WH40K - 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread (SDN)

[Mr. Oragahn]

This thread is meant to take on the numerous quotations provided by member "Connor McLeod" from Stardestroyer.net and look at them from a different perspective.
Although it is polite to thank Connor for the hard work he put into producing such exhaustive databases, with data picked from the Warhammer 40000 guides and books, I wish he had put as much effort into the correct interpretation of the sources as he did in his research of material and quotations.
WH40K is supposed to be wild and crazy, but it's also largely dictated by an appeal to epic scale, and the descriptions and its almost unique terminologies often mislead the reader, especially the one who would take everything literally, at face value, without the consideration of hyperbole or even the concern for knowing if what's read is simply possible, according to what we know of physics.
Let's make it clear: Connor does show a habit for maximalism in his interpretations, sometimes clearly over the top, and I think we can show that his interpretations are not necessarily the only ones.
Although WH40K is one of those few universes where the density of fearsome machines, abundant firepower and crazy psychos armed with bigs guns is extremely high, sanity is still required for a proper analysis, and no misinterpretation in favour of greater numbers shall be allowed, no matter if it's Warhammer 40000.

So I'll start with the following thread. Note that you're encouraged to comment on my or anyone else's observations, eventually by digging deeper into the thread in question.


40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Rogue Trader: Various pages 277-283
[...]

Plasma pistol. This is a very powerful weapon indeed - it fires a ball of super-heated plasma (ionised matter at incredible temperature - the stuff of which stars are composed.) Its range is not very great, and it is difficult to use except at close range, but most targets are instantly vapourised!

The only calcable "non-novel" example I have ever come across for plasma weapons (or at least an easily calcable one.) It is not sure what "most tagets" comprises, but we can take it to mean human sized at least, which indicates that a humanoid target hit by a plasma pistol would be vaporised. This can be taken to mean (an dreinforce) the "hundreds of megajoules per shot" estimates from other examples, though of course the exact output of a plasma weapon will depend on its setting. Note that vaporizing an ork (As would happen here, as its Space Marine vs Orks) would require at least svevral times the energy needed to vaporize a human (very high triple digit MJ to low single, perhaps double digit GJ, depending upon ork size)

Literal interpretation of the word "vapourised". He assumes, perhaps wrongly, that a target would be totally vapourised, and that this would also apply to an Ork, although they're supposedly tougher, which drives his numbers up.
It will be easy, right there, to understand that an instant vapourization of a creature, especially an Ork or any infantry in light or heavy gear, will imply hundreds of megajoules of energy. But it will also imply an enormous side effect that is always ignored, and most of all, wholely lacking in the sources themselves.
Connor takes vapourize as turn the stuff the creature is made of into gas. A much simpler and achievable vapourization would be through sudden spraying of guts and blood (something largely supported by the comics I read). Basically turning most tissues and fluids into their aerosol counterpart. For that, you need much less energy, as long as you provide enough sudden energy to allow for sudden tissue and fluid expansion.

Page 98

A plasma bomb is a large missile typically used by or against spacecraft. They are also used for planetary sieges. The missile energises at launch, converting into a mass of seething plasma - each missile becomes a ball of boiling energy sufficient to melt a city-block. As it converts to plasma, the missile divides into 6 fragments, this enables the plasma to spread out and saturate its target. A target under plasma attack becomes a blazing inferno which only the very fortunate survive.

Range is practically unlimited. A plasma bomb can be fitted with drives enabling it to be launched from the edges of a solar system agianst a target on a distant planet. A powered missile of this kind is sometimes known as a plasma torpedo, or plasma lance.

Description of the operation of a "plasma bomb" (or plasma missile) Like barrage bombs, it seems to be a MIRV type weapon, and also like barrage bombs it has an "edge of the solar system" range as well (against targets). The interesting thing here is that it implies that these weapons can also be employed as anti-ship weapons, suggesting possibly that missile duels (At least) can be conducted over very long ranges.

