WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

VS debates involving other fictional universes than Star Trek or Star Wars go here, along with technical analysis, detailed discussion, crossover scenario descriptions, and similar related stuffs.
Post Reply
Enterprise E
Bridge Officer
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:30 pm
Location: UFP Earth

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Enterprise E » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:17 pm

I just looked up "tetra" on wikipedia and I found it to be a numerical prefix that refers to the number 4. Now, I don't think that the amount of energy referred to in those broadsides is the number of joules only multiplied by 4. However, I also looked up "tera" and looked at the SI prefixes and found that tera is also written as 1000^4. I think that it is safe to say that tetrajoules is merely the Imperium way of saying terajoules.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:42 pm

There's the problem that if the source is blurring the frontier between in-universe and -out-of-universe, we may be facing some weird distortion of the original term, although that's extremely reaching.
For example, kilometres turned into kloms.
It would take a massive linguistic abuse to have ten hundred to the fourth power joules, or a thousand to the fourth power joules, turn into tetrajoules.
However, there's merit behind this idea. I mean, in some universe where the author would explicitly follow that idea, where scales of firepower were initially measured in thousand to the Xth power, then petajoules would actually be written pentajoules, as 1000^5 joules.
A sort of lingo where people don't bother going with the whole "thousand to the power blah blah", knowing that the basis is 1000.

A bit like you write .50 cal instead of 0.50 cal, cause the bit in front, the zero is useless. Now imagine this rule pushed to an extreme.
However, in-universe, I'd probably expect people using the prefixes alone at first, like "those weapons literally fire tetras under a minute."
Then, by extension to this, scientists/tech priests would still use the physical unit joule. So at first you'd get "tetras of joules" in some tech books, tetra still being a reference to the mathematical power.
Then, time passing, it would be contracted to "tetrajoules" because people wouldn't bother with the "of" bit anymore.
When you look at how modern American words are built and used, this is barely surprising. And yet the country's supposedly educated.
Now, in the setting of Warhammer 40000...

Or it's a typo. :D

General Donner
Bridge Officer
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by General Donner » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:42 pm

IMO, if "tetrajoules" shows up only once or twice, I'm pretty sure we can call it a simple spelling error. Just as Rogue Trader wrote "terrajoules" (sic) in some fluff blurb in the main rulebook. (Proofreading is not always that RPG company's strong point, it seems.) We needn't try to rationalize it unless it shows up consistently and to the exclusion of other figures.

As Mith observes, terajoules also fits eminently well with the observed effects in many cases. (e.g., a heavy cruiser is able to level whole cities with sustained bombardment in Execution Hour, while a strike cruiser is unable to destroy monsters hiding in mineshafts without Exterminatus weapons in Nightbringer.)

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:07 pm

I don't recall seeing this on here, but I think it's good to have it around:
Mr. Oragahn, post: 4863765, member: 15547 wrote:It's likely not going to be stellar much. If it's more powerful, it also likely to start from a larger sun spot.

Could we even compare Sol to VYCM, with some random extrapolation?
You might fiddle with each star's respective intensity, volume, mass and power. It would give you a long list and plenty of factors which you wouldn't know can be used linearly.
Then you'd associate them with Sol' low and high end flares, and see.

For example, quick one: VYCM's power: 4.3 e5 L_sol on the average.
With Sol's most powerful flare being 6 e25 J, if the energy of the flare related to power linearly, you'd get a most potent flare of 2.58 e31 J.

Notice, though, that it's possible the author forgot to put 'square' in front of kilometers, since I suspect he had a "normal" and random star in mind, similar to Sol.
But you'd still get an intensity in the e8 w/m² range anyway, iirc.

Still, let's say that the flare's cross section is a disc.
200 e9 meters across: 3.142 e22 m² (this one would be the high end due to a lesser area providing a greater intensity)
999 e9 meters across: 7.838 e23 m²

So the high end intensity would be, here, of 8.212 e8 W/m².

