing arcs - meaning that the vessel never has to turn to bring weapons to bear.

As can the Imperium, multiple heavy weapons arrays, with powerful C-speed beam weapons, and weaponry with a large radius for damaging effects.

Proximity effects are also used by the Federation (large proximity torpedo detonations) as well as the Empire (small flak bursts). Both presumably have access to large beam weapons, but there's a big difference between the speed with which the beam travels, and the speed with which the weapon may be aimed and fired at an arbitrary moving target. The latter is a particular strength of phaser banks, although the former would appear to be (if we take the VFX literally) a weakness of turbolasers.

For the Federation at least, very good for running away! A battle between the enterprise and an Imperial cruiser would probably go a little like the Nemesis battle, except for the deeply stupid actions of Shinzon at the end, and the fact that theres probably more armour on the front of an Imperial cruiser than the mass of the Scimitar.

Empire vessels have never particularly impressed me their maneuverability, then again, the deeply stupid ramming sequence in ESB could be attributed to the Captains being on a tea-break.

We do have some decent figures for Star Wars accelerations. While the ISD may not have the sublight tactical mobility of a GCS, it's not half bad - possibly around 50g or so.

As capable as these tanks are, I suspect that the millions of Leman Russ battle tanks, or the Titan Legions might be more problematic.

Short of orbital bombardment, I don't think the Feddies actually HAVE anything that could scratch a battle titan, much less an Ordinatus or Leviathan.

Never underestimate the capability of an antimatter-using society to blow things up, I say - though the Federation does seem to think that close orbital support is a good idea.

For that matter, SPHA-Ts and similar heavy Star Wars weapons may have enough firepower to threaten them, and just as the Federation has controlled antimatter detonations available, the Empire can build remarkably compact and efficient thermonuclear devices.

[sonofccn]

Welcome Gniops

I'm assuming "better" particularly for the federation refers to some aesthetic concept, as opposed to being a superior weapon of war

No, better as in a better weapon of war design(atleast to some) then the Imperium's floating gun platform. Evading the bulk of enemy fire has it's merits.

Plus of course, Empire and Federation vessels have their own fire arc limitations for main weaponry

While I guess it depends on what you call mian weapons, but the phasers due have something like 360 degree firing arc which is pretty good.

As can the Imperium, multiple heavy weapons arrays,

Which only a fraction will be able to be employed at any given time presumbly and were designed to hit giant floating targets.

That said, I also don't think the photon grenade incident can be reliably calced to display much of anything.

The distance it was a danger to it's firing crew indicates it packs a pretty nice punch for something of it's size.

although I'd say the woefully ill equipped Feds would be better off letting the Imps take the brunt of the Imperiums warmachine.

As far as infantry goes the feds as equiped as any other combatent if not more so. Now if we only had a tank. :)

As both sides (although not so much the Feddies to my knowledge) can fire shite from orbit

"A piece of the action" (TOS)
Shows a starship has pintpoint accuraccy with it's phasers. So yes the feds can hit stuff from orbit.

The powerful energy weapons of the standard Guard bloke should be sufficient anyway.

You mean a lasgun?

Guard routinely deploy mobile sensor platforms, employ handheld, vehicle and drone mounted sensors, as well as psychic tracking of enemy forces.

All of which, except the physic, at best puts them at equal footing with thier enemy. Of course the Federation does have races with similar detection ablities like say a betazoid.

Short of orbital bombardment, I don't think the Feddies actually HAVE anything that could scratch a battle titan, much less an Ordinatus or Leviathan.

As long as the thing isn't shielded, beaming in explosives should be a viable option.

[Gniops]

Exactly how much firepower does a typical Imperium cruiser put out at what rate?

Typically capital ships possess stellar levels of power generation, tactical orbital bombardment has been in the megatons from single strikes, strategic is usually along the line of erasing pertinent continental structures. Battleship broadsides are described as scorching continents off planets in BFG as I recall.

A Strike cruisers bombardment cannon have been estimated to strike with 2.129e21 J of KE, in BFG these weapons are roughly equivalent to short range lance batteries. They fire in volleys, probably a dozen in a volley. I suspect they probably fire smaller volleys for starship combat, due to increased max velocity of the rounds required for penetrating shields and armour.

Point defense is more along the lines of kilo-megaton range heavy turreted weaponry, then a gridwork of heavy caliber explosive projectiles, GW lasers etc.

A sixkg warhead is enough to vapourise 100m spheres out of structural sections of Spacehulks, which is anything from high kilotons to megatons of firepower. Typically they fire multi-tonne armour penetrating explosive projectiles.

but what I've commonly heard cited is more on the scale of 610 gigatons multiplied by a small integer per five minutes.

Thats derived from a torpedo filled with nuclear sub-munitions, typical heavy torpedos use "plasma reactions" supercompressed "plasma fuel" described as a thousand times more energetic than nuclear fuel.

Note for the record that an Imperial cruiser is substantially smaller than a Borg cube

Yeah, I added the borg cube in an earlier sentence, forgot to clarify it when I added the Scimitar ;P

TNG Federation designs tend to have remarkably well-engineered firing arcs - meaning that the vessel never has to turn to bring weapons to bear.

Strictly speaking, its a rare Imperial navy vessel that has to turn to bring weapons to bear, note that attacking an Imperial vessel from directly behind is probably a bad idea, as any Man-Kzin wars fan might agree!

Proximity effects are also used by the Federation (large proximity torpedo detonations) as well as the Empire (small flak bursts).

You mean you don't believe in the massless pixie beam theory of turbolasers ? say it isn't so !

Proximity effects for Imperial anti-starfighter weaponry range in hundreds to a thousand meters, Nova cannons produce explosions the size of small moons.

, but there's a big difference between the speed with which the beam travels,

Main weaponry can be used against Starfighters, Lances in particular are described as incinerating entire flights of Orkish bombers.