Note that "melting a city block" can take alot less than gigaton/TT energies implied by the earlier quote I addressed, as most city blocks in modern times rarely get into kilometers square (what you'd need to achieve gigaton range outputs), it is possible in 40K given the types of planets avaialble (Hive and Forge worlds, in particular.) Not to mention that 40K material supersciene is basically as magical as anything in SW, so its not really easy to calc the yield based on that except in a conservative manner.

I think we can obtain some good idea of how powerful this large weapon is. A city-block is not big at all, so being conservative is very easy. All you want is being sure that a rather common material used for cities will be largely melted by the weapon.

From the quote about some Coruscant-like hive-worlds, we can know that the cities would largely be composed of rockcrete, plasteel and other metals.
The metal used here would obviously not be worth the stock used for warships.

So we have a large missile -by WH40K standards- which happens to melt a city block after its six plasma "warheads" hit. Note, there, that the pattern is more efficient at dispatching firepower than attacking with a single bomb, since we're closer to a lower yield carpet bombing than a single detonation.

The weapon itself is rather strange, in that it's a constant matter-energy plasma based device that continuously runs its reaction during its course, and later on seems to imply that it can soak up damage from energy used against it.

As for the long range, unless the missile carries a massive amount of fuel, it wouldn't achieve more than a couple of tens of megatons at best, through sheer KE.

I also find the idea that this weapon is also used against spacecrafts rather interesting.

Page 41

Finally, Methalor, the closest system to Gathalamor fell, its principal hive destroyed by a raging inferno started by the inhnabitants overloading its geo-thermal power grid.

I'm wondienrg how they might have accomplished it. It might provide an idea as to calcing if it did.,

In some other threads, Connor did reference a case involving St Josemane's Hope. The story goes as its inhabitants got defeated and fleed or something, but at the price of a scorched earth act.
I don't know if Connor was simply confusing both events or not.
With not much background info on Josemane's Hope's story, it's hard to tell.

Page 42

It was a speech from him that had so incensed the population of Resto Primis they overloaded the geo-thermal power network, cracking apart the planet's continents with a wave of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes.

Again, I'm wondering how they did that. I'm not even sure that thats what would happen if you "overloaded" a network. Then again I suppose it depends entirely on how it works. It would suggest fairly high power outputs though (high TT/low Petaton at least) What they use that power for.. no clue. Defense and maybe construction.

I'm picking the two quotations below from later on in the same thread.

Regarding the "geothermal energy network", Necromunda's hives are powered by hundred-metre-wide pipes running stright down the centre of the hive into the mantle of the planet.

Runnign some rough calcs It might be what they did was overload whatever capacitors or energy-storage medium they use (suck up alot of energy from the mantle and then blow them violently.)

Running a rough calc (most of the mantle is iron, nd it makes up well over half the planet's mass, and an average temp of the aforementioned mantle) there *could* be enough energy to do it. Though I wouldnt want to rely solely on geothermal power for offensive/defensive purposes (total energy in the e30 joule range for an Earthlike planet...)

If the capacitors or whatever the storag emedium is were also buried, then it probably could cause massive cratering/fracturing (earthquakes) as if it were a buried explosive.

Now, e30 J is a high amount of energy to tap into, and that alone is enough to do considerable damage to effectively destroy a planet, if one can reroute that energy properly. Of course overloading being a joker here, since the energy is already present, so it's hard to know what the regular output, or even peak output of the geothermal network is supposed to be.
This amount of energy would obviously not be used all at once, but progressively.

I don't exactly know how they could overload the plant either. Perhaps by taxing too much energy at once, building up a pressure in some magma chamber, and starting loosing integrity. At this point, the planet's internal would continuously push magma into the chamber, until it would be breached and incinerate everything.

Nevertheless, the most stupefying part of this is how Connor wouldn't solely rely on the geothermal output for planetary shields and weapons, without giving a single reason why. All he provides is the total inner energy of a planet like ours, e30 J.