Now I don't know exactly the size of IoM ships, but I think a destroyer can be found at 1 km long, right?
Say it's 1 km long, 500 m high and 500 m wide, and the shield is a rectangular prism of such dimensions.
The shield's total surface area is 2.5 e6 m².
1.25 e6 m² for the exposed side.

That's 1026.5 e12 J, all energies considered (radiation and kinetic - matter is ejected at more than a thousand km/sec).
245.46 KT.

If you use intensity it gets better as long as you use blue giants, but of course they're on the high end side of the spectrum.
That said, a flare is not a CME. A flare lasts and sort of remains in place. Perhaps it's a baby CME that failed to "take off", I don't know.

Then, we enter the kingdom of games mechanics. Considering that it's supposed to happen immediately, within one turn, the question is how long a typical BFG tabletop game lasts?

Anyway, a Sol flare lasts between 24 and 48 hours. Although it's clear this is not how long the ship will be exposed to the flare (it would be very stupid to stay in place, you're looking at 86,400~172,800 times the power figure from above.
With the absolutely best parameters it would be 42,415,488 kilotons.

For some reason, I seem to remember that a round is supposed to be the equivalent of ten minutes. Perhaps I'm wrong, it doesn't really matter. That's 600 times the power figure, or 147,276 kilotons.
The duration for a turn isn't really stated to my knowledge, but I highly doubt anyone with half an ounce of sense is going to stay within that solar flare longer than they have to. It would probably take however long between realizing you're getting hit by a solar flare to getting out of it. With fraction of c drives I doubt it would take more than a few dozen seconds.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:39 pm

If we take the more sluggish versions, dozens of minutes wouldn't be impossible. Of course, it would presume that the ship was sitting in geosynchronous orbit, which is hardly going to happen. Most battles are dynamic and ships keep moving over vast distances.

So if you take lower intensity stars and consider that a ship will zip through a stellar flare at tens, hundreds or thousands km/s, it's not going to stay there a long time anyway.
Basically, low ends would easily be below the terajoule range in terms of total energy it's been exposed to, up to petajoules for the higher figures.
It really requires pushing all possible parameters to their maximum to start getting into the gigaton region. Of course, that's also making the result a total outlier.
Kilotons, final deal, really.

Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:00 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:If we take the more sluggish versions, dozens of minutes wouldn't be impossible. Of course, it would presume that the ship was sitting in geosynchronous orbit, which is hardly going to happen. Most battles are dynamic and ships keep moving over vast distances.

So if you take lower intensity stars and consider that a ship will zip through a stellar flare at tens, hundreds or thousands km/s, it's not going to stay there a long time anyway.
Basically, low ends would easily be below the terajoule range in terms of total energy it's been exposed to, up to petajoules for the higher figures.
It really requires pushing all possible parameters to their maximum to start getting into the gigaton region. Of course, that's also making the result a total outlier.
Kilotons, final deal, really.
Why should we assume the solar flare is bringing down the shields with pure brute force?

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:24 pm

General Donner wrote:IMO, if "tetrajoules" shows up only once or twice, I'm pretty sure we can call it a simple spelling error. Just as Rogue Trader wrote "terrajoules" (sic) in some fluff blurb in the main rulebook. (Proofreading is not always that RPG company's strong point, it seems.) We needn't try to rationalize it unless it shows up consistently and to the exclusion of other figures.

As Mith observes, terajoules also fits eminently well with the observed effects in many cases. (e.g., a heavy cruiser is able to level whole cities with sustained bombardment in Execution Hour, while a strike cruiser is unable to destroy monsters hiding in mineshafts without Exterminatus weapons in Nightbringer.)
Turns out that Penguin was wrong. He sent this to me some time ago, though I hadn't realized it at the time:
Hello Mith, I just learned that I was in error about my stating that tetrajoule means 4 joules. It appears that tetra is simply another way of saying terajoule. So I've come to apologize for saying that tetrajoule meant 4 joules and being an ass to you in that previous thread where we butted heads over this little issue. Again, I'm sorry. Anyway, if you're curious; the person who informed me of my error is Connor
Chalk that up for one point in honesty for Connor (not that his character should be on trial here). So those quotes are solid then.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:33 pm

Mith wrote:
General Donner wrote:IMO, if "tetrajoules" shows up only once or twice, I'm pretty sure we can call it a simple spelling error. Just as Rogue Trader wrote "terrajoules" (sic) in some fluff blurb in the main rulebook. (Proofreading is not always that RPG company's strong point, it seems.) We needn't try to rationalize it unless it shows up consistently and to the exclusion of other figures.

