WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:22 am

The history of Valhalla is most interesting.
Now, this is from Lexicanum, so I'll try to find direct references later on.
History

When it was first settled, Valhalla was a verdant world of forests and broad fertile plans, a paradise compared to the frozen ice world it would become. In legends, the only history that survives of the early days of its colonisation, Valhalla was a world perfect for human settlement.

Ten thousand years ago however, the planet was struck by an immense comet which forever destroyed the paradise of the world. The defence lasers surrounding the planet had blasted the comet with shot after shot, but only succeeded in breaking off fragments of the comet which was found to consist of almost pure iron. A mile-wide fragment of the comet struck the northern continent, causing great earthquakes and destruction. The main comet hit the vast ocean which spanned most of the planet.

The boiling seas, and the pall of vapour and dust blocked off the sunlight. The temperature of the planet fell to freezing levels. Most significantly the comet had knocked the planet from its orbit, and over a period of ten years the planet spun eccentrically, drifting fifteen million miles away from its sun. By this point the planet had entirely changed. The vast majority of life had been destroyed, and the whole planet was covered in glaciers and a frozen ocean.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Valhalla

EDIT:

Confirmed.

Image

The planet's laser defenses didn't manage to destroy the comet. They cleaved some small fragments.
The results didn't turn the planet into a lava world but actually threw it into a nuclear winter. The impact itself moved the planet away, which is quite at odds with the mass necessary to do so and yet the lack of thermal effects aside from "boiling seas".

The laser defenses themselves would have been completely useless if they were meant to be ground defenses: they wouldn't even have the range to fire at the comet before it would already slam into the atmosphere. At that point it would already be too late, and the weapons' themselves, with the sheer residual heat from the usual inflated claims, would have torched the planet no matter what.
So they have to be orbital defenses. Meaning they had enough time to lock onto the large ball of solid iron and fire again and again. Not to say that it would be quite curious that 10,000 years ago, a whole planet could be surprised by such a comet without being able to come with a planet to assault it repeatedly.

Take it as you want. Either it's nonsense fizix, or another proof that defense weapons supposed capable of destroying warships, couldn't blast a block of iron that didn't turn the planet into a lava ball.
The oceans still were there, as the freezing was progressive. 99% of life died though.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:17 pm

Shamelessly picked from SBC:
Rogue Trader: Slaves of Darkness wrote: The warp is also an important factor in the survival of the human race. Spacecrafts, capable of voyaging thousands of light years in a matter of days, travel across the warp.
Adeptus Titanicus wrote: By doing so [warp drive], a spacecraft can move hundreds of thousands of light years in only a few hours.
Most definitely PLOT! speed, but could it be reconciled with other slower feats, despite the generalizing phrasing, as the measured time being the time on the ship flying through the Warp?

I also didn't know that the Space Fleet chart was reused in the 140th issue of White Dwarf (1991).

EDIT : cleaned up the quotations.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by General Donner » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:05 am

Those are both from Connor -- I recognize his characteristic misspelling. They're high up on his old "miscellaneous numbers" thread at SDN.

I don't currently have Titanicus available. The full quote for the other one (Slaves to Darkness, p 212) goes like this:
Chaos And Warpspace
Warpspace is a parallel reality to the space of the Imperium, a universe devoid of recognisable matter and life, with its own fluid laws of time and space. Warpspace is a random, unstructured dimension of energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of matter and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warpspace is Chaos; Chaos is the stuff of warpspace. The two are indivisible.

The warp is also an important factor in the survival of the human race. Spacecraft, capable of voyaging thousands of light years in a matter of days, travel across the warp. By such fragile means Humanity is bound together in a single Imperium, led by the Master of Man, the Emperor. The Emperor's will may be mighty, but his reach is long only because warpspace may be crossed by his fleets.
It gives no more context for the number, I'm afraid. Other bits in the same chapter talk about warpspace screwing with time, and perceptions of time being odd*, but not right here. The passage on its own might imply it's the "in-warp" travel time ("travel across the warp"), but I wouldn't base any case on it. (Especially not at SBC.)

OTOH, given what we generally know about warp travel (both other examples and the tables from Space Fleet and Rogue Trader, which are specifically average values unlike one-off events in various books) I think we should generally call these outliers in any case. Either they're talking about in-warp speed, or they're very rare and unreliable high end cases. IIRC even Connor conceeded as much when he brought them up.






*eg, same page:
Some warpstorms end quickly, having spent their fury in relentless turbulence that lasts moments or millennia. These are the lesser Powers of Chaos, eternal and ever-changing. They coalesce from the warp for a brief time, and are capable of existence for only a flicker of time.

page 213:
A psyker can, for example, often feel the wake of an arriving spacecraft before the vessel has arrived. Other pressures and movements within the warp can be sensed, often before, during, or long after the events which caused them. Time in the warp appears to run at 'right angles' or in the 'wrong' direction to observers in real space.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:05 pm

Here come more details, this time picked from wikipedia, in order to highlight my former musings about the truth behind the 90/110 petawatt core designation:
Wikipedia, Z Machines, Prospects wrote: A $60 million (raised to $90 million) retrofit program called ZR (Z Refurbished) was announced in 2004 to increase its power by 50%. The Z machine was dismantled in July 2006 for this upgrade, including the installation of newly designed hardware and components and more powerful Marx generators. The de-ionized water section of the machine has been reduced to about half the previous size while the oil section has been expanded significantly in order to house larger intermediate storage lines (i-stores) and new laser towers, which used to sit in the water section. The refurbishment was completed in October 2007. The newer Z machine can now shoot 27 million amperes (instead of 18 million amperes previously) in 95 nanoseconds. The radiated power has been raised to 350 terawatts and the X-ray energy output to 2.7 megajoules. However the maximum temperature the new version may reach with the same record holder stainless steel wire-array liner used in 2005 is not yet known.

Sandia's roadmap includes another Z machine version called ZN (Z Neutron) to test higher yields in fusion power and automation systems. ZN is planned to give between 20 and 30 MJ of hydrogen fusion power with a shot per hour using a Russian Linear Transformer Driver (LTD) replacing the current Marx generators. After 8 to 10 years of operation, ZN would become a transmutation pilot plant capable of a fusion shot every 100 seconds.