Their accuracy will increase against emitting targets at range, which can't take advantage of angular velocity issues quite as well. I'd expect Feddy ships probably would be best avoiding engaging Imperial vessels at all.

We do have some decent figures for Star Wars accelerations. While the ISD may not have the sublight tactical mobility of a GCS, it's not half bad - possibly around 50g or so.

Sabbat Martyr features Imperial heavy frigates (roughly 2km,) covering 9AU in about an hour and a half IIRC, from a station keeping orbit, this translates to potential accelerations of thousands of gees a least if I'm recalling the calc correctly.

Typically movement is slower in heavy combat and general travel, probably to maintain power to weaponry and shielding, and to maintain fuel. Engagements can last for days on end, or end in a blink of an eye.

Never underestimate the capability of an antimatter-using society to blow things up, I say - though the Federation does seem to think that close orbital support is a good idea.

For that matter, SPHA-Ts and similar heavy Star Wars weapons may have enough firepower to threaten them, and just as the Federation has controlled antimatter detonations available, the Empire can build remarkably compact and efficient thermonuclear devices.

Once you start deploying weaponry on that scale, you've generally got orbital control, or you've won because you've just nuked everybody.

I doubt a SPHAT could manage to draw a bead on any titan with their general agility, they really should have gone with the repulsors or legs for those babies.

Ordinati are like SPHATs on crack mind, a Gehenna class burned a hole through a planetary crust on 80% power.

While I guess it depends on what you call mian weapons, but the phasers due have something like 360 degree firing arc which is pretty good.

Like you said, space is 3d ;)

Which only a fraction will be able to be employed at any given time presumbly and were designed to hit giant floating targets.

Technically an Imperial vessel can fire all its weaponry at once, just not at the same target.

Your average Federation ship is in exactly the same situation as far as I can tell, its individual arrays do not possess complete coverage, so it uses multiple emplacements.

Imperial Ships are hardly "floating targets" either, Federation vessels routinely engage at point blank visual range with other Trek vessels, an Imperial vessel tends not too. Its time to start shitting yourself if a Nid vessel gets within 5000 meters, ranges are thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers for effective fire from Imperial vessels. Eldar can ambush you with C-speed beams from multi-lightsecond ranges if they get the chance.

The distance it was a danger to it's firing crew indicates it packs a pretty nice punch for something of it's size.

I'm not sure it packs the multi-kiloton yield touted for it, and again, I wouldn't venture to compare TOS and TNG capabilities, technologically they just don't mesh.

As far as infantry goes the feds as equiped as any other combatent if not more so. Now if we only had a tank. :)

Federation infantry from what I've seen is not practically equipped for heavy combat of any duration. Some body armour would be a good idea for a start, and some ergonomically designed weaponry, NBC protection etc.

"A piece of the action" (TOS)
Shows a starship has pintpoint accuraccy with it's phasers. So yes the feds can hit stuff from orbit.

Mmm, I'm sure there are incidences of TNG tactical bombardment, like I said, TOS is to me wildly inconsistent with later technology.

You mean a lasgun?

Yep.

All of which, except the physic, at best puts them at equal footing with thier enemy. Of course the Federation does have races with similar detection ablities like say a betazoid.

Yes well, that was basically what I was saying ;)

I do doubt however that Betazoids are that commonly employed for psychic tracking in military combat, or hooked into targetting computers and their ilk ;)

As long as the thing isn't shielded, beaming in explosives should be a viable option.

Heavily shielded, heavily armoured with dense and exotic conducting armour materials, and possessing extremely powerful power generation.

The bane of any Trek transporter device. Hell, heavy Imperial artillery causes electromagnetic comms disruption. Probably enough to nerf explosives teleportation, never mind jamming, even if its Feddy doctrine to employ such a doctrine, which I havent' seen much evidence of.

[sonofccn]

Like you said, space is 3d ;)

Yeah and a signle phaser array can fire front,back,left,right and up. In the end it does it's job more effectively then a solid gun emplacment.

Technically an Imperial vessel can fire all its weaponry at once, just not at the same target.

Which is what I said. Against a fast agile foe, only a smattering of thier weapons could be brought to bear.

Your average Federation ship is in exactly the same situation as far as I can tell, its individual arrays do not possess complete coverage, so it uses multiple emplacements.

AN array has far,far better coverage, and could bring to bear most if not all of them against the imperial ship.

Imperial Ships are hardly "floating targets"

I was refering to thier lack of mobility and prefernce to slug it out via brute force. Your accuracy needed to hit a 3-8 kilometer warship sitting releatvily still is far less then hitting a ship less then 1 kilometer enganging evasive actions.

Federation vessels routinely engage at point blank visual range with other Trek vessels, an Imperial vessel tends not too.

True it has been done, but it's not the extent of thier range.

ranges are thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers for effective fire from Imperial vessels.

24th century starship can bullseye starships in the 200,000km range ref. "the Wounded" (TNG).

I'm not sure it packs the multi-kiloton yield touted for it, and again, I wouldn't venture to compare TOS and TNG capabilities, technologically they just don't mesh.

I didn't say they had to pack multi-kiloton, I think your confusing me with Enterprise. Second for better or worse TOS is cannon and photon grenaids have been mention in atleast two episodes since. Legacy (TNG) and "Paradise lost" (DS9) IIRC

Federation infantry from what I've seen is not practically equipped for heavy combat of any duration.

As you said we've never seen a heavy fight. We've seen a worn down garrsion force and a field hospitol. We know they have the various technolagies listed and we know personal shields and photongrenaids were stockpiled at earth big enough for an army. I don't see why they wouldn't arm the soldiers at the front with it.

Mmm, I'm sure there are incidences of TNG tactical bombardment, like I said, TOS is to me wildly inconsistent with later technology.

Not of the top of my head with phasers. IN alliance (VOY) a couple of low yield torps were fired at a shuttle near the surface of the planet.

Yep.

A lasgun vs a phaser? okay I'll bite. Just what can they do?"