One obvious reason why this wouldn't be wise is that tapping huge energies to power shields and weapons in the multi-teraton range, if not petaton range, would surely be most devastating to the planet itself. It's removing considerable amounts of energy from a given spot, thus breaking the balance. This would create massive convection, and break continents.
After all, a teraton grade earthquake levels entire cities at the surface and cause considerable tsunamis.
Who would be unwise enough to suddenly rip near even low teratons of energy per second from a world's own geoenergy, in order to defend it and shoot back?
There would be nothing left to defend.

Obviously, such a planet would be more than enough for both defense and retaliation if energy was stored over a long time.
If anything, this is perhaps an attempt at obtaining large numbers, but which proves totally pointless in the end.

Skipping ahead to 2nd edition again.. the sisters of Battle Codex. We hear so very little about them officially that its worth commenting on this simply to get some ideas and details out there (and there are other relevant details I'd like to share, anyhow)

...

Page 10

Using the orbital batteries of Jhanna to melt the planet's ice caps, drowning nearly four billion people in the resultant floods.

Assumign the planet is roughly earthlike going by wikipedia and here we can estimate by area/volume that there is probably (if my math is right) around 8e19 kg of ice on EArth. I'm presuming that he's not using "icec caps" literally, but to refer to all the polar ice on the planet.

from SD.net (the old asteroid calcs) the specific heat of ice is 2.1 kj/(kg*K), melting point is 273K, and latent heat of fushion is 335 kj/kg. Going by average temperatures (averaging also between summe rand winter) in Antarctica (a value of 235K) we can figure it takes about 420 kilojoules per kilogram to melt the ice. The total energgy input from the orbital batteries would be 3e25 joules. Unfortunately we dont know how many defense guns or how long it took (other than presumably a short time and didnt include torpedoes) but it gives us a broad benchmark for the kinds of firepower they can unleash (and that ship to ship engagements involve), particularily since inefficiencies will increase the number.

Directly shooting at the cities of the planet would be far, far more efficient. You certainly don't need such a firepower to kill that many people, especially when you have access to the orbital guns. This would largely suggest style over substance type of genocide, where efficiency, and thus time, is certainly not a prime factor.
Still, the total amount of energy would pretty much remain a fact. Even raising our seas and oceans by one meter over a hundred years, with an increase of 3 degrees, requires similar amounts of energy.

Now, style over substance is good and all, but if our spurious leader chose to drown people, I think it's good to point out that merely picking a fraction of those 3 e25 J (717 metric teratons of TNT) and shooting here and there in the ocean, not far from coastal cities, would have done the job, with far more dramatic effects.
Decades later, two ultramarines companies are sent to retake control of two oceanic cities against renegades and chaos marines, so it's possible the planet had large areas of water.
A massive freak wave that would flood megacities could easily be created by a single multi-teraton shot in the water (a low teraton level earth quake creates tsunamis, and that's from a deep hypocenter that release its energy over a long period, not fractions of a second at the surface).

Also, just checking the number for ice mass: According to these values, the most recent estimation of Antartica's ice volume is 30 e6 km3, the biggest. The total for all ice caps is 33 e6 km³, or 33 e15 m³.
With a density of 917 kg/m³, that's 3.0261 e19 kg.
Connor got 8 e19 kg for all ice caps on Earth (Greenland and some other glaciers I suppose), that's close enough. That said, a planet like Mars has around ten times less polar ice.

If you use too much energy at once, ice is sublimated, not just melted. The only way to melt ice as much as possible, without breaking and sublimating enormous volumes of ice, is to use firepower power settings and energy levels that minimize excessive cratering and vapourisation, and really take your time to wait for the molten ice to escape, otherwise you'd probably boil and vapourize the ice you just melted, without necessarily melting more ice. That's many shots, and preferably on the edges of the ice sheets. We're talking about a prolonged bombardment.
That said, it would only diminish the power figure, not the total energy figure.

Connor says inefficiencies would increase the numbers. But what kind of inefficiencies?