The next step planned would be the Z-IFE (Z-inertial fusion energy) test facility, the first true z-pinch driven prototype fusion power plant. It is suggested it would integrate Sandia's latest designs using LTDs. Sandia labs recently proposed a conceptual 1 petawatt (10^15 watts) LTD Z-pinch power plant, where the electric discharge would reach 70 million amperes.

One should however note all these announced fusion systems make use of the X-ray radiation to heat a hohlraum in order to indirectly ignite fusion reaction of isotopes of hydrogen. The unexpected ultra high temperature achieved recently is not taken into account yet for any possible use of direct aneutronic fusion reactions (p–7Li or p–11B) which, if proven practicable, would imply reconsidering some proposed designs.

The ultra-high temperatures reached in 2006 (2.66 to 3.7 billion kelvins) are much higher than those required for the classical hydrogen, deuterium and tritium fusion previously considered. They could allow, in theory if not in practice, the fusion of light hydrogen atoms with heavier atoms such as lithium or boron. These two possible fusion reactions do not produce neutrons, and thus no radioactivity or nuclear waste, so they open for the first time the possibility of human-made clean aneutronic fusion.
Aside from the fact that the traditional nuclear industry does its best to put a lid on the results obtained with those systems, we do see how power plants' power figures don't necessarily correspond to what they deliver over one second. For instance, we're looking at "pulses" over several nanoseconds (although the principle of the fusion is non pulsed), and we have no way of knowing if the WH40K reference points at a core working over one full second continuously. A reason why there could not be a continuous production of power would be related to heating.
IIRC, there's a reference I posted somewhere here about mere cables used to transmit power over a factory sector. So those problems of heating would not surprise me in the slightest.
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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:28 pm

Right from the latest WH40K firepower thread at SBC:
[url=http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=6326479&postcount=209]The Reaper[/url], on Jul 26th 2011, 4:13am wrote: Blood Gorgons says they can "dismantle continents"
“Like the hand of a god it reared its fingers across the moon’s horizon. Four thousand metres away, the cityscapes of twinkling lance batteries, torpedo banks and gun turrets welcomed them with a taut, breathless tension. Although the broadsides were capable of dismantling continents, they were far too ponderous to harm the Harvester. Cloaked by refraction, the dark eldar ship pierced the Cauldron Born’s scans, registering as nothing more than tiny space debris.”
Pg.163 Blood Gorgons
Dismantling, just to avoid saying destroying, for the sake of newnismisity?


