Feds+Imps vs Imperium of Man

[Dragoon]

Alright then.

My prediction is thusly:

In space, the combined fleets of the Federation and Empire achieve local superiority because of superior manuverability, weight of numbers and the fact that reinforcements from the Imperium have to come by the Warp, which isn't exactly the most stable way to travel (whole fleets lost, etc). Plus they have the Death Star, which can annihilate Imperium capital ships in a single blast. It comes at a cost though.

On the ground its a different story. The sheer numbers of the Imperial Guard, their superiority in heavy weaponry and with the Space Marines on their side they should be able to push back any landings made by the Stormtroopers and the Federation.

So eventually they resort to pinpoint orbital bombardments.

[sonofccn]

In space, the combined fleets of the Federation and Empire achieve local superiority because of superior manuverability, weight of numbers and the fact that reinforcements from the Imperium have to come by the Warp, which isn't exactly the most stable way to travel (whole fleets lost, etc).

Over all I agree with your theroy. Death by a thousand cuts instead of the Imperium's prefered brute force.Through just how bad to Imperium ships wallow that a ISD can outmanuver them:)

Plus they have the Death Star, which can annihilate Imperium capital ships in a single blast. It comes at a cost though.

I would think it would be more useful if less politcaly advisable to emply the DS for it's original purpuse. Destroying say forge worlds.

On the ground its a different story. The sheer numbers of the Imperial Guard, their superiority in heavy weaponry and with the Space Marines on their side they should be able to push back any landings made by the Stormtroopers and the Federation.

True the Imp-Fed alliance can't fight the total of the Imperial guard. Since they appear only to able to mobilize a few million each vs a multi-billion armed force( got to love massive conscription of the entire galaxy). However control of space will allow them to contend with ground forces at and when a time of thier choosing, or netrulize them from orbit as seen in "A piece of the action"{TOS). Also both the Empire and the federation pack some serious firepower groundside. The Empire's Sphat(assuming they all haven't been retired) were powerful enough to rip through a trade federation ship, which lack of atmospheric reaction not withstanding, should suggest some serious firepower. For the feds we have Arena(TOS) which Kirk employed a photon grenaid which produced a nice fireball effect(well nice for 60's tv shows)and was a danger to the fireing crew over half a kilometer distante IIRC.

So while I'd agree the Imperium has an advantage groundside, It wouldn't tottaly be onesided. Now I'm a mere novice on the whole WH40K so if I'm totally wrong please feel free to correct me.

[Dragoon]

On the ground its a different story. The sheer numbers of the Imperial Guard, their superiority in heavy weaponry and with the Space Marines on their side they should be able to push back any landings made by the Stormtroopers and the Federation.

True the Imp-Fed alliance can't fight the total of the Imperial guard. Since they appear only to able to mobilize a few million each vs a multi-billion armed force( got to love massive conscription of the entire galaxy). However control of space will allow them to contend with ground forces at and when a time of thier choosing, or netrulize them from orbit as seen in "A piece of the action"{TOS). Also both the Empire and the federation pack some serious firepower groundside. The Empire's Sphat(assuming they all haven't been retired) were powerful enough to rip through a trade federation ship, which lack of atmospheric reaction not withstanding, should suggest some serious firepower. For the feds we have Arena(TOS) which Kirk employed a photon grenaid which produced a nice fireball effect(well nice for 60's tv shows)and was a danger to the fireing crew over half a kilometer distante IIRC.

So while I'd agree the Imperium has an advantage groundside, It wouldn't tottaly be onesided. Now I'm a mere novice on the whole WH40K so if I'm totally wrong please feel free to correct me.

I agree that the Imperials and the Fed do pack some serious firepower on the ground. However, the Imperium has something both the EMpire and the Federation lack: dedicated artillery. Almost all Star Trek and Star Wars ground weapons are line of sight.

Plus, the Imp Guard will take a hit from a fully powered photon grenade and throw in a new regiment to take its place.