Yes well, that was basically what I was saying ;)

Got no problem with that.

I do doubt however that Betazoids are that commonly employed for psychic tracking in military combat, or hooked into targetting computers and their ilk ;)

No, but I brought it up that the federation does have a "poor man's" version should physkers prove to be a huge advantage.

Heavily shielded, heavily armoured with dense and exotic conducting armour materials, and possessing extremely powerful power generation.

Well if you can't beam through it, I would up for either a surgical strike from orbit or mass mortar fire. Or pray for Q :)

The bane of any Trek transporter device.

Yep shields generaly stop us, through funny and dense alloys not so much, through once in a while you do run into some that do.

Hell, heavy Imperial artillery causes electromagnetic comms disruption.

Is that because they hurl nukes?

Probably enough to nerf explosives teleportation, never mind jamming, even if its Feddy doctrine to employ such a doctrine, which I havent' seen much evidence of.

Then again if you just got hit with heavy artillary what would be left to transport. Also in voyager I know they beamed a photon torpedo onto a borg ship, just can't remeber the episode's name.

[Jedi Master Spock]

IIRC, Titans' void shields can be penetrated by warp missiles, i.e., the closest equivalent to a transporter beam. Ergo, don't count on it stopping Trek transporters. (Of course, it would also be silly to count on transporters piercing all WH40K shields.)

I have a lot of trouble believing stellar levels of output, or that "supercompressed plasma reactions" are - in a logical, sane, and real-physics-related universe - anything other than fusion reactions. That said, WH40K isn't the most logical universe, but we're forced to try and fit it in as best as we can. Which, IMO, indicates 1-2 orders of magnitude more brute force than a typical Federation ship, albeit much less elegantly applied. Overall, I'd call a WH40K cruiser similar to a Borg cube in terms of brute force - not an easy target, albeit with a rather different style of play.

Is Sabbat Martyr the only example of fast maneuvering (it's similar to some Trek examples), and how fast do BFG ships usually move in combat?

Because in general - leaving aside the absurdly slow speed of most onscreen turbolasers - Warhammer ships should be fairly easy to hit at long range if they don't maneuver sharply.

[Gniops]

Yeah and a signle phaser array can fire front,back,left,right and up. In the end it does it's job more effectively then a solid gun emplacment.

Then why does the Defiant have limited arc heavy guns :P

Which is what I said. Against a fast agile foe, only a smattering of thier weapons could be brought to bear.

*shrug*

They don't really "need" more than a smattering of weaponry. And I don't think you appreciate quite how little an Imperial vessel would have to move.

Given the slow moving nature of major fleet engagments in Trek, i.e. Large battle lines, it shouldn't be a problem.

AN array has far,far better coverage, and could bring to bear most if not all of them against the imperial ship.

Judging by the performance of the Enterprise in Nemesis, I'm not sure they have the endurance to even take down Escort vessels. Against a superior foe from their own tech base, the pride of the Federation fleet barely managed to scratch it, until the dubious "ramming" scene.

I was refering to thier lack of mobility and prefernce to slug it out via brute force. Your accuracy needed to hit a 3-8 kilometer warship sitting releatvily still is far less then hitting a ship less then 1 kilometer enganging evasive actions.

Brute force typically wins out over finesse, if you can't hurt the opposition even in the Federation, the borg and the Scimitar are an excellent example of this. Contrived ramming scenes, uploading fractal mindbuggery and putting the Imperials to sleep aren't really an option.

True it has been done, but it's not the extent of thier range.

Certainly, but for better or worse, AFAIK every major fleet action, and most of the one on one combat has taken place in visual range.

Doctrinally, the Trek universe likes to knife-fight.

24th century starship can bullseye starships in the 200,000km range ref. "the Wounded" (TNG).

Is that the Cardy ship getting blasted by the rogue Feddy ?, I was thinking 300000km for that for some reason.

IIRC, the longest ranged non-bombardment weaponry mounted on Imperial vessels are Apocalypse classes Lance arrays, which have twice the range of a Cruisers 300,000km batteries (ref Nightbringer)

TOS is cannon

TOS technology, particularly warp drive capabilities cannot be reconciled with TNG without shoehorning worse than the ICS IMO.

A lasgun vs a phaser? okay I'll bite. Just what can they do?"

Its essentially an AK-47 raygun, typically similar levels of damage to SW blasters, with multiple settings, usually dismemberment, explosively vapourised chunks of flesh, getting shot in the back and having your insides roasted. Full auto, integral sights, decent ergonomics.

Basically, a grossly superior military weapon to most phasers. Even with the technobabblium disappearing of entire people (never to my knowledge used in a combat situation) or the dreaded widebeam.

No, but I brought it up that the federation does have a "poor man's" version should physkers prove to be a huge advantage.

Its not even a poor mans version really, Poor Troy wouldn't know what hit her if she crossed paths with a battle-psyker.

Well if you can't beam through it, I would up for either a surgical strike from orbit or mass mortar fire. Or pray for Q :)

Battle and Emperor Titans mount Defense lasers, not particularly helpful against 40k capital ships on their lonesome, but it should make a Feddy vessels eyes water ;)

Given the scale of possible conflict, it is unlikely that the Feds would engage Titan supported forces on their own, its just suicide unless they have the heavy units of the GE to back them up.

Yep shields generaly stop us, through funny and dense alloys not so much, through once in a while you do run into some that do.

A titan is basically everything thats ever stopped a transporter beam rolled into one, intense EM fields, alien technology/magic and armour shielding.

Is that because they hurl nukes?

Possibly Superheavy artillery will fire nuke warheads, Geryon class Orbital artillery platforms fire "disruption shells" and various other munitions designed to fog up the battlespace. Similar ground based versions are probably to blame for the comms disruption.

IIRC, Titans' void shields can be penetrated by warp missiles, i.e., the closest equivalent to a transporter beam.