But the best stuff comes next.
[url=http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=6328881&postcount=218]The Reaper[/url], on Jul 26th 2011, 5:30pm wrote:
Here is another, more quantifiable feat.
"Sergeant Magron now could see for himself why the lieutenant had given the order to deploy. He had fought engagements in space before, but then there had always been a sun at the heart of the system. Here the scene was lit by starlight from the massed stars of the galaxy, the nearest of which were light-years off. Blotting out a patch of that light was a planetoid about the size of Jupiter's small inner moon, Io. How it had got here - whether by escape from some planetary system millions of years ago, or by forming in interstellar space in some freakish manner - no one would ever seek to know. Its value was strategic: it was roughly equidistant between a number of settled star systems, and so was an ideal place for a military base. Long before the rebellion, the World Eaters Legion had taken possession of this lightless, frozen world and had excavated a stronghold deep within it. But now the World Eaters were among the blasphemer traitors. They had transferred their allegiance to Horus, the renegade warmaster and therefore were anathema. To seize or extirpate the interstellar base was the Dark Angels' objective. A battleship, three cruisers and any number of improvised spacecraft had formed a staggered crescent around one half of the ancient planetoid and were sending massed laser fire slicing into its surface. Nothing else would have sufficed for the task; thermonuclear bombardment would no more than have dented the blacked-out landscape. Only high-density lasers carried enough energy to dig through the planetary crust and penetrate the mantle beneath, carving up the little world as if it were a ripe melon. The battleship - recommissioned as the Imperial Vengeance - was at the centre of the crescent, a huge cathedral-like form shrouded in intricately worked turrets. Most of the planetoid's defence lasers must have been put out of action in the first salvo; only a few brilliant beams still stabbed upward from their armoured keeps, wavering to and fro in search of targets. Just the same, the scratch fleet's commander had miscalculated, for the battle crescent was already being broken up, under attack from another quarter. Round from the other side of the planetoid, ascending from what must have been subterranean hangars secretly excavated, had come a fleet of heretic ships the Imperial planners had surely believed to be elsewhere! Now the two forces were manoeuvring, the Imperial fleet forced to defend itself even while keeping up the laser bombardment of the minor world below. Plasma drivers ripped through the ether, tearing ships apart. The vast bulk of the Imperial Vengeance hove close by, blotting out the stars, a gargantuan turreted shape gouting plasma as well as planet-targeted lasers, smaller rebel ships gathering round it like sharks round a whale, while in its shadow the battle-barge seemed no more than a beetle. The cloaked lieutenant was ignoring the bulking, blazing battleship, the flashes of battle visible over a range of thousands of miles. He was pointing down towards the World Eater planetoid. Brother-Sergeant Magron switched to visor magnification and directed his gaze likewise. Combat assault craft, small, lumpy images even at maxmag, were rising from the surface of the planetoid. World Eater Space Marines, ready to take on even a battleship in close order combat!
...
It was at that moment that Magron noticed something happening on the planetoid below. A glow was emanating from it, becoming brighter and brighter. Despite the raging space battle ranging over the planetoid, the Imperial task force had managed to sustain the laser barrage. Now it was working, and what was more, it was working better than its directors had planned. The beams had scythed through the planet, had cut aside the crust and had delved deep into the mantle in search of the deep keeps. And now, what had not been intended - they had penetrated to the hot liquid metal core of the planetoid. The little world was not like other planets and moons. It was alone, lacking a parent sun or brother worlds to flex it with gravitational tidal forces. So it had never been tempered by a dynamic environment. It had never been forced to settle and cool into long-term stability. Now it was paying the price for its aeons-long inertness. The pent-up power of the core, which had lain quiet for so long, encased in its thick shell of rock, was roused. It seethed and moved. And it had more than its own energy now. The high-density lasers had added theirs to it, turning it into a bomb. Already partly disintegrated by the barrage, the planet exploded. It all happened tremendously fast. The core glowed and swelled, lighting up the darkness, demolishing the crust and mantle and hurling their fragments outward mingled with sprays and streams of flaming, molten iron, a vast outpouring of high-velocity matter and total destruction.
...
When his visor cleared, the first thing Magron saw was the ruddy face of the World Eater sergeant, mouth exultantly agape, as if revelling in the annihilation of his own base. A red glow suffused the scene, coming from the still-expanding mass of the exploding planet below them. Magron staved off the World Eater's next rush, at the same time snatching glances around him. Several of his brothers had been despatched during their sudden blindness, betrayed by their own equipment. Some of the Traitor Marines, however, had met the glare unprotected and were dazzled, unable to see clearly. The strident voice of the lieutenant came through his communicator from one of the other rafts: 'Brother Sergeant! Brother Angels! Our end has come! Pray for your souls! Pray to the Emperor!' The first wave of that explosion began to reach them, the smaller fragments, the gravel, the tiny shards of rock, that had been flung outward at higher velocity than the more massive pieces of the disintegrated world. It was a preliminary warning of the greater flood of stone and metal that was coming. Magron heard a rattling against the exterior of his armour. Too late, he realised he had allowed his attention to be distracted. He was open to the traitor sergeant's next lunge. Then a rock the size of his fist took off the World Eater's head. Similar missiles were slamming into the assault carriers, wrecking them completely, shoving them back towards the World Eaters' original destination, the Imperial Vengeance. Marines of both chapters were crushed as high-velocity rocks smashed into them, cracking open their armour, flinging them into space broken and crippled. Even that was but a foretaste of the deluge to come, the broken-up masses of the one-time planetoid's crust and mantle, the still- molten spilled core, the raving glowing vapour, which now overwhelmed the space battle which was still in progress, spouting plasma and laser fire even in the face of the catastrophe. Aghast, Sergeant Magron watched as a huge chunk of black basalt, as big as the Imperial Vengeance itself, struck the task force's turret-encrusted capital ship. The impact shattered them both. Fractured adamantium, twisted metal, broken rock and superheated steam receded into the darkness in a writhing turmoil. Something crashed into the assault craft and carried it away into the darkness too, away from the great torrent of debris that smashed both spacefleets to nothing. Had Sergeant Magron not been a Space Marine the initial impact might have killed him instantly, but hewa s a Space Marine, with his specially hardened body. So he survived, to be briefly carried along in the wreckage until he became dislodged from his footing and went flying off, spinning slowly end over end, the stars apparently spinning about him. For a long time faint glimmers - chunks of basalt, globules of cooling metal or fragments of spaceship - went sailing by at the edges of his enhanced vision, against a background of spiralling stars. Finally there was nothing. Nothing to show that there ever had been a solitary interstellar planet, or a base buried deep within it, or a task force, or a battle in space. No voices, whether friend or foe, loyalist or traitor, came through his communicator. No one else had survived to answer his calls, he was adrift in space, with no other human being within ten light-years. He was utterly, completely alone."
Pgs.51-53 Eye of Terror
The next day, came the priceless comments.
the atom wrote:
Dear god.... Cutting open the mantle? Sub-gigaton my hairy ass. I should send these to Conner and see if he can calc them.
Captain Orsai wrote: He's seen it before.
white_rabbit wrote:
the atom wrote: Dear god.... Cutting open the mantle? Sub-gigaton my hairy ass. I should send these to Conner and see if he can calc them.
You should realise that most of this stuff has been seen countless times.
There is probably a post much like yours from five years ago saying "wow, boom!"
Also, I can't say I'm astonished Mith hasn't come back, he's a dishonest little twerp at the best of times.
Can't see the comedy yet?

Isn't that same "Eye of Terror" from where I got my evidence of mass lightening tech on the Imperium's side? :)
Which somehow ended as inadmissible evidence, when talking about the obvious problems raised by the mechanics behind the Nova Cannon and pretty much any big ass mass driver that fires complicated projectiles stuff with mere explosives at high fractions of c and still ignore momentum upon impact?
What's terrific is how no one flinches at the read of such a story. I mean, right, apparently since Connor already knows about it, no need to double check his observations, right?
Didn't you read? Connor already knows about that material, grovelling mortal. The Revelation is upon us!