As Mith observes, terajoules also fits eminently well with the observed effects in many cases. (e.g., a heavy cruiser is able to level whole cities with sustained bombardment in Execution Hour, while a strike cruiser is unable to destroy monsters hiding in mineshafts without Exterminatus weapons in Nightbringer.)
Turns out that Penguin was wrong. He sent this to me some time ago, though I hadn't realized it at the time:
Hello Mith, I just learned that I was in error about my stating that tetrajoule means 4 joules. It appears that tetra is simply another way of saying terajoule. So I've come to apologize for saying that tetrajoule meant 4 joules and being an ass to you in that previous thread where we butted heads over this little issue. Again, I'm sorry. Anyway, if you're curious; the person who informed me of my error is Connor
Chalk that up for one point in honesty for Connor (not that his character should be on trial here). So those quotes are solid then.
Tetrajoule doesn't mean anything else than four-joule, or quadrijoule.
For example, 10 tetrajoules would mean 40 joules.
There's no definition whatsoever that makes it mean TERA-joule.

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:11 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Mith wrote:
General Donner wrote:IMO, if "tetrajoules" shows up only once or twice, I'm pretty sure we can call it a simple spelling error. Just as Rogue Trader wrote "terrajoules" (sic) in some fluff blurb in the main rulebook. (Proofreading is not always that RPG company's strong point, it seems.) We needn't try to rationalize it unless it shows up consistently and to the exclusion of other figures.

As Mith observes, terajoules also fits eminently well with the observed effects in many cases. (e.g., a heavy cruiser is able to level whole cities with sustained bombardment in Execution Hour, while a strike cruiser is unable to destroy monsters hiding in mineshafts without Exterminatus weapons in Nightbringer.)
Turns out that Penguin was wrong. He sent this to me some time ago, though I hadn't realized it at the time:
Hello Mith, I just learned that I was in error about my stating that tetrajoule means 4 joules. It appears that tetra is simply another way of saying terajoule. So I've come to apologize for saying that tetrajoule meant 4 joules and being an ass to you in that previous thread where we butted heads over this little issue. Again, I'm sorry. Anyway, if you're curious; the person who informed me of my error is Connor
Chalk that up for one point in honesty for Connor (not that his character should be on trial here). So those quotes are solid then.
Tetrajoule doesn't mean anything else than four-joule, or quadrijoule.
For example, 10 tetrajoules would mean 40 joules.
There's no definition whatsoever that makes it mean TERA-joule.
Are you sure? Why would he say otherwise? In any case, it doesn't matter. I found something that blows this whole house of gigaton cards down the fucking crapper.

Checkmate.

Koronus Battlefleet page; 133
Planetary Bombardment

Voidships in low orbit can prove to be an incredibly valuable asset to soldiers on the ground through punishing
planetary bombardments. The damage done and area affected by a Planetary Bombardment depends on the type of weapon used. Each type of weapon, macrobatteries and lance weapons, deals two different amounts of damage, one to large units and one to individuals and vehicles. Large units caught up in a planetary bombardment lose large amounts of Unit Strength as dozens or hundreds of their
personnel are snuffed out in an instant. A unit that survives a Planetary Bombardment immediately breaks and flees the battlefield unless there is an embedded Explorer who makes a successful Arduous (–40) Command Test to get the survivors under control. Anyone caught in a Planetary Bombardment takes damage as normal and with the usual benefits of armour, cover, and the individual’s Toughness Bonus. This damage cannot be dodged or parried. If they are not killed outright, they are surely at death’s door and will need immediate medical attention if they are to survive. The GM should also feel free to apply other conditions or effects, such as deafness, mental trauma, or permanent crippling, to the survivors as he sees fit.