The closest equivalent to a transporter beams is more likely an actual teleportation device, as you'll know from Battlefleet Gothic, teleport attacks are impossible unless Void shielding has been knocked down. Warp missiles don't have a targeting system or matter stream to block, the thing pops into the warp at one point, then pops out of the warp at another, and not always successfully.

I have a lot of trouble believing stellar levels of output

Why ? It actually describes such several times, and the energy required to power devices such as Nova and bombardment cannons, never mind pushing gigantic lumps of heavy metal around is of such magnitudes.

"supercompressed plasma reactions" are - in a logical, sane, and real-physics-related universe - anything other than fusion reactions.

When breached or compromised in some fashion ,they can explode violently, and there have been instances of Lance turrets being ripped off their mountings and the exposed feed spewing huge torrents of "liquid plasma" into space.

Its handwavium power generation basically, a general purpose Petawatt plasma reactor can operate for 2000 years without being maintained or refuelled.

Is Sabbat Martyr the only example of fast maneuvering (it's similar to some Trek examples), and how fast do BFG ships usually move in combat?

Not really, DoW:Ascension has Astartes, Eldar and Necron vessels zipping around from Planet to star and back again like Stargate vessels,

[Praeothmin]

Against a superior foe from their own tech base, the pride of the Federation fleet barely managed to scratch it, until the dubious "ramming" scene.

A superior foe they couldn't see because it was cloaked, much less hit most of the time.
A superior foe which, even if seen, looked very maneuverable for an 800m ship.
In fact, if you count the number of times that superior foe hit the Enterprize, I think it stood up rather well to the barrage...

Given the slow moving nature of major fleet engagments in Trek, i.e. Large battle lines, it shouldn't be a problem.

Slow moving lines that broke up fast enough once combat was engaged...

Brute force typically wins out over finesse,

That's a matter of opinion, as I know many who would disagree with that assessment... ;)

I don't know much of 40K, so I'm not actually debating who would win, but I thought I would try to clear up points which were, IMO, a little off... ;)

[Gniops]

A superior foe they couldn't see because it was cloaked, much less hit most of the time.
A superior foe which, even if seen, looked very maneuverable for an 800m ship.
In fact, if you count the number of times that superior foe hit the Enterprize, I think it stood up rather well to the barrage...

You mean the ship that didnt' actually want to destroy the Enterprise, (which I'm assuming is why the Scimitar didn't just unload its dozens of Disruptor banks and torps, instead pissing around)

The daft up the arse pursuit allowed the Enterprise to hit repeatedly, and at the end of the short pursuit, the Enterprise had exhausted its phaser banks (and was apparently unable to recharge them in any useful timespan) and was shieldless and toothless.

This after only tens of minutes at best of sustained heavy combat. One on one, I doubt theres a federation vessel in existence that could take on an Imperial Frigate, never mind a Cruiser.

I'm not sure where really to go with the Empire, Nonamer suggested to me that the various ICS derived numbers and theories are considered dubious at best over here ?

Slow moving lines that broke up fast enough once combat was engaged...

Yeah, into a giant swirling melee, not a long ranged duel. Hardly a good idea for the Feddies against Imperial vessels, although lets face it, its not a good idea for them to be frontline combatants at all.

That's a matter of opinion, as I know many who would disagree with that assessment... ;)

Usually Deus Ex Machina trumps brute force, or some other unique factor. If we look at it from the perspective of an Imperial battlefleet being like a fleet of Borg vessels to federation ships, there aren't any special tactics and so on and so forth that present themselves from previous Federation military action.

If a Marine battlebarge or something similar replaced a cube in some of the all out assaults the borg have launched, I doubt Picard would have had some insight as to what power conduit to shoot, and if he'd been on board as a Cybernetic organism linked into the ships systems, it'd be as a drooling mono-task servitor, not the dude in charge of the battle!

[sonofccn]

Then why does the Defiant have limited arc heavy guns :P

It does have standard phasers arrays if I remember correctly, so it has the best of both worlds.

Given the slow moving nature of major fleet engagments in Trek, i.e. Large battle lines, it shouldn't be a problem.

Feds ships can be quite manuverable when they need to be, ref. DS9's pilot epsidoe during the flashback to wolf 359.

Against a superior foe from their own tech base, the pride of the Federation fleet barely managed to scratch it, until the dubious "ramming" scene.

Unless an escort has surperior manuvbility, a state of the art cloak and such, it's hardly a fair comparison.

Brute force typically wins out over finesse, if you can't hurt the opposition even in the Federation,

Brute force is a choice, not the only one. Niether one has an overwhelming advantage over the other.

the borg and the Scimitar are an excellent example of this

The schimitar wasn't brute force. It was a far more elegant weapon. Graceful even. It didn't simply sit thier and rely on having big enough guns to pound the enemy away.

For the borg your correct, but then again I doubt Imperium ships are as decenterlised or as quick at adapting/repairing.

Doctrinally, the Trek universe likes to knife-fight.

Riker partly explains that is to reduce reaction time.

Is that the Cardy ship getting blasted by the rogue Feddy ?, I was thinking 300000km for that for some reason.

I could be remember the number in error, but either way it's in the hundres of kms.

IIRC, the longest ranged non-bombardment weaponry mounted on Imperial vessels are Apocalypse classes Lance arrays, which have twice the range of a Cruisers 300,000km batteries (ref Nightbringer)

Not bad,not bad at all.

TOS technology, particularly warp drive capabilities cannot be reconciled with TNG without shoehorning worse than the ICS IMO.

I wouldn't go that far. Personly I think voyager should be dropped and remove all those problems it started, but such is life.

Its essentially an AK-47 raygun, typically similar levels of damage to SW blasters,

Ah so it fires energy equivlent to lead bullets. :)

with multiple settings, usually dismemberment, explosively vapourised chunks of flesh, getting shot in the back and having your insides roasted. Full auto, integral sights, decent ergonomics.

Sounds better then your average blaster if that is the standard setting.