Right. Let's go through this again, now with orange commentary:
"Sergeant Magron now could see for himself why the lieutenant had given the order to deploy. He had fought engagements in space before, but then there had always been a sun at the heart of the system. Here the scene was lit by starlight from the massed stars of the galaxy, the nearest of which were light-years off. A very cold place, for sure. Blotting out a patch of that light was a planetoid about the size of Jupiter's small inner moon, Io. Mm... Io, 0.286 times Earth's radius, 0.082 times its surface area, 0.023 times its volume and 0.015 its mass. How it had got here - whether by escape from some planetary system millions of years ago, or by forming in interstellar space in some freakish manner - no one would ever seek to know. Its value was strategic: it was roughly equidistant between a number of settled star systems, and so was an ideal place for a military base. How the frak can a dead planetoid lost in the middle of nowhere be of any value instead of, say, a mere space station where you don't have to worry about gravity? Or is it because of its ores? You bet it must be something like that. Long before the rebellion, the World Eaters Legion had taken possession of this lightless, frozen world and had excavated a stronghold deep within it. Oh wait. It's of strategical value because someone built a bunkered base down there. Yeah, the thickness of the rock layer above said base is the value. But now the World Eaters were among the blasphemer traitors. They had transferred their allegiance to Horus, the renegade warmaster and therefore were anathema. To seize or extirpate the interstellar base was the Dark Angels' objective. A battleship, three cruisers and any number of improvised spacecraft had formed a staggered crescent around one half of the ancient planetoid and were sending massed laser fire slicing into its surface. Nothing else would have sufficed for the task; thermonuclear bombardment would no more than have dented the blacked-out landscape. That's really the golden part. It's flat out said that thermonuclears would have sucked big times to dig a hole. Actually that's a fair statement, since nukes, contrary to directed energy weapons, would have a poor capacity regarding ground coupling, although it could be increased with heavier casings. Eventually, one could actually consider digging a hole by firing multiple 3 digits multi-megaton nukes, eventually a tad focused, and with a heavy casing, so much as to transfer a high amount of energy into the materials that compose that casing and therefore get some nice momentum out of the explosion, in order to produce a larger and deeper crater. Of course, digging down the crust would still require a high amount of such thermonuclear weapons. However, if wankers were right, in that the Imperium could throw gigaton/teraton level nukes at will, such a statement would make no sense. What this means is that the Imperium's thermonuclear/fusion "explosives" are simply nowhere that powerful. Unsurprisingly, this rather crucial fact would get totally ignored. No matter how it sticks out like a bright neon in a desert during a pitch black night. Only high-density lasers carried enough energy to dig through the planetary crust and penetrate the mantle beneath, carving up the little world as if it were a ripe melon. It is of no surprise. Not only the lance weapons generally are counted as part of the most powerful offense systems, they all totally focus their energy into the ground. However, there would be little to expect from a beam weapon if true power wasn't present. But the text is quite clear that the weapon will dig a hole, and that can only happen if material is violently vaporized, whether the beam is pulsed or not. The "high density" may suggest a high energy density, or just a large concentration of photons. Or another note, Io's lithosphere (crust + upper mantle) is lately estimated to be between 12 and 40 km thick. The battleship - recommissioned as the Imperial Vengeance - was at the centre of the crescent, a huge cathedral-like form shrouded in intricately worked turrets. Most of the planetoid's defence lasers must have been put out of action in the first salvo; only a few brilliant beams still stabbed upward from their armoured keeps, wavering to and fro in search of targets. Just the same, the scratch fleet's commander had miscalculated, for the battle crescent was already being broken up, under attack from another quarter. Round from the other side of the planetoid, ascending from what must have been subterranean hangars secretly excavated, had come a fleet of heretic ships the Imperial planners had surely believed to be elsewhere! Now the two forces were manoeuvring, the Imperial fleet forced to defend itself even while keeping up the laser bombardment of the minor world below. What I'm going to say might sound obvious to some people blessed with common sense, but wouldn't Connor's calculations leading to multi-teraton lances mean that that distraction represented by those heretics' ships already be irrelevant by now? Wouldn't the crust be a gaping hole on the opening volley? Plasma drivers ripped through the ether, tearing ships apart. The vast bulk of the Imperial Vengeance hove close by, blotting out the stars [/literalism], a gargantuan turreted shape gouting plasma as well as planet-targeted lasers, smaller rebel ships gathering round it like sharks round a whale, while in its shadow the battle-barge seemed no more than a beetle. Oh, so the ship that actually does the damage is one of those few supersize ships that actually manage to dwarf a Battle Barge, which depending on the fan whom you ask the question to, either is above 1 km long or perhaps 5 km long? Are these fools going to pretend that this demonstration shall be understood as a presentation of standard firepower capacity when an actually more or less standardized Battle Barge is of the size of an insect in comparison?? Why am I having shades of the Death Star here? The cloaked lieutenant was ignoring the bulking, blazing battleship, the flashes of battle visible over a range of thousands of miles. He was pointing down towards the World Eater planetoid. Brother-Sergeant Magron switched to visor magnification and directed his gaze likewise. Combat assault craft, small, lumpy images even at maxmag, were rising from the surface of the planetoid. World Eater Space Marines, ready to take on even a battleship in close order combat! And what were they going to fire? Even the thermonuclear weapons of the fleet couldn't scratch the planet, and they're obviously going to be huge and numerous. And these guys think that their combat assault crafts would stand a chance against a ship that could ditch... what? At the very least multi-gigaton firepower and therefore come with a similar shielding/armour capacity? Or that must be the honour thing.
... There was some snipped material that might have given us an idea of how long this bombardment took place. Accident?
It was at that moment that Magron noticed something happening on the planetoid below. A glow was emanating from it, becoming brighter and brighter. The same Magron who used visor maginification on maxmag. Is he finally seeing a large lake of lava? Despite the raging space battle ranging over the planetoid, the Imperial task force had managed to sustain the laser barrage. Now it was working, and what was more, it was working better than its directors had planned. The beams had scythed through the planet, had cut aside the crust and had delved deep into the mantle in search of the deep keeps. Point to WH4nKers, these Space Marines had built their lair in a place of great pressures and hot material. Well, if it's anywhere like Io. However, if it's solid, like if the planetoid's internal structure had more to do with the Moon, they'd have to keep digging and digging before actually reaching anything molten. And now, what had not been intended - they had penetrated to the hot liquid metal core of the planetoid. The little world was not like other planets and moons. It was alone, lacking a parent sun or brother worlds to flex it with gravitational tidal forces. So that actually means no heat production via tidal dissipation. So it had never been tempered by a dynamic environment. It had never been forced to settle and cool into long-term stability. So what? This planetoid hasn't lost an inch of rotational kinetic energy? Now it was paying the price for its aeons-long inertness. The pent-up power of the core, which had lain quiet for so long, encased in its thick shell of rock, was roused. It seethed and moved. And it had more than its own energy now. The high-density lasers had added theirs to it, turning it into a bomb. Sorry but... what? Since when a beam that's like good enough to dig through the crust of a planet is now capable of turning a core into a bomb? There's certainly a property to these lasers that we didn't consider, for they can nullify gravity quite easily. Already partly disintegrated by the barrage, the planet exploded. Ok so now the lances and plasma drivers could partly disintegrate the planetoid. Why, we've jumped to petatons in no time flat there. Raised several orders of magnitude so the thing blows up ... nothing is said about, I don't know, the lack of pressure. Planets in WH40K have a weird tendency to blow up despite not being ascribed a special composition. It all happened tremendously fast. The core glowed and swelled, lighting up the darkness, demolishing the crust and mantle and hurling their fragments outward mingled with sprays and streams of flaming, molten iron, a vast outpouring of high-velocity matter and total destruction. So the core does explode, demolishes the mantle and the crust, and scatters fragments of them, and all that goes tremendously fast. WH40K VS Physics, Yes, it's that time again.
...
When his visor cleared, the first thing Magron saw was the ruddy face of the World Eater sergeant, mouth exultantly agape, as if revelling in the annihilation of his own base. A red glow suffused the scene, coming from the still-expanding mass of the exploding planet below them. No doubt, we're dealing with some fancy fast planetary mass scattering there. However, they can see the debris coming at them, from the exploding planet beneath. Magron staved off the World Eater's next rush, at the same time snatching glances around him. Several of his brothers had been despatched during their sudden blindness, betrayed by their own equipment. Some of the Traitor Marines, however, had met the glare unprotected and were dazzled, unable to see clearly. The strident voice of the lieutenant came through his communicator from one of the other rafts: 'Brother Sergeant! Brother Angels! Our end has come! Pray for your souls! Pray to the Emperor!' The first wave of that explosion began to reach them, the smaller fragments, the gravel, the tiny shards of rock, that had been flung outward at higher velocity than the more massive pieces of the disintegrated world. It was a preliminary warning of the greater flood of stone and metal that was coming. Magron heard a rattling against the exterior of his armour. Too late, he realised he had allowed his attention to be distracted. He was open to the traitor sergeant's next lunge. Then a rock the size of his fist took off the World Eater's head. Similar missiles were slamming into the assault carriers, wrecking them completely, shoving them back towards the World Eaters' original destination, the Imperial Vengeance. Marines of both chapters were crushed as high-velocity rocks smashed into them, cracking open their armour, flinging them into space broken and crippled. Even that was but a foretaste of the deluge to come, the broken-up masses of the one-time planetoid's crust and mantle, the still- molten spilled core, the raving glowing vapour, which now overwhelmed the space battle which was still in progress, spouting plasma and laser fire even in the face of the catastrophe. Aghast, Sergeant Magron watched as a huge chunk of black basalt, as big as the Imperial Vengeance itself, struck the task force's turret-encrusted capital ship. The impact shattered them both. Fractured adamantium, twisted metal, broken rock and superheated steam receded into the darkness in a writhing turmoil. Interesting that an impact that only shatters the large fragment... ends shattering the capital ship as well. Something crashed into the assault craft and carried it away into the darkness too, away from the great torrent of debris that smashed both spacefleets to nothing. Had Sergeant Magron not been a Space Marine the initial impact might have killed him instantly, but he was a Space Marine, with his specially hardened body. So he survived, to be briefly carried along in the wreckage until he became dislodged from his footing and went flying off, spinning slowly end over end, the stars apparently spinning about him. For a long time faint glimmers - chunks of basalt, globules of cooling metal or fragments of spaceship - went sailing by at the edges of his enhanced vision, against a background of spiralling stars. Finally there was nothing. Nothing to show that there ever had been a solitary interstellar planet, or a base buried deep within it, or a task force, or a battle in space. No voices, whether friend or foe, loyalist or traitor, came through his communicator. No one else had survived to answer his calls, he was adrift in space, with no other human being within ten light-years. He was utterly, completely alone."