• Lance Weapons: When used in a planetary bombardment, the initial impact area of a lance weapon is relatively
small, typically no more than a few hundred metres. Anything directly hit by a lance is completely annihilated,
with no chance of survival. However, the ensuing blast wave affects an area of roughly one square kilometre, setting buildings afire, boiling away bodies of water, and leaving little behind but ashes and molten stone. Damage: Large units 75+5d10 Unit Strength. Individuals and vehicles 5d10+10 E; Pen 6 (unless the individual is within the initial impact radius, at which point they die, and must spend a Fate Point).

• Macrobatteries: Macrobatteries saturate their target with massive, hab-sized artillery shells, missiles, seething plasma energy, or crackling las beams. Like a lance, each separate shell or energy blast affects a relatively small area of little more than a few dozen metres across, and anything directly hit is completely destroyed. However, the sheer volume of fire and the ensuing kiloton explosions, raging plasma fires, and hellish blast waves affects everything within ten square kilometres. Damage: Large Units 40+5d10 Unit Strength. Individuals and Vehicles 4d10+5; Pen 4 (unless the individual is within the initial impact radius, at which point they die, and must spend a Fate Point).

Note: The canny player will notice that there is no information supplied regarding the use of virus bombs, cyclonic
torpedoes, and other Exterminatus weapons fielded by the Imperium. These types of weapon are outside the scope of these rules, and typically beyond the grasp of even the wealthiest Rogue Trader dynasty.
I did some calcs over at Spacebattles. I'm sure it's going to get mobbed any minute now by angry 40kers screaming that I'm cherry picking my sources...but meh.
In regard to the Lances, it refers to the blast wave affecting an area roughly one square kilometer in size. Using Nukemap, I can see that the largest raidus for an air blast is 1.72 square km for a 1 kiloton blast, with a 4.6 PSI, which is obviously too big. At .45 kilotons, the blast wave fits well at 1.01 square km. Unfortunately, this is a bit of a problem, as lances are supposed to be stronger than Macrobatteries--yet the macrobatteries are rated at 1 kiloton, over double the actual yield. There are other things that support this as well, such as constant reference to "terajoule" and "tetrajoule" lance batteries. This yield is about 1-2 terajoules, so it fits in fairly well. One might also argue that since lances strike with all their energy in one spot, as opposed to macrobatteries which tend to explode or decrease in power over distance, it can deliver more energy.

It's also worth noting that the macrobatteries descriptions says this; "Like a lance, each separate shell or energy blast affects a relatively small area of little more than a few dozen meters across...", which might indicate that these shells and pulses aren't actually kiloton level, but lower and the bit of "ensuing kiloton explosions" isn't referring to singular battery shells and pulses, but rather the entirety of such a bombardment.

This can actually bring us to a rather more interesting bit. Checking at .02 kilotons (20 tons), we get that a single shell will have an explosive area of .02 square km. This is a bit low for "a few dozen meters", so I bumped it up to .06 kilotons and we get .04 square km. That's probably the lower end. Personally, I wouldn't take it up any higher than .07 square km, which gives us a yield of .14 kilotons, or 140 tons of explosives per shell, which is probably the higher end. However, this comes with its own problems, as the bombardment has to take up about 10 square kilometers, which it would fail with just seven pieces of artillery at with 140 tons each. Reducing the yield to a 100 tons alleviates this a bit and if we assume they're rounding the kiloton, it isn't a big deal. Sticking to it though, at 50 tons we get twenty shells and they more or less fit perfectly inside a 15 kiloton explosion, which would in turn is 10.25 square km, about what we want.

Of course, this is lower end. The lowest we can possibly go. Let's shoot for the stars.