Basically, a grossly superior military weapon to most phasers. Even with the technobabblium disappearing of entire people (never to my knowledge used in a combat situation) or the dreaded widebeam.

Phasers don't need full auto, have internail stabilsers and aming devices, and "technobabblium" aside can do a helluva lot more to thier surronding area then roast your insides. Holdout cricket phasers have atleast a maxium effective yeild in the 5 megajoul range. Ref. (Hide adn Q) (TNG).

Now this is an entirely different
animal. It's Federation standard
issue. A little less powerful,
but with more options... sixteen
beam settings... fully autonomous
recharge... multiple target
acquisition... gyrostablized...
the works.

refrence to the aiming devices and stabilzers. So everytthing a lasgun has and more with finess and brute force all in one standard issue package.

Its not even a poor mans version really, Poor Troy wouldn't know what hit her if she crossed paths with a battle-psyker.

As far as detecting enemy troops they do, now if your refering to thier magic abilites, well that's life.

Battle and Emperor Titans mount Defense lasers, not particularly helpful against 40k capital ships on their lonesome, but it should make a Feddy vessels eyes water ;)

Maybe,maybe not.

Given the scale of possible conflict, it is unlikely that the Feds would engage Titan supported forces on their own, its just suicide unless they have the heavy units of the GE to back them up.

I wouldn't say it's "just suicide" thier a pretty innovative lot and are very flexiable to solving problems. Still it would be easier to simply send GE heavy armor.

A titan is basically everything thats ever stopped a transporter beam rolled into one, intense EM fields, alien technology/magic and armour shielding.

When has technolagy ever stopped a transporter by it's mere existence?

[Jedi Master Spock]

Certainly, but for better or worse, AFAIK every major fleet action, and most of the one on one combat has taken place in visual range.

Doctrinally, the Trek universe likes to knife-fight.

Actually, there have been more out-of-visual-range battles than you think. People just remember the ones that involve knife fights better.

It's not at all unusual to see ~100,000 km ranges in TOS, or 300,000 in TNG or later, and just how unusual it is in-universe to engage at point blank when you don't have to is actually discussed in one episode ("A Matter of Honor") where 40,000 km is described as being a very bold distance to close to before engaging. Of course, with not-so-rare tactical use of warp engines - or ridiculous impulse engines - it doesn't take much to turn things into a point-blank engagement.

IIRC, the longest ranged non-bombardment weaponry mounted on Imperial vessels are Apocalypse classes Lance arrays, which have twice the range of a Cruisers 300,000km batteries (ref Nightbringer)

The absolute longest range that we see in Trek is actually longer than this, although 300,000 km seems to be the generally expected peak tactical range for Trek ships.

TOS technology, particularly warp drive capabilities cannot be reconciled with TNG without shoehorning worse than the ICS IMO.

Actually, the TOS warp paradigm can be reconciled with TNG just as easily as the VOY warp paradigm. TNG actually contains the fastest warp speeds of any of the series - as well as the second slowest warp speeds of any of the series.

Stated TOS ranges and stated TNG ranges dovetail nicely, although not with DS9 visuals.

Its essentially an AK-47 raygun, typically similar levels of damage to SW blasters, with multiple settings, usually dismemberment, explosively vapourised chunks of flesh, getting shot in the back and having your insides roasted. Full auto, integral sights, decent ergonomics.

Basically, a grossly superior military weapon to most phasers. Even with the technobabblium disappearing of entire people (never to my knowledge used in a combat situation) or the dreaded widebeam.

Phasers have "full auto," integral aiming, multiple settings, etc. There's basically no measurable capability of a lasgun that a phaser rifle can't match, and the phaser rifle has numerous settings the lasgun can't match (such as high-powered demolition, wide-beam, and complete vaporization of humanoid targets). On top of it, even hand phasers exhibit greater firepower - meaning that the Federation phaser rifle is, leaving aside the greater training time required for the weapon (see DS9 "Return to Grace"), a clearly superior weapons.

Of course, the lasgun is better compared with the Cardassian phase disruptor rifle (the AK-47 of the Trek world), described as having a 4.7 MJ shot and a 3 millisecond cycle, a couple firing modes, etc.

Now, the more important question is this: Does the Empire have as good of a full-auto mode, and do they get a similar number of shots per power pack on their blaster rifles?

Overall, the lasgun does seem a little more powerful from your description, but the blaster is probably up to the task of maiming or killing Imperial guards, which (IIRC) have fairly minimal armor vests and helmets.

Battle and Emperor Titans mount Defense lasers, not particularly helpful against 40k capital ships on their lonesome, but it should make a Feddy vessels eyes water ;)

You've described these, IIRC, as kiloton to megaton level weapons for anti-fighter work. Those will make Imperial fighters' eyes water, threaten typical Federation shuttles, and irritate smaller Imperial vessels.

Most actual Trek or Wars warships, from runabouts upwards, are not going to be very threatened by that. Titans can stand out to what AT-STs can dish out; they can perhaps survive some number of thermal detonators or photon grenades. It's unlikely that they can take SPHA-T, other ground-mounted "ultra-heavy fire support" hits, or any freshly designed heavy anti-Titan missiles that the Empire or Federation could easily build. Starships are right out.

A titan is basically everything thats ever stopped a transporter beam rolled into one, intense EM fields, alien technology/magic and armour shielding.

And all of those have also failed to stop transporters. Keep that in mind. If they stop teleporters, I'd call it better than a 50% chance that transporters are also stopped.

Why ? It actually describes such several times, and the energy required to power devices such as Nova and bombardment cannons, never mind pushing gigantic lumps of heavy metal around is of such magnitudes.

And such language is also used very loosely in other descriptions.

When breached or compromised in some fashion ,they can explode violently, and there have been instances of Lance turrets being ripped off their mountings and the exposed feed spewing huge torrents of "liquid plasma" into space.

Its handwavium power generation basically, a general purpose Petawatt plasma reactor can operate for 2000 years without being maintained or refuelled.