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:43 pm

An FTL speed reference here.
The Inquisition War Omnibus wrote: Chapter Twelve

The Eye was five thousand light years distant from the area of truespace corresponding to that hulk adrift in the warp.
Fifteen days warp-time, as it turned out.
Meanwhile, perhaps two years would have passed by in the real universe.
2,500 c.
Time dilation ratio of 1 day in the Warp for 48.7 truespace days.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:42 pm

Picked form Deadguy2001's post at SBC:
"When the time came to leave Terra, it was a great moment. Not even the triumph at Ullanor can compare with the moment of grief as an entire world wept to see the architect of Unification depart. The alliance of Terra and Mars was complete, and the Mechanicum had outdone itself, building fleets of ships to allow the Emperor to take to the stars and complete his Great Crusade of Unity. The skies over Terra were thick with starships, hundreds of thousands of them organised into more than seven thousand fleets, reserve groups and secondary, follow-on forces. It was an armada designed to conquer the galaxy and that was exactly what we set out to do.”
- A Thousand Sons, pg. 383
Horus Rising Page 315
The delegation was led by a high administratrix called Aenid Rathbone. She was a tall, slender, handsome woman with redhair and pale, high-boned features, and her manner was exact-ing. The Council of Terra had decreed that all expedition and crusade forces, all primarchs, all commanders, and all governors of compliant world-systems should begin raising and collecting taxes from their subject planets in order to bolster the increasingfiscal demands of the expanding Imperium. All she insisted on talking about was the collection of tithes.

‘One world cannot support and maintain such a gigantic un-dertaking singlehanded,’ she explained to the Warmaster inslightly over-shrill tones. ‘Terra cannot shoulder this burden alone. We are masters of a thousand worlds now, a thousand thousand. The Imperium must begin to support itself.’

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:26 pm

This one comes every once in a while when taking a look at ship building rates in 40K. It's literally up there in terms of production speed, in contradiction with other examples and with a general statement, all of which were already provided earlier on at SFJN.
Now, let's reread that one and try to understand what is implied there.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=145
White Rabbit wrote: The ship was constructed in an orbital dock.
Battlefleet Gothic
" The primitive tribesmen dwelling there were influenced to mine and smelt metals which were then presented for "sacrifice" at sky temples established by the Planetary Lord. The raw materials were then lifted into orbit at each vernal equinox."
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Unloth

Unloth is the Feral World where the Lunar Class Cruiser Lord Daros was constructed. There, the Governor influenced the local tribes to mine and smelt metals to be "sacrificed" at "sky temples". Over the course of eleven years, enough raw material was collected in this way to complete construction of the Lord Daros, at which point the tribes were treated to the sight of a new star moving across the sky as the ship ignited its plasma drives and flew out of the system to join Battlefleet Obscurus.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=155
Captain Orsai wrote: The HDMS Lord Daros was constructed over the feral world Unloth in eleven years. There are of course other examples which aren't quite as impressive (like the Retribution-class HDMS Hammer of Righteousness taking nigh-on a thousand years to build; mind you, that was probably the management's (since there's an R in the month) fault).
Even going with a ship massing just 10 million tonnes, that's an average of 909,091 tonnes per year over 11 years.
The metal obtained from the raw ore is but a small portion of all that's mined.
Simply put, the inhabitants of a feral world were convinced into mining nearly one million tonne a year of materials needed to build a warship.
It goes without saying that we're strictly speaking of the metal here. We won't even hamper the estimations with other parameters such as fuel or plastics for the ship.
Surely, this amount of work also requires a level of organization which can only be achieved by influencing minds and therefore not requiring much regulation on the ground, via normal "bureaucracy", if we can say that.
But these people still need to move ore around, they need tools, they need wood, they need to eat, and that many people must have something or someone collecting food for them. Meaning that a significant amount of the population of said world would be dedicated to hunting or farming.
As per any old society model, that leaves little amounts of people who could mine ore.