By contrast, the Imperial Guard has whole regiments made up of mobile artillery batteries. They also have mortars at the squad level. Their squad level heavy weapons aren't anything to sneer at either. They have lascannons, heavy bolters, rocket launchers and autocannons. Those are only tripod or heavy weapons. They also carry flamethrowers, plasma rifles, meltaguns (some sort of fisson/fusion weapon), grenades, etc.

Overall the Imperium has more firepower to put in the fight on the ground. They are simply better equipped for a ground war then the Federation and probably even the Empire.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Actually, both Klingons and Federation have been observed to use artillery, although it seems rather spotty. There's no question that the Federation (or Empire) can come up with all the necessary ground firepower if they consider the problem in earnest; these are not technologically stagnant powers, and if they're cooperating, they're displaying great strategic flexibility already.

It's not entirely clear how they've been deployed, but the Cardassians do throw around millions of ground troops, i.e., approaching the sort of numbers that could take and hold a typical Imperium world.

However, the whole of the Federation or Old Republic ground forces could be tied up in ground warfare on just a handful of Imperium worlds, and even the Empire at its height is unlikely to be able to mobilize and deploy enough troops to provide for an on-the-ground military conquest. Surrender does not seem like something even individual Imperium worlds often consider, so even if the Empire and Federation were purely on the offensive and kicking Imperium tail in terms of space superiority, conquering the Imperium piece by piece is going to take a very long time.

If the Imperium falls, it would either be because the unholy Empire/Federation pact chose to try to annihilate rather than conquer the Imperium (Death Stars, trilithium torpedos, TDIC/GO 24, etc), perhaps starting with strategic centers, or because the other factions in WH40K started to eat up the Imperium while it was distracted by non-Imperial humanity.

[Mike DiCenso]

Dragoon wrote:

I agree that the Imperials and the Fed do pack some serious firepower on the ground. However, the Imperium has something both the EMpire and the Federation lack: dedicated artillery. Almost all Star Trek and Star Wars ground weapons are line of sight.

That's not entirely true. We have seen in Trek where Artillery was made use of by other interstellar powers, such as the Klingons ("Nor to the Battle the Strong..." [DS95]), and the Dominion ("The Ship" [DS95]). How their artillery compares to the Imperium's is another matter.

Dragoon wrote:
Plus, the Imp Guard will take a hit from a fully powered photon grenade and throw in a new regiment to take its place.

That is something the Imperium has in spades apparently over the Empire and the Federation is raw manpower and resources.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

Almost all Star Trek and Star Wars ground weapons are line of sight.

True,otherwise we couldn't enjoy viewing them.

Plus, the Imp Guard will take a hit from a fully powered photon grenade and throw in a new regiment to take its place.

True, but that won't to as easy when dealing with undersieged planets( assuming an Imp-Fed space advantage). Reinforcments would be hard pressed to get down to the ground to fight.

Their squad level heavy weapons aren't anything to sneer at either. They have lascannons, heavy bolters, rocket launchers and autocannons. Those are only tripod or heavy weapons. They also carry flamethrowers, plasma rifles, meltaguns (some sort of fisson/fusion weapon), grenades, etc.

Likewise Fed weapontry is nothing to sneeze at. From tricorders able to pinpoint enemy locations, to mobile transporters with the range needed to beam up to a ship in orbit (ref. Wounded(TNG)), to handsized mobile shield emmiters(ref. "Chain of Command"(TNG6)) to personal forcefields("Paradise lost" (DS9) IIRC) plus I belive theater shields ala "nor the battle to the strong" (DS9).

The Imperial guard would not find a federation battle a pushover. They might win via numbers or brute force but it wouldn't be a cakewalk.

[Dragoon]

Plus, the Imp Guard will take a hit from a fully powered photon grenade and throw in a new regiment to take its place.