Basically, we assume that all the macrobattery pieces are 1 kiloton explosions, roughly. It would still take about half a dozen of them spread out perfectly to fill the destruction of 10 square km. The downside to this is that the described blast effects are much, much too large. It's now .25 square km or 250 square meters. That's a bit more than just "a few dozen meters". But maybe they're being loose with their language. In any case, we can also take a look at the lance again. While yes, it is still limited by its air blast description, we do know that the stronger the air blast, the more powerful the effects. Therefore, we might assume that the passage is only talking about reinforced concrete and heavy metal buildings, as the Imperium does tend to use those materials more than we do for common houses these days. If we consider this to be the case, then we could increase the yield to 9 kilotons; which produces a 20 psi air blast over 1.05 square kilometers. Again, another flaw worth mentioning is the fact that these lances are often described as "terajoule". This one is a bit easier to handwave away however, as we're likely looking at them giving the ballpark figure. Saying "it's a terajoule laser" is still workable with 9 kilotons.

So, your macro batteries are ranged at 50 - 1000 tons and your lances range between .62 kilotons to 9 kilotons.
So, there you have it.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:48 pm

Has anyone taken a deep plunge into new Necron lore?

I read stuff that looks impressive.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:11 pm

Mith wrote: Are you sure? Why would he say otherwise?
Yes, it's very straightforward. You just have to look it up for any definition of the prefix tetra. That's why I tried to come with a "slang" explanation.
Can't remember what it was though. It's been a while I read this thread or typed anything about 40K.

But one could say it was a typo. Even I, knowing very well the difference, am not above making a typing mistake about such units.
In any case, it doesn't matter. I found something that blows this whole house of gigaton cards down the fucking crapper.
I did some calcs over at Spacebattles. I'm sure it's going to get mobbed any minute now by angry 40kers screaming that I'm cherry picking my sources...but meh.
In regard to the Lances, it refers to the blast wave affecting an area roughly one square kilometer in size. Using Nukemap, I can see that the largest raidus for an air blast is 1.72 square km for a 1 kiloton blast, with a 4.6 PSI, which is obviously too big. At .45 kilotons, the blast wave fits well at 1.01 square km. Unfortunately, this is a bit of a problem, as lances are supposed to be stronger than Macrobatteries--yet the macrobatteries are rated at 1 kiloton, over double the actual yield. There are other things that support this as well, such as constant reference to "terajoule" and "tetrajoule" lance batteries. This yield is about 1-2 terajoules, so it fits in fairly well. One might also argue that since lances strike with all their energy in one spot, as opposed to macrobatteries which tend to explode or decrease in power over distance, it can deliver more energy.

It's also worth noting that the macrobatteries descriptions says this; "Like a lance, each separate shell or energy blast affects a relatively small area of little more than a few dozen meters across...", which might indicate that these shells and pulses aren't actually kiloton level, but lower and the bit of "ensuing kiloton explosions" isn't referring to singular battery shells and pulses, but rather the entirety of such a bombardment.

This can actually bring us to a rather more interesting bit. Checking at .02 kilotons (20 tons), we get that a single shell will have an explosive area of .02 square km. This is a bit low for "a few dozen meters", so I bumped it up to .06 kilotons and we get .04 square km. That's probably the lower end. Personally, I wouldn't take it up any higher than .07 square km, which gives us a yield of .14 kilotons, or 140 tons of explosives per shell, which is probably the higher end. However, this comes with its own problems, as the bombardment has to take up about 10 square kilometers, which it would fail with just seven pieces of artillery at with 140 tons each. Reducing the yield to a 100 tons alleviates this a bit and if we assume they're rounding the kiloton, it isn't a big deal. Sticking to it though, at 50 tons we get twenty shells and they more or less fit perfectly inside a 15 kiloton explosion, which would in turn is 10.25 square km, about what we want.

Of course, this is lower end. The lowest we can possibly go. Let's shoot for the stars.