I'll try to get some clearer numbers on the amount of ore that's required to mine out to get one tonne of, say, iron, from some random piece of rock, from the richest samples to the poorer ones.
I'll also try get some info on mining production of various civilization from the past and see how many millions of men and women would be required to work together to produced the annual tithe for ship building.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:48 pm

OK, time to return to that "Prospero Burns" quote.

Below the world burned too. The fleet’s bombardment had torched Prospero, and ignited the atmosphere. Spiral patterns of soot and particulated debris thousands of leagues across cycled like hurricanes. Giant columns of plasma energy had roasted all vegetation and wildlife, and turned the seas into scalding banks of steam and toxic gas. Vast las bombardments from the heavy batteries had evaporated river deltas and flash-thawed ice-caps. Kinetic munitions and gravity bombs had fallen like Helwinter hail, and planted new forests of bright liquid flame that sprouted and grew, spread and died back, all in a few minutes. Shoals of targeted missiles, silver-swift as midsummer fish running from a catchers net, delivered warheads that blasted the soil into the sky and thickened the air into poisonous soup. Magma bombs and atomics, the godhammers, had altered the geography itself. Mountains had been levelled , plains split, valleys thrown up into new hills of rubble and spoil. Prospero’s crust had fractured. We saw the throbbing, glowing tracks of its mortal wounds, brand new canyons of fire that split entire continents. This was the grand alchemy of war. Heat and light, and energy and fission that transformed water into steam, rock into dust, sand into glass, bone into gas. Swirling mushroom clouds, as tall as our Aett on Fenris, punctuated the horizon we rushed towards.”-Prospero Burns
The beginning of this excerpt presents the end result of the bombardment. Notice that the powerful beam weapons (obviously lances, the most powerful particle weapons most ships have) are said to have "roasted all vegetation and wildlife."
As usual, that's a rather useless point to make when your firepower supposedly leaves craters dozens of kilometers wide and more, really.
Then seas are evaporated. That's definitely returning the firepower up there. Huge amounts of gigatons, at the very least would be necessary.

But in this rollercoaster of descriptions, we suddenly fall back to shy yields when "vast las bombardments from the heavy batteries" have evaporated river deltas and flash-thawed ice-caps.
Again: Vast bombardments.
We're not done yet. We've got a description of dumb projectiles (kinetic) and the destruction they bring to the world below. It sounds impressive, very impressive, until you read that those same weapons "planted new forests of bright liquid flame that sprouted and grew, spread and died back, all in a few minutes."
We're back at a high level of firepower, but considering that its effects only lasts a few minutes, you're capped at some mid gigatons at best, on the high end of all things (since it assumes that the minutes long effect corresponds to one blast, not to the whole operation in question which could be a thorough bombardment in the kilo/megaton range.
The description of the magma bombs and godhammers, depending on the intensity and duration of the bombardment, can go from high kilotons to low gigatons (anything more and the plains would be more than just split). It's also fantastic that the after effect of such bombardment is nothing like massive amounts of plasma and oceans of flowing rocks, but "new hills of rubble and spoil".

We also learn that the weapon technology is not particularly advanced, as it involves "energy and fission". Which certainly puts a stringent limit on the size of any warhead or even on the amount of power which could be poured through the weapons.
Finally, there's no duration given. For one, we know that a fleet was involved. Secondly, we know that a vast bombardment of lances didn't produce more than dry up river deltas and melt ice caps, of undetermined size.

The mushroom clouds were as tell as the Aett on Fenris, whatever that is supposed to be. Gigaton level firepower would require those mushrooms to splatter against the sky roof top, making said Aett particularly tall. Whatever caused those mushroom clouds, if they would not rise above 10 km, we would obviously not be dealing with more than a dozen MT of firepower, tops.

Let's notice that this bombardment didn't prevent troop deployment into Prospero's main city, Tizca.

Note: I may return to this one if I obtain more information.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:14 pm

Now the description from "Black Tide".
From the window of the chapel, through the panes of stained glass, he watched Dynikas V turning away from him, as if it were afraid to show its face. Nuclear firestorms the size of continents crossed the surface, shock-rings from multiple detonations boring down into the mantle and bedrock of the ocean world. The seas were already boiling into void as the atmosphere dissipated, the orbiting gunskulls consumed by the same fires. Within a day, perhaps less, the fifth planet would be little more than a scorched ember, and everything on it just a memory. The taint of Chaos and of the alien had been scoured clean.
Black Tide Pg.158
After reading this, I was under the impression that we were facing an undeclared Exterminatus. Everything about its effects really pointed to such an operation.
I think it's rather interesting to know what kind of weapons were used.
We're told that all would be over within a day.