True, but that won't to as easy when dealing with undersieged planets( assuming an Imp-Fed space advantage). Reinforcments would be hard pressed to get down to the ground to fight.

Imperial Worlds tend to have their own defense forces, with populations reaching into the billions.

Their squad level heavy weapons aren't anything to sneer at either. They have lascannons, heavy bolters, rocket launchers and autocannons. Those are only tripod or heavy weapons. They also carry flamethrowers, plasma rifles, meltaguns (some sort of fisson/fusion weapon), grenades, etc.

Likewise Fed weapontry is nothing to sneeze at. From tricorders able to pinpoint enemy locations, to mobile transporters with the range needed to beam up to a ship in orbit (ref. Wounded(TNG)), to handsized mobile shield emmiters(ref. "Chain of Command"(TNG6)) to personal forcefields("Paradise lost" (DS9) IIRC) plus I belive theater shields ala "nor the battle to the strong" (DS9).

The Imperial guard would not find a federation battle a pushover. They might win via numbers or brute force but it wouldn't be a cakewalk.

Yes, but neither would the Federation find the Imperials a pushover. Personal shields are also present, but mainly used by officers or other leaders. The Imperial Guard have the edge in AFVs as well. Tanks and lots of them are usually present.

[Dartan]

If I may throw my thoughts out here, I believe that the Imperium of Man woud win on the ground, not only due to the Imperial Guard, but also due to the Space Marines. Genetically enhanced super warriors that are not only excellent figters individually, they also fight as an extremly coordinated team.

In addition, they are nigh invincible. Take, for example, the occurance where a s ingle squad of Deathwing Terminators took back their entire homeworld from a Genestealer invasion.

However, I agree with the previous posters in that The Fed/Imp alliance holds the advantage in space combat.

[sonofccn]

Imperial Worlds tend to have their own defense forces, with populations reaching into the billions.

I was thinking more along the lines of invaded GE or Fed worlds on that one. You are correct about Wh40k worlds have thier own PDF, through I thought it was inferior to Imperial Guard forces.

Yes, but neither would the Federation find the Imperials a pushover.

Heaven no. The IG has numbers and a nice assortment of lethal weapontry.

The Imperial Guard have the edge in AFVs as well. Tanks and lots of them are usually present.

Alas we know next to nothing Federation fighting veichals, except the dunebuggy of doom :), through the cardies have assault skimmers and I belive theklingons have been said to have a ground viechal.

Maybe the Galatic Empire will loan the feds a few AT-AT's to stomp on the Imperium tanks :)

I believe that the Imperium of Man woud win on the ground, not only due to the Imperial Guard, but also due to the Space Marines. Genetically enhanced super warriors that are not only excellent figters individually, they also fight as an extremly coordinated team.

First off, Greetings Dartan.

Second,Well space marines will live or die by thier armor effectiveness. If the average redshirt with a handphaser can be expected to punch a hole through it in a reasonable timeframe then Marines would be hard pressed to achive a postive loss ratio.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Even though a phaser can certainly wipe a Space Marine on higher settings, Space Marines do have very well trained reflexes, very solid weapons training, a high resistance to collateral damage, etc - and blasters are really not much (if any) more powerful than the Imperium sidearms that Space Marines are so resistant to. We can expect the Empire to supply most of the ground forces.

So, quality-wise, expect the Space Marines to stand out; however, ground battles will boil down to how the far more plentiful Imperial Guard and local planetary militias stand up against a few stormtroopers mixed in with regular Imperial Army troops, walkers, and (if the Empire is so inclined, or sufficiently desperate - they should have the capability) hordes of expendable battle droids. Redshirts will be fairly sparse on the ground.

[sonofccn]

Even though a phaser can certainly wipe a Space Marine on higher settings, Space Marines do have very well trained reflexes, very solid weapons training, a high resistance to collateral damage

I agree they would be deadly, but if I'm not mistaken they only have a million vs the federation with multi-million force. To me atleast I think via attrition the Emperium would be on a losing end.