Basically, we assume that all the macrobattery pieces are 1 kiloton explosions, roughly. It would still take about half a dozen of them spread out perfectly to fill the destruction of 10 square km. The downside to this is that the described blast effects are much, much too large. It's now .25 square km or 250 square meters. That's a bit more than just "a few dozen meters". But maybe they're being loose with their language. In any case, we can also take a look at the lance again. While yes, it is still limited by its air blast description, we do know that the stronger the air blast, the more powerful the effects. Therefore, we might assume that the passage is only talking about reinforced concrete and heavy metal buildings, as the Imperium does tend to use those materials more than we do for common houses these days. If we consider this to be the case, then we could increase the yield to 9 kilotons; which produces a 20 psi air blast over 1.05 square kilometers. Again, another flaw worth mentioning is the fact that these lances are often described as "terajoule". This one is a bit easier to handwave away however, as we're likely looking at them giving the ballpark figure. Saying "it's a terajoule laser" is still workable with 9 kilotons.

So, your macro batteries are ranged at 50 - 1000 tons and your lances range between .62 kilotons to 9 kilotons.
So, there you have it.
Terajoule beams don't give much information about power. To obtain the power of a nuke, and yet only deliver some terajoules, a laser would need to have a power figure ~10^6 times the energy figure, and yet also not be fired for more than microseconds (or less). Otherwise, we get the same amount of energy delivered into the target, but I wouldn't count on much of a nuclear blast. More like a huge cooking, really. And still much slower than a nuclear cooking.
I think that if you fire a terajoule beam over one second, in terms of equivalent nuclear effects, you are essentially firing a stream of megajoule nukes (nuclear grenades) at a rate of 1/ µs (so you have fired a million of them in the end).
I am not sure about the nature of the blast that will be formed that way.
Surely, energy piling up tht way will probably be much more efficient at digging into a small spot, but the blast?
The shockwave would be, imho, less formidable. I wouldn't count on getting anywhere close to those 20 psi of overpressure.

It is however much more interesting when it comes to shells. They may not be of nuclear nature (although I think there are many descriptions shell variants being loaded with fusion or fission explosive I think), but we're definitely within the palatable realm of detonations, for which blasts will be closer to what nukes produce. Beside, I don't expect the shells to be less potent than good ol' TNT charges. :P

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:55 pm

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... t-11197291
“A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus
Since when missing a turn drop a ship or missile in another universe? All of 40K had been about being, at best, lost in time, most of the time in space.
In a need to reconcile that element with those sources, those other universes can only be taken as dimensional variants of realspace based on time.
The forms the live-things called Chaos, in their limited little ways of perceiving the omni-verse, swarmed and thrived in this infinite ocean of mind and emotion. The daemon moved with Stele. Waiting, waiting and watching for the moment when the thrashing and chattering of the quarry was at its peak. Only then would it strike, lapping up the absolute perfection of its fear, sinking in rending teeth, tearing it to soul- shreds.
Pg.106 Deus Sanguinius
Omni needs not mean all universes. It can mean all THE universe, the unlimited universe. In 40K, if the Warp is infinite and somehow an image, strate or mirror-something of the universe, chances are that the universe itself is infinite in some fashion, beyond what can be observed.
And there's quite a problem with Chaos gods being so easily affected by what would otherwise be one limited universe, if the realm they lived on was connected to some super-container that holds all universes, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Yes, because omni-verse is never defined, really, and the way it may be pushed by some fans would cause more problems than anything. However if it's based on time, it's better. It can be time-based variations of 1 universe.

User15046
Redshirt
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by User15046 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:08 am

If the anti gigatons is so strong, why can't you create a convincing case on Spacebattles?

Also on the topic of orbital bombardment...

Planetstrike page 4
Megatons.
Planetary invasions are urgent, swift and terrible affairs, characterized by deafening noise, bone-shattering explosions and the stench of death. Thousands of reckless and battle-hungry warriors plunge downward upon trails of flame and vapour like vengeful angels, pouring from the drop-craft and low-orbiting spaceships that darken the skies above. Megatonnes of ordinance hammer down around these skyborne warriors, their detonation so devastating that the skies themselves seem afire; red, black and blinding white like the fires of hell.
Fallen Angels
Magma bombs are likened to fusion bombs.
The eight shells struck the target area more or less simultaneously, their magma warheads detonating with the heat and force of a fusion bomb.
At a thirty kilometer distance a shock wave picks up a space marine and tosses him through the air. Crouched, his profile might be a m^2. A very powerful shock wave which likely has much further to go. Probably gigatons (a few maybe). The space marine bit is interesting, worthy of further attention --- it could turn out that this requires biggotons for a shockwave to do that at so far.