About one third of the book, we get more information:
Black Tide wrote: Puluo studied the image. “Those look like embedded lance batteries, there and there,” he noted.
“Heavy gauge. Capable of reaching low orbit, I’d warrant.”
“Correct. I have determined that those weapons were among the items my former master traded in this quadrant. They are the secondary line of defence,” continued Beslian. “The primary is closer to hand. Look here, Astartes.” The tech-priest beckoned one of his lexmechanics, and the hooded figure released another mobile screen to them. Still images captured from near-orbital space flicked past like pages from a book.
Rafen recognised them first. “Gunskulls.”
There were orbs floating in the dark, kilometres up over the surface of Dynikas V, each of them clustered with engine nozzles and arrow-tipped spines. Even in the indistinct imagery taken in passing by the Archeohort’s watch-scopes, the screaming mouths worked into their surfaces were clearly visible, as were the complex strings of text in forbidden tongues carved into the metal. Some of them dragged lines of chain with them, others were dressed with fans of solar panelling. No two were alike, but every one of them had a face. Ajir had once heard that the sculpted iron was modelled upon the aspects of certain champions of the Chaos Gods, as some form of veneration. He could see where superheavy laser cannons and the tips of melta torpedoes protruded from gaping, crack-toothed maws and blank eye sockets. Each one of these killer satellites had at its heart the flesh of a crippled madman, wired in and entombed in a sheath of steel, never sleeping, forever awake and desperate to unleash death upon the enemies of the Ruinous Powers. There were hundreds of them, all with their backs to the planet and cannons aimed outward, hundreds of frozen, howling faces and screaming skulls.
“I’m no shipmaster,” said Noxx, “but I’d say those things bring poor odds.”
Mohl nodded. “The satellites are intermediate range weapons, but more than capable of
matching the guns of two strike cruisers. Anything less than a passing engagement would go in the favour of the defenders.”
“What about this hulk?” demanded Kayne.
Beslian took the insult with a sharp chug of air. “The Archeohort is not a warship! It is not built for sustained military actions.” He looked away peevishly.
Rafen ignored the outburst. “Fabius has dug himself in deep, that cannot be denied. But we’ve not come this far to be dissuaded at the very gates of our foe’s redoubt.”
“A frontal attack will be a wasteful endeavour,” Beslian said airily. “At best, you might be able to close to heavy weapons range and release an orbital bombardment upon Bile’s facility. And even then, as the gunskulls swarmed your ships, you would not live to tell of it. Not to mention that it is highly likely that the traitor has hardened his base to well beyond—”
“Your insights are appreciated,” snapped the sergeant, iron in his tone, “but matters of tactics are not yours to decide.”
Beslian pressed on, clearly concerned for the fate of the Archeohort now it was his. “I would respectfully suggest you call in reinforcements from your Chapter starfleet, brother-sergeant. A massed force of ships could obliterate Dynikas V with a sustained cyclonic torpedo barrage and suffer only a few losses in return.”
A few pages down...
Beslian came up to meet them on his mobile platform, the mechanism clanking up the levels of the command pit. Rafen turned from the relay helot conveying his orders to the internal and external vox-channels, giving the Mechanicus priest the briefest of looks.
“Brother Rafen!” snapped the logis. “What is going on?” He pointed a spindly servo-arm at
Mohl. “The Archeohort’s control code protocols have been changed. This battle-brother did so, without consulting me! What is the meaning of this?”
Rafen ignored him, concentrating on his task at hand. The helot had plugged itself into the construct’s machine-call web, and now the Blood Angel’s words to it were being broadcast simultaneously to the Astartes upon the bridges of the Gabriel and the Tycho. “Shipmasters,” he was saying. “You know your orders. You have five solar days. If we fail in our mission, or if contact is not made using the correct cipher protocols, execute a maximum strike bombardment of the fortress.
By the command of our Chapter Masters, you are to do whatever is required to turn that island into slag…
To the forfeiture of your vessels and crews, and beyond. Ave Imperator!” The commanders of the two warships echoed his words and cut the channel.
Funny that a maximum bombardment would (only) lead to the destruction of a fortress and the slagging of an island. Somehow, I expected more.

One third later, we read this:
After the Astartes had driven off the kraken, the Neimos had ventured into a network of canyons along the seabed, masking the submersible’s course at the cost of speed and time; a tactic made necessary by the movement of surface vessels in the area. “There’s a chance Rafen could have been captured. A slim one. But still a possibility we should not ignore.”
Kayne’s expression tightened. “Brother, do you suggest that the sergeant would be broken so quickly by Bile and his men? You think he would spill his guts to them?” The Space Marine’s lip curled. “He would die first!”
“This is Fabius Bile we speak of,” ventured Gast. “The master of a million horrors and a high champion of Chaos. We cannot know what dire methods he has at his fingertips.”
“Our target may know we are coming,” said Ceris.
Noxx folded his arms. “Bile defiled a holy relic of all Sons of Sanguinius and fled Baal after killing our kinsmen. Of course he knows we are coming! Such a crime could never go unanswered.
But what if he does? What if he drained Rafen dry of all he knows? It does not matter. Our mission does not change. We must find Bile and kill him, to the cost of all our lives if the need is such.
Sergeant Rafen gave that order. I still hold to it.”
“I do not disagree,” said the psyker, “I only question the means. If this planet is bombarded with cyclonic torpedoes, nothing will survive.”
“Including us,” said Ajir. “So we perish either way. But if we succeed in a ground strike, then the crews of those two ships will not need to follow us to hell.”
Eigen nodded. “If the Gabriel and the Tycho closed to deliver their lethal payloads, both vessels would be ripped apart by the orbital gunskull flotillas and the multiple remote guns dotted across the other island chains. And if we do not, they will bombard the planet anyway.”
Ceris looked in his direction. “By then it may be too late. Every moment we delay, we give Bile the chance to prepare an escape. A hidden ship, perhaps, or a warp-gate like the one he used to flee the Vitalis Citadel. We all know the enemy will flee if the chance is given to him. He does not have the stomach for a toe-to-toe fight.”
Noxx walked to the centre of the bay. “The coward thief who stole the sacred blood must die, he will die. But this cannot be a sanction taken from three hundred kilometres up, with the push of a button from the far end of a torpedo launcher!” He raised his gauntlet and slowly clenched the fingers. “We send in the ships and that will be warning enough for the whoreson. No, the enemy must be seen to be killed by one of us. The vial recovered or denied to the foe. We must do this. Our honour demands no less.” He looked at all of them in turn, his cold eyes boring deep. “If we do not do this, then everything we have gone through, the defeats and the setbacks, the oaths we swore, the brothers we have lost, the warriors crippled and killed along the way… all of it means nothing.”
So the ships Gabriel and Tycho would destroy the planet by raining cyclonic torpedoes anyway.
How the hell can someone go quote-mining and yet fail to point this out?