According to this page, "the entire Antarctic ice sheet holds enough water to raise global sea levels by 62 metres (203 feet)." Clearly, you only need to attempt melting a fraction of the ice to get disastrous effects. You could vapourize a good amount of ice and melt the rest with fringe heat, it would work more than enough. Although had the energy been delivered that fast, it's pretty clear that drowning would have been the least of the inhabitants' worries.
3 e25 J is 7170 teratons, and this number was obtained by considering Earth's global ice amount.
Using Antartica's ice only, we get a maximum of 1.134 e25 J, and 3.66 e24 J if you rise the level by two meters (Antartica ice / 31).

According to this source, tsunamis can travel at 720 km/h over deep oceans, and will only slow down at rise to six stories heights when moving close to a coastline, which imho represents a fairly small quantity of distance.
Earth has a circumference of 4 e4 km. That makes the curved distance from a pole to the equator about 10,000 km.
It would therefore take 13.89 hours for a wave to cross that distance.
A weak one would certainly lose much of its strength over such a long distance, but scientists have certainly not considered the event of weapons unleashing teratons of energy into a region of water and ice all at once, and most cities aren't that far from the poles. Plus as I said, a good melting would be done by shooting at the caps' edges.
Chances are that many people would already be dead in the wake of the first shots. It would indeed be quicker to die, within hours, because of the impossibly powerful tsunamis, than die because the sea levels would rise slowly, notably due to a lower power long bombardment.

All in all, this was probably crammed into a book more than a decade ago without being much thought, and that was clearly not the author's point anyway. They were not there to crunch numbers and see if it physically and mathematically fits. Besides, back then, obtaining information was quite hard. Today, anyone can pick Internet and have access to a good amount of data that helps strengthen your background.

The conclusion being that this event remains a demonstration of high firepower, but not exempt of critical remarks.
That said, many fictional SF universes do have events that once understood and interpreted, tend to prove being high showings, even often being outliers.

Page 47

The Immoaltor opened fire and gouts of flame poured over the wall, lapping round the shattered windows to engulf the whole squad.

The Immoaltor rolled onwards, crushing the charred bodies of the Eldar beneath its steel tracks.

Single blast of an immolator tank leaves "charred bodies" of eldar - a whole suqad. At a gues sprobably triple digit MJ at least (say 40-50 MJ per body, and 10 bodies.. 400-500 mj)

As per wikipedia, a squad traditionally numbers between 8 and 14 men. I didn't see evidence to consider this rule of thumb wouldn't apply to WH40K.
The Immolator obviously is some kind of napalm tank. This one is equipped with heavy-flamers, using promethium as the reactant.
However, why assume that the bodies were entirely charred? A person would be considered burnt if the external tissues and hairs were roasted beyond. If from the outside, the body looks torched, it's unwise to claim that all guts, bones and so on are torched as well, or even need to be.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Now onto the second page.

Page 7

Crackling forks of blue lightning crawl over the target's surfac and shatter it, and the whirring teeth chew through armour and flesh iwth equal ease.

With three or four well placed cuts, a warrior can cut a hole in a bulkhead large enough for even the bulk of a Terminator to step through.

Chainfists can cut/shatter a 3-4 meter tall (diameter likely) hole in a bulkhead (say half a meter ot a meter thick) in 3-4 blows/cuts. In terms of volume we might conjectuer that this is similar to cratering a 3-4 meter diameter asteroid (not unreasonable, since a bulkhead is going to be nearly as thick ot half the aforementioned diameter.)

Assuming silicon like cratering that would be 4-5 kilos of TNT. Whereas iron like would be ~100 kg of TNT. The actual value probably would fall somewhere between there (not accounting for differences in sophistication). We can reasonably conclude a chainfist is megajoule range (which is reasonable given known capabilities of other power weapons - cf gauntlets of Ultramar.) The "steel" estimate is likely to be generous anyhow since its not just punching, its cutting.

OK. A bulkhead is going to be between 1.5 to 4 meters thick. Going with this in mind, apparently CML believes it's a sound methodology to obtain the power of that kind of gauntlet weapon, by using the cratering of a 3-4 meters diameter asteroid! Never mind that the fluff talks about three to four well placed cuts, you know, like a triangle, or a square, sort of... yet favours the use of a single charge explosion phenomenom, which is much less efficient, by large.
He almost treats the