I'll ask you three questions:

-How much mass is in that GP PW generator at most? (I.e., how heavy is it?)
-What happens to a roaring hot-plasma fusion reaction when you pull the containment off?
-What happens to Trek and Wars power generation figures when we allow silly handwavium?

Think about the answers to those questions, and you'll see why it's most reasonable to treat WH40K as relying on giant fusion reactors. Sheer size of those reactors still allows them the sort of impressive scale of power that lets them devastate worlds, of course, and they have a sustained output that Federation and Empire ships are going to envy.

2e21 joule shots for your main bombardment cannon on a battle cruiser (that's ~500 gigatons for those of you counting) is perfectly reasonable for a ship with a km-wide fusion reactor.

You haven't offered any figure for the nova cannon, but I see from game statistics that it generally has a listed "FP/STR" of 1 (applied with an AOE template, of course), while the lance battery you say the bombardment cannon equivalent to is a 2-4 FP/STR weapon on various different ships. It does not sound like greater than fusion power is required - or even suggested, given the scale of the reactors.

The Gothic class cruiser, which is armed with two lance batteries and short-range torpedos, seems to be considered worth half as much as the heaviest Imperium battleship.

I'm not seeing the maximum firepower for a fusion-powered ship with a reactor this size, not from those figures. The only hard firepower figures you've offered are 610 gigatons for a torpedo, and then 500 gigatons for a bombardment cannon.

On a five minute cycle, with generally one mount of that scale covering each firing arc for a typical cruiser, that's actually not any greater output than a GCS's conventional weapons (phasers est at peak values several GT/sec, torpedos est ~ GT ea when fired at large slow targets in a bombardment-style attack.) A GCS can be expected to dump its entire peacetime torpedo arsenal in one BFG turn, with small swift shielded torpedos that WH40K ships probably have no clue on how to down, while striking with phasers the entire time. In other words, the GCS can expect to be able to deliver, at 300,000 km, in one WH40K firing cycle, a completely accurate barrage that hits as hard as a Strike cruiser orbital bombardment.

Although (IIRC) not enough to kill a typical WH40K cruiser, this is going to be pretty demoralizing coming from a ship that much smaller than a WH40K ship.

Open the door to StarFleet "creativity" (i.e., Deus Ex Machina) and we can start talking about the infamous deflector array beam and other various means of cheating, of course.

For that matter, an ISD may be able to shell out up to 100 MT per second sustained beam firepower for a long period of time - it seems pretty clear that Imperial vessels, although possibly ... probably ... outgunned and outranged, are not a presence you can neglect on this battlefield.

Not really, DoW:Ascension has Astartes, Eldar and Necron vessels zipping around from Planet to star and back again like Stargate vessels,

Anything specific? (More importantly, is this normal?) Because if this is normal, we could assume that Imperium ships have raw sublight linear acceleration (at least) advantages over Imperial capital ships, albeit not Trek ships.

[Gniops]

It does have standard phasers arrays if I remember correctly, so it has the best of both worlds.

It wouldn't have them if they weren't any good, there has to be some benefit for them.

Unless an escort has surperior manuvbility, a state of the art cloak and such, it's hardly a fair comparison.

Hmm, I think I've not made myself clear here, The Enterprise has basically shot its bolt in Nemesis against a trek-tech battleship/superweapon platform, its weapon strikes (often enough that we get to see their pretty effect on the cloaked Scimitar) have been utterly ineffective, not even reducing the shields by half, despite having managed more than the one or two shots normally required to at least get those consoles sparking.

The scimitar by comparison hasn't even been seriously fighting, yet still reduces the Enterprise to a cripple with a few shots. An Imperial vessel wouldn't even need to fly around, or possess anything more than their usual ECM/ECCM, as they are in the same position as the Scimitar, they outclass the Enterprise tremendously, which can't really do jack in return.

Its capabilities are an order of magnitude beyond those of the Scimitars coventional weaponry at least, and it could even be packing an equivalent technobabble extermination device. (hell, it could do so with its main guns if it really felt like it)

Brute force is a choice, not the only one. Niether one has an overwhelming advantage over the other.

Well, let me put it this way, if the Borg had sent a Cube to Terra, and transmitted their usual gravelly voice threatening statement, the Imperial Navy would have just blown them apart. Even if it had a former captain or some such bloke assimilated.

When you have overwhelming brute force, and lack a handy deus ex machina weak point, no amount of fancy flying really makes much difference.

the Federation is about 150 worlds IIRC, to conquer a cluster of about this size in the Sabbat Worlds crusade, the Imperium sent over a billion Guard, over ten thousand warships plus all the auxiliary crap.

Without the Empire, this scale of invasion, even ignoring the disparity in firepower, endurance etc is pretty much unprecedented forthe Feddies.

In a fight between two galactic superpowers, the Feddies are just regional powers who had better hope somebody on the big boys team doesn't decide to annihilate their worlds as an example.

The schimitar wasn't brute force. It was a far more elegant weapon. Graceful even. It didn't simply sit thier and rely on having big enough guns to pound the enemy away.

Oh I agree it swooped about and was pretty, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that the Scimitar had bigger guns, more of them, and better shields.

If they both sat directly opposite each other, and pounded away until one blew up, judging from their performance in Nemesis against each other, with both of them hitting relatively infrequently, with the Scimitar basically idly carving bits off the Enterprise, who do you think would have blown up first ?

For the borg your correct, but then again I doubt Imperium ships are as decenterlised or as quick at adapting/repairing.

Imperial vessels benefit from possessing multiple shield arcs and generators, and several reactors as well as secondary power systems. Their diversity of weaponry means that not everything is a power hungry death beam either, and they have many many individual weapon systems.

They do have automated self-repair systems actually, self healing circuitry etc. But they also won't have a gigantic hole blown in them by a single torpedo because they arsed around being all intimidating.

Riker partly explains that is to reduce reaction time.