Of course I do have a personal bias against the Marines prefering the "common man" quaility of the Imperial guard so that might be effecting my judgment.

We can expect the Empire to supply most of the ground forces.

If I may ask, why would the Empire supply most of the ground forces? During the clone wars Imperial/republic forces were similar to federation during the domion war. So both should be roughly similar in size, through Imperial Heavy armor is impressive( I'll take a AT-TE over a dunebuggy anyday)

, ground battles will boil down to how the far more plentiful Imperial Guard and local planetary militias stand up against a few stormtroopers mixed in with regular Imperial Army troops, walkers

Overall I agree wholeheatedly that the land battle will be decided by the poor bloody imperial Guard far more then any genetic superman in space age knight armor. The IG is far from a push over and any battle would be hellish at best.

On a second note, I thought Galatic Empire Stormtroopers were the regular imperial army?

[Dragoon]

Well, the fact that General Veers isn't a stormtrooper (and the EU) suggest differently. The stormtroopers are supposed to be the 'shock troops', but I guess that there could be normal troops.

[Enterprise E]

I have to say that I believe that the outcome of this war will be dependant upon who invades who. Here's how I see things breaking down in terms of advantages and disadvantages:

Technology - When all is said and done, all around the technology of the Federation, and even the Empire, is equal to or superior to the Imperium. And while the Imperium is stagnant and even regressing to a point, the Empire's technology is advancing, albeit very slowly, and the Federation technology advances very quickly. And there is the forbidden technology that the Federation has access to in an emergency such as this, and the Death Stars for the Empire.

Space Superiority - Ship for ship, the Federation and the Empire have better starships than the Imperium. While the Imperium ships are very powerful, with strong shields and many weapons that are powerful, each weapon is probably comparable to the weapons of the Federation and the Empire. And while the Imperium ships are large and strong, they are built as if they were fighting during the age of the sail in space. They are designed to perform massive broadsides against their enemies Space, however, is a 360 degree battlezone with up, down, left, right, forward, and backwards. While they do have some weapons facing forward and torpedoes, many of their torpedoes are designed to carry boarders, if I remember correctly. The Empire and Federation ships can cover their firing arcs quickly and well, with the Federation doing it the best. And, at least for the Federation, you have the sublight speed and maneuverability advantages of Federation starships. Despite being much smaller than their Imperium counterparts, pound for pound, the Federation is at the very least equal to the Imperium, and if Imperium ships can't hit their target, they can't destroy it.

Ground Combat - In ranged combat, the Federation and the Empire have missile launchers, mortars, which can launch kiloton level explosives, and Juggernaut tanks that can launch volley after volley of missiles. These missiles will do a number on the Imperium. The Federation also can employ personal forcefields, personal shield generators, and use tricorders to pinpoint enemy movement. Even the Empire, without using the EU, can use Probe Droids to scout an area. And what the Federation may lack in tanks, is more than made up for by the Empire's presence. Also, the Imperial Guard's main method of fighting is using WW2 tactics, and human wave tactics, so the Federation and the Empire have them beat there. Space Marines, however, will be a problem since it seems as if only phasers at their higher settings, and the heavier blaster rifles will be able to penetrate Space Marine armor. However, I do think that ground combat is where the two sides are most even, for while ranged combat will go to the Federation and the Empire, the tanks of the Imperial Guard and and Space Marines are powerful and well-armored. The Space Marine Land Raider and Land Raider Crusaders will be trouble for the ground forces of the Federation and the Empire.

Numbers - This is where the Imperium will win out in. They have billions of troops to simply throw away into a meat grinder. It won't matter if the casualty ratios are a thousand to one if it requires a ten thousand to one ratio to beat them, and in this scenerio, it may require more than that to beat the Imperium. Even the Imperium fleet outnumbers the Federation and Imperial (non-high end EU) fleets depending upon how many ships the Imperium is willing to throw against the Federation and the Empire.