Also take note of the space marines reaction - it implies this bombardment is unusally powerful, something he had not seen before (contrast to macrocannons and lances), and was unprepared for. Interesting.
These were no simple meteors, falling in thin streaks of light before vanishing into oblivion. Nemiel counted eight separate streaks of smoke and flame, plunging down in a steep arc and converging on a common point: the heart of the forge complex, some thirty kilometers away. When they struck, the entire northern horizon blazed with terrible, white light.
Nemiel had witnessed more than one orbital bombardment in his time, but those had been blazing trials of lance fire that carved across the ground like a burning blade, or salvos of poorly aimed macro-cannon fire that saturated a target area with huge shells. He'd never been close enough to experience the fury of a barrage of bombardment cannons, and wasn't prepared for what followed.
The eight shells struck the target area more or less simultaneously, their magma warheads detonating with the heat and force of a fusion bomb. His onboard systems registered the over-pressure from the blast and had just enough time to yell, 'Get down!' before the blast wave hit.
He dropped to the ground and pressed his helmet to the pemacrete as a roaring wall of superheated air howled over him. His temperature sensors spiked, pushing into the red zone, and the force of the wind lifted him off the ground and tossed him like a toy down the narrow lane. The thunder of the blast was something he felt through his armour, reverberating down into his bones. His autosenses overloaded and shut down once to prevent permanent damage.
It was over in a matter of moments. One second the entire world felt as though it were coming apart at the seams, and the next everything was almost eerily silent. Nemiel lay on his back, trying to regain his bearings. Icons blinked on his helmet display, informing him that his autosensors and vox-unit were resetting. As his vision cleared, he saw tendrils of smoke rising from his scorched armour.
...
It was only then that Nemiel fully saw the devastation that the bombardment had wrought. An enormous column of ash and smoke rose into the sky off to the North, where the volcano and the forge's centre used to be. The rising sun tinged the climbing column of debris in shades of blood red and fiery orange, whiles closer to the ground Nemiel could see thin veins of pulsing orange, tracks of real magma flowing like blood from the volcano's shattered flanks. Fires blazed out of control from horizon to horizon, consuming the shattered husks of wrecked buildings in a vast swathe surrounding the epicenter of the blast. For all intents and purposes, the forge complex had been destroyed.
Nightbringer
Strike cruiser(?) can at least level all within a 50 kilometre radius. Probably gigatons.
Lord Admiral Tiberius had wanted to level the entire palace with orbital bombardment, but Uriel had resisted such a plan, knowing that the vast forces the Vae Victus could unleash would level everything within fifty kilometers of the palace.
Latest Core Rulebook (the same one which talks about conventional vs exterminatus bombardment, Imperial ships prefer to smash planets through brute force until they break apart)
In all, maybe a multi-hundred meter deep shaft, coupled with a square kilometer of slagged ground around according to RT. Megaton range - perhaps.
The largest of the las-weapons - such as the lance-strike batteries employed upon spacecraft of the Imperial navy - produce beams that can sear away entire hab-blocks, leaving only smoking craters hundreds of feet deep.
Execution Hour
Again hundreds of meters deep - consistent. This time it sounds as if their raking the beams along, making the energy requirements higher, but power remains the same
Armaments that could hurl energy hundreds of thousands of kilometres across space now turned their power on the planet's surface in an awesome display of destructive capability, gouging wounds hundreds of meters deep into the rock and soil of the hills in search of the silos, command bunkers and generator caverns buried there.
Lathe Worlds
Six day bombard depopulates a city world.
An entire battlefleet attended to the world, obliterating any existing life in a cataclysmic bombardment of lance and torpedo that lasted a full six days. The fleet then rested a day, searching for any evidence that anything living survived, before completing the annihilation with a firestorm cannonade that burned any remaining oxygen from the atmosphere. Satisfied with their utter eradication, the fleet departed for other combat operations. Such total devastation is normally done on the order of the Inquisition, but the lack of a more simple cyclonic torpedo attack to accomplish the task indicates otherwise. Other planetary attacks during the crusade were often as destructive, though seeking only to kill off any xzenos or rebellious armies, and not to remove all life no matter the type. Whatever their enemy might have been, the Crusade required its complete extermination and was willing to take valuable time during the war to ensure this goal to the best of their ability.
Plenty of stuff that could easily be megaton range to single gigatons at least in the bombardment cannons case (30 - 50 Km radius which levels "anything" so 20PSI, which might not be enough to throw a square meter ton object at 30Km meters through the air).
Based on those two bits, its arguable a salvo of eight magma bombs is several gigatons, which sets a ballpark for strike cruisers and battlebarges.