Simple answer: plain dishonesty.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:31 pm

Necrons use one or more Gauss Annihilators from the surface to destroy an Imperial warship:
Fall of Damnos (ebook), pages 25 to 27 wrote: He was about to start shouting and bawling again, ready to apply his boot to the fegger who’d screwed him, when a dense, ultra-concentrated beam speared from the surface. ‘What the shi–’ We are invulnerable. The thought was a comfortable one and Captain Unser was enjoying this feeling of pre-eminence when the weapons failure rune on his command-slate spoiled it. ‘Mister Ikaran, report!’ The flag-lieutenant had his hand to his ear again, getting information from the comms-officer. ‘A jam, lord. We’ll have to repack and acquire new firing–’ The massive energy spike raging across all of the pict-screens on the bridge arrested Ikaran’s recommendations. ‘Lord, our shields will be–’ ‘Impossible,’ breathed Unser, sitting up so he might defy his imminent death more staunchly. ‘They don’t have… Up here… we’re invinc–’ A bright flare of emerald light filled the bridge, blinding the crew and scorching their flesh despite the plascrete shielding on the viewports. The Nobilis’s shields capitulated in seconds, one after the other, and the once mighty vessel’s armour was sheared away like parchment by the necron beam. It impaled the bridge and lanced the heart of the ship. Plasma drives erupted in conflagration, sending roiling firestorms across all decks. Munitions and artillery cooked off in the blast, killing thousands. The main breach caused by the beam’s hungry trajectory resulted in several more sub-breaches – crewmen, equipment, entire bulkheads and sub-decks were vented into the void, flash-frozen. In the gun-decks, Overseer Caenen didn’t even have enough time to curse before the torpedo wall was ripped away and the entire gunnery crew, all two thousand, three hundred and fifty souls, burned to death before being expelled into the cold night of space.
...
It was comforting. The news he’d just received about the Nobilis was not. ‘Throne, the entire ship? In one attack?’ Field-Marshal Lanspur nodded sombrely. ‘Captain Unser bought us some ground, possibly even some time with the barrages the Nobilis was able to make, but the ship is dead, my lord – all twelve thousand, three hundred and eighty-one souls.’ ‘Merciful Emperor…’ Arxis was staring into space, finding it hard to comprehend what the necrons had done.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Lucky » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:30 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Necrons use one or more Gauss Annihilators from the surface to destroy an Imperial warship:
Fall of Damnos (ebook), pages 25 to 27 wrote: He was about to start shouting and bawling again, ready to apply his boot to the fegger who’d screwed him, when a dense, ultra-concentrated beam speared from the surface. ‘What the shi–’ We are invulnerable. The thought was a comfortable one and Captain Unser was enjoying this feeling of pre-eminence when the weapons failure rune on his command-slate spoiled it. ‘Mister Ikaran, report!’ The flag-lieutenant had his hand to his ear again, getting information from the comms-officer. ‘A jam, lord. We’ll have to repack and acquire new firing–’ The massive energy spike raging across all of the pict-screens on the bridge arrested Ikaran’s recommendations. ‘Lord, our shields will be–’ ‘Impossible,’ breathed Unser, sitting up so he might defy his imminent death more staunchly. ‘They don’t have… Up here… we’re invinc–’ A bright flare of emerald light filled the bridge, blinding the crew and scorching their flesh despite the plascrete shielding on the viewports. The Nobilis’s shields capitulated in seconds, one after the other, and the once mighty vessel’s armour was sheared away like parchment by the necron beam. It impaled the bridge and lanced the heart of the ship. Plasma drives erupted in conflagration, sending roiling firestorms across all decks. Munitions and artillery cooked off in the blast, killing thousands. The main breach caused by the beam’s hungry trajectory resulted in several more sub-breaches – crewmen, equipment, entire bulkheads and sub-decks were vented into the void, flash-frozen. In the gun-decks, Overseer Caenen didn’t even have enough time to curse before the torpedo wall was ripped away and the entire gunnery crew, all two thousand, three hundred and fifty souls, burned to death before being expelled into the cold night of space.
...
It was comforting. The news he’d just received about the Nobilis was not. ‘Throne, the entire ship? In one attack?’ Field-Marshal Lanspur nodded sombrely. ‘Captain Unser bought us some ground, possibly even some time with the barrages the Nobilis was able to make, but the ship is dead, my lord – all twelve thousand, three hundred and eighty-one souls.’ ‘Merciful Emperor…’ Arxis was staring into space, finding it hard to comprehend what the necrons had done.
I thought Necron Gauss weapons were like weaponized Star Trek transporter? This sounds like a particle beam.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:21 pm

It definitely is a particle beam tech there.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Lucky » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:21 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It definitely is a particle beam tech there.
40K fans have always seemed to argue that no armor worked against Necron Gauss weapons because they took matter apart on possibly the sub-atomic level with magical magnetic fields that then somehow transport the material away as far as I can tell.

If GW is now portraying the Necron weapons as simple particle beams then either the Necrons have lost the capability to build the old version, or the old weapons have been reconed away.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:06 pm

I wouldn't say it's been retconned. Remember, gauss annihilators are ground to orbit weapons. And they definitely are beam-like energy weapons.
The duality about Necron infantry/armour weapons existed as far back as shown in the Necron Codex of 2002, which is quite old now, especially with the 5th edition's Codex: Necrons -- and that one is really like a severe facelift if you were used to the waves of nameless metallic hordes akin to Terminator ; now it's more like Tomb Kings in space, with some silly revenge and feuds, that's the deal now, next time there will be love stories (quick view of the fundamental fluff changes here).
3rd ed did picture massive gauss weapons puncturing tanks like tissue paper in a beam fashion, with no indication that the weapon was actually sucking atoms back into the heavy gauss weapon.
Much more in line with the description of energy weapons for the new Necron units, like the "tesla destructors": http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... od1380041a
Nothing to do with the gauss-flayer guns.
Again, as far as the gauss annihilator goes, it is a beam weapon that fires particles from ground to orbit.

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