Yep, its also a bad idea when your opponents anti-starfighter weaponry is probably enough to spoil your day, never mind the main guns.

Ah so it fires energy equivlent to lead bullets. :)

Like I said, still feeling my way around what the attitude of the board is here, but even discounting the sometimes dubious numbers of no-fixed abode that SW has generated for its small arms, the Stormy carbine is pretty easily capable of blasting huge chunks out of fleshies, simply from stuff it does in the original trilogy.

And again, if I had to get into a fight, I'd probably want an E-11 rather than a phaser, its just a better gun for combat.

Sounds better then your average blaster if that is the standard setting.

I think the description benefits from the fact that while Movie blasters can take out bits of metal and other non-living targets quite impressively, Mr Lucas probably didn't want an 18 certificate for his film, which is what he'd have gotten if he filmed someone getting their chest cavity hollowed out by a raygun, or reduced somebody to a charred corpse with a plasma bolt ALA predator.

Remember Leia shooting the grille in ANH ? imagine that hitting someone in the chest, and tell me it wouldn't have blasted them open.

Phasers don't need full auto

Why not ? its a pretty useful capability, and isn't subject to the diminishing returns of wide-beam at range.

"technobabblium" aside can do a helluva lot more to thier surronding area then roast your insides.

90% of combat in trek has them causing mild burns man, although they are subject to the same problem as most visual mediums, having your hero flash-burn his human opponents into crackling meat often offends.(although you can get away with it if you roast and dismember aliens...)

refrence to the aiming devices and stabilzers. So everytthing a lasgun has and more with finess and brute force all in one standard issue package.

The aiming and stabilisers probably just about make up for the horrific ergonomics of most phasers eh ?

You are just as dead if someone disintigrates you, as you are if someone puts a bullet in your head. As Imperial guard typically wear energy weapon resistent armour, along with their combat weapons (not swiss army knives) I'd bet on an Imperial guardmen ;)

I wouldn't say it's "just suicide" thier a pretty innovative lot and are very flexiable to solving problems. Still it would be easier to simply send GE heavy armor.

To throw an approach back at you chaps, innovation has its limits. the energy weaponry on board battle titans is described as being capable of "laying waste to cities", and they mount ICBMs as long range support.

Its not like you can climb into and invade the buggers that much either, annoying squishies who try that get electrocuted!

When has technolagy ever stopped a transporter by it's mere existence?

not just technology, almost anything. transformers, ECM , natural radiation, shields etc.

To assume that they would work on something which wraps itself in multiple layers of shielding, as well as having a honking greater reactor in its chest, and is probably firing gigantic energy weapons at the nearest hapless redshirt is stretching it a little.

[Praeothmin]

You mean the ship that didnt' actually want to destroy the Enterprise, (which I'm assuming is why the Scimitar didn't just unload its dozens of Disruptor banks and torps, instead pissing around)

It doesn't mean that every shot that hit was a low powered one.
Remember that similar shots destroyed the two Romulan vessels that were accompanying the Enterprise.
And franckly, if the Enterprise hadn't been a threat, the Scimitart would have had no reasons to cloak and fight.
I for one hand would've been far more terrified as a Captain, if I had seen the other ship just standing there and taking everything we had and not care.
The Scimitar flew around firing while cloaked because it feared what a fully seeing, fully tergetting Enterprise would have been able to do, IMO.

And besides, it hit the Enterprise very often, and each of these hits seemed to rock the ship as much as any other We-want-to-destroy-you shots that have been fired in any shows or in any movie on the Enterprise.

Usually Deus Ex Machina trumps brute force

I have to agree that it depends on the disparity of the force of two opponents. I wasn't really clear on that point.

The scimitar by comparison hasn't even been seriously fighting, yet still reduces the Enterprise to a cripple with a few shots

It was a lot more than "a few shots"... :)

And again, if I had to get into a fight, I'd probably want an E-11 rather than a phaser, its just a better gun for combat.

For someone who never handled a weapon in their life, I have to agree.
It is easier to use, but its precision is horrible, even moreso on auto mode.
The Phaser is truly a much better weapon, with many more capabilities, but it is harder to use for untrained hands... IMO... ;)

90% of combat in trek has them causing mild burns man,

Actually, they cause small burn marks, but they still kill in one shot 90% of the time.
Nothing to sneeze at.
Plus, there's the kinetic punch the Phaser delivers.
Notice how people hit with a Phaser blast get thrown backward, even when moving forward?
It even does that on Stun settings...

You are just as dead if someone disintigrates you, as you are if someone puts a bullet in your head. As Imperial guard typically wear energy weapon resistent armour, along with their combat weapons (not swiss army knives) I'd bet on an Imperial guardmen ;)

Just as with the Brute Force quote, it basucally depends on how much energy the "Energy Resistant" armor can resist.
It is said that Stormtrooper armor also is energy resistant, yet any Blaster bolt will kill one... Any blaster shot that hits, that is... ;)

[sonofccn]

It wouldn't have them if they weren't any good, there has to be some benefit for them.

I have never said thier were not advantages to brute force. I simply said that thier were advantages with finess approch. Each have drawbacks and advantages so really I fail to see how the Defient changes anything.

Hmm, I think I've not made myself clear here, The Enterprise has basically shot its bolt in Nemesis against a trek-tech battleship/superweapon platform, its weapon strikes (often enough that we get to see their pretty effect on the cloaked Scimitar) have been utterly ineffective, not even reducing the shields by half, despite having managed more than the one or two shots normally required to at least get those consoles sparking.

The scimitar by comparison hasn't even been seriously fighting, yet still reduces the Enterprise to a cripple with a few shots. An Imperial vessel wouldn't even need to fly around, or possess anything more than their usual ECM/ECCM, as they are in the same position as the Scimitar, they outclass the Enterprise tremendously, which can't really do jack in return.