User15046
Redshirt
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by User15046 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:34 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... t-11197291
“A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus
Warp [interdimensional missile], bypasses shields and armour iirc.

sonofccn
Starship Captain
Posts: 1639
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:23 pm
Location: Sol system, Earth,USA

Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by sonofccn » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:53 pm

Magos wrote:If the anti gigatons is so strong, why can't you create a convincing case on Spacebattles?
Well speaking only of my own opinion I'd argue for some on spacebattles, 40K possesing the "Biggatons" is an artical of faith tanamount to religion.
Magos wrote:Planetstrike page 4
Megatons.
Well one issue is megatons are hardly conductive for use as support fire unless the "hammer down around" is really far away.

Second "Megatonnes of ordinance" as opposed to megatonne ordinance or megatonne warheads suggests they are speaking of the supporting bombardment in total rather than individual "shells". That would also help distrubte and disperse the "Megatonnes" in support of the "thousands" of "battle-hungry warriors".
Magos wrote:At a thirty kilometer distance a shock wave picks up a space marine and tosses him through the air. Crouched, his profile might be a m^2. A very powerful shock wave which likely has much further to go. Probably gigatons (a few maybe).
For clarification this was some production center or complex built in or near to a volcano correct?

Also for clarification, there are still buildings, "husks", surviving less then thirty kilometers from the blast site and "Fires blazed from horizon to horizon" with "thin veins" of molten lava flowing among it from the "shattered flanks" of the volcano implying said volcano, while badly damaged, is semi-intact and not a giant crater?
Magos wrote:Nightbringer
Strike cruiser(?) can at least level all within a 50 kilometre radius. Probably gigatons.
For what its worth punching it in Wong's old nuke calculator 350 megatons is already tickling an air blast radius of 50 kilometers. And that is for a solitary, singularly, placed bomb rather than multiple which likely would have been fired.
The largest of the las-weapons - such as the lance-strike batteries employed upon spacecraft of the Imperial navy - produce beams that can sear away entire hab-blocks, leaving only smoking craters hundreds of feet deep.
Armaments that could hurl energy hundreds of thousands of kilometres across space now turned their power on the planet's surface in an awesome display of destructive capability, gouging wounds hundreds of meters deep into the rock and soil of the hills in search of the silos, command bunkers and generator caverns buried there.
Magos wrote:Again hundreds of meters deep - consistent
Issue through the first quote speaks of "smoking craters hundreds of feet deep, as almost a by product. Having first to sear away an entire hab-block. The second speaks of the effect as a direct result of their action. Then there is the issue that, as this is a bombardment, we do not know if it is a singular armament gouging hundreds of meter deep wounds or several or indeed what specific "Armaments", at least in the section you posted.
Magos wrote:Lathe Worlds
Six day bombard depopulates a city world.
Impressively they consumed/burned all the free standing oxygen from the atmosphere, through said atmosphere remained, through likely this was at least partly fueled by runaway combustion of planetary elements and assets independent of the bombarding fleet.

Also of interest is the fact the battlefleet, to some extent or another, maintain sufficent stores to fire for six plus days.

Post Reply