Close Combat - This is another place where the Imperium excels in, relative to Starfleet and the Galactic Empire. With the exceptions of Worf, Darth Vader, and maybe Palpatine (depending on when the invasion takes place in the SW timeline) I would say that the basic Imperial Guard grunt is better at close combat than the standard Imperial Stormtrooper/Starfleet Security Officer or Marine The only ones that I may see being their equals are MACOs, if they're still around in the 24th century. Normally, getting into close combat versus people with guns is a bad thing, but when the Imperium has such numbers as they do, it doesn't really matter. And if the Space Marines manage to close into close combat range, they'll shred any trooper in the armies of the Empire or the Federation. Only Vader and Palpatine would stand a chance.

Psykers - They're a wild card here since we don't know how the Warp will affect the Federation and Imperial humans. If it doesn't affect their minds since their souls aren't connected to the Warp, I could see mental attacks not being very useful, but any psyker lightning would still kill. And the lack of psykers would hurt the Federation if the Imperium started bringing sanctioned psykers and Space Marine Librarians into the fight.

Outcome - It really depends on how many ships and people the Imperium is willing to throw at the Federation and the Empire. Ship to ship, with the tactics that both the Federation and Empire can use, they'd probably win against the Imperium in one on one encounters, at least the Federation would due to speed and maneuverability. The second Death Star would also be death to an Imperium fleet. Even if the Imperium could muster the ships necessary to destroy the DS, it would still be a pyrric victory, even by their definition of it. If the Imperium had only a two to one advantage, with clever tactics the Federation and the Empire could win, and if the Federation had access to its forbidden technology, I'd up it to a three to one advantage with victory still being possible. But if the Imperium sends its full might against the Federation and the Empire, I think that they would either fall, or it would basically be a MAD scenerio. The Imperium just has so many ships, and so many warm bodies to throw at the Federation that it would require all of the major powers of both the AQ/BQ of Milky Way and the SW galaxy in order to match the full might of the Imperium.

[Jedi Master Spock]

It's true that it's mostly the EU which suggests differently, but so does the student of history. (Lucas did not invent the term "stormtrooper.") General Veers not being a trooper himself has precedents; more important to look at are the non-stormtrooper AT-AT crew.

However, even if stormtroopers have an exclusive lock on infantry positions, the Empire would appear to (a) have more ground forces, and (b) be able to supply more manpower for ground forces.

Since being the Republic, the OT-era Empire has expanded by a factor of ten, from 100,000 to 1 million worlds. Meanwhile, the Federation has a core of 150 members plus an assortment of small colonies - meaning that we can expect the Empire to have something like a thousand times the expendable manpower to draw on. The Empire's ability to train and deploy ground forces would seem to be mainly limited by its fleet capacity.

[sonofccn]

It's true that it's mostly the EU which suggests differently, but so does the student of history. (Lucas did not invent the term "stormtrooper.")

True. Stormtrooper dates back to WWI Germany elite troops if I remember my history correctly.

General Veers not being a trooper himself has precedents; more important to look at are the non-stormtrooper AT-AT crew.

I always just assumed that crews were not composed of stormtroopers , so starships and AT-ATs were commanded and operated by a differnt branch of the service. I freely admit it may be in error just that we have never seen any other groundpounders as it were except for stormtroopers. From boarding parties, to garrison duty, to guard duty they always seem picked.

Since being the Republic, the OT-era Empire has expanded by a factor of ten, from 100,000 to 1 million worlds.

Then again not all would be contributing to the empire. Alderan almost certanily didn't have a high enlistment for the Empire. Mind you I have nothing against the Empire fielding a larger army. I just don't feel the Empire could mount an army so huge that the entire Fed contribution would be entirely insigniagant.


EDIT:May have to eat my words. At the very least JMS lastest thread should be interesting reading.