Eh? So in your mind the schimtar which was heavily shielded and heavily armed, and was uber manuvable being able to outclass the ENT-E proves an IMperium vessel would do the same? In essence the schimtar was the perfect blend of the two ideas. It had the agility and the hitting power to fly rings around the the ENT-E and pummle it. I fail to understand your claim that the schimatr won wiht only a few shots, it fired a decent amount IMO.

Well, let me put it this way, if the Borg had sent a Cube to Terra, and transmitted their usual gravelly voice threatening statement, the Imperial Navy would have just blown them apart. Even if it had a former captain or some such bloke assimilated.

Maybe, if outgunned teh borg do poorly since they rely on brute force.

When you have overwhelming brute force, and lack a handy deus ex machina weak point, no amount of fancy flying really makes much difference.

A knife slash to a vital can always make a differnce. Big giant gun platforms have drawbacks that can be exploited.

the Federation is about 150 worlds IIRC, to conquer a cluster of about this size in the Sabbat Worlds crusade, the Imperium sent over a billion Guard, over ten thousand warships plus all the auxiliary crap.

150 for members, not counting colonies. So for the combined Fed-Emipire alliance just how many ships would be hurled into the fire?

In a fight between two galactic superpowers, the Feddies are just regional powers who had better hope somebody on the big boys team doesn't decide to annihilate their worlds as an example

Each to his own opinion I suppose. Hell maybe compared to the IMperium that's true. However the Feds are stronger then the Imps, atleast on a indiviabl bases, so if feds don't have a prayer Palpy better resign soon.

Oh I agree it swooped about and was pretty, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that the Scimitar had bigger guns, more of them, and better shields.

Combined with the fact that it's target couldn't evade it at all. The fight would have been a tad differnt if it simply sat and fired disrupter banks.

If they both sat directly opposite each other, and pounded away until one blew up, judging from their performance in Nemesis against each other, with both of them hitting relatively infrequently, with the Scimitar basically idly carving bits off the Enterprise, who do you think would have blown up first ?

If they both decided to simply sit there? Well duh the one with bigger shields and guns would win that "contest". Now imagine if the schimitar sat thier and teh ENT was allowed to swarm it so to speak. Then I wager the schimitar would be the one to blow.

Imperial vessels benefit from possessing multiple shield arcs and generators, and several reactors as well as secondary power systems. Their diversity of weaponry means that not everything is a power hungry death beam either, and they have many many individual weapon systems.

No were near a borg cube which can function effectivly wiht 70% missing.

Yep, its also a bad idea when your opponents anti-starfighter weaponry is probably enough to spoil your day, never mind the main guns.

Depends if they connect or not. Otherwise thier just fireworks.

Like I said, still feeling my way around what the attitude of the board is here, but even discounting the sometimes dubious numbers of no-fixed abode that SW has generated for its small arms, the Stormy carbine is pretty easily capable of blasting huge chunks out of fleshies, simply from stuff it does in the original trilogy.

First off that was sorta joke,hence the little smile. I know even IMperial blasters can do more then bullet damage, but standard setting is bullet damage and when you compared a lazgun to it as part of why it's better thena phaser I couldn't resiest.
The best I know of an Imperial weapon doing is blasting nice holes in walls, which I guess could by huge chunks, through large holes may be a better term.

And again, if I had to get into a fight, I'd probably want an E-11 rather than a phaser, its just a better gun for combat.

So you'd accept less firepower,less options, less accuracy because it looks cool? I'm fine with that.

I think the description benefits from the fact that while Movie blasters can take out bits of metal and other non-living targets quite impressively, Mr Lucas probably didn't want an 18 certificate for his film, which is what he'd have gotten if he filmed someone getting their chest cavity hollowed out by a raygun, or reduced somebody to a charred corpse with a plasma bolt ALA predator.

Remember Leia shooting the grille in ANH ? imagine that hitting someone in the chest, and tell me it wouldn't have blasted them open.

So? I said if that was it's standard setting ie number 1, or are you arguing we should ignore all the hits to humans as special effects error and simply assume a blaster would always do maximum damage?

Why not ? its a pretty useful capability, and isn't subject to the diminishing returns of wide-beam at range.

Because for all ententes and purpuse a beam is full auto, JMS website has even proposed that phasers fire "bolts" so fast it only appears to be a beam. I don't fully believe that, but the point is anything you can do with full auto a beam can.

90% of combat in trek has them causing mild burns man

90% of starwars simply flashes and burn. It's called settings. Thier's little need to waste energy vaping or blowing up someone with you can simply kill him. To deny what we've seen a phaser do simply because it doesn't always reduce a human to a pile mess seems a tad harsh.

You are just as dead if someone disintigrates you, as you are if someone puts a bullet in your head. As Imperial guard typically wear energy weapon resistent armour, along with their combat weapons (not swiss army knives) I'd bet on an Imperial guardmen ;)

Duh. Dead is dead. the point was we were comparing the two standard issue weapons. A phaser has a lot the lasgun doesn't and everything it does have with greater firepower. So it's a better gun. As far as the guardsman is concerned it would depend on how good his armor is at stopping lasgun fire.

To throw an approach back at you chaps, innovation has its limits. the energy weaponry on board battle titans is described as being capable of "laying waste to cities", and they mount ICBMs as long range support.

Brute force has it's limits. Nothign is unstoppable or inviciable. However Starfleet personel have shown a flair for rapidly figeruing out alien tech and in some cases turning it on the enemy.

not just technology

Please cite a refrence where technolagy stopped a transporter.

transformers

If you stand right freaking under it sure that might work.

ECM

I don't recall that, please cite refrence.

natural radiation

That was lethal to humans and I wouldn't want to be beamed there. Even IG would find that planet bothersome.

To assume that they would work on something which wraps itself in multiple layers of shielding, as well as having a honking greater reactor in its chest, and is probably firing gigantic energy weapons at the nearest hapless redshirt is stretching it a little.

Well once your past the shields just about any high explosive inside would be bad, even if it's not near the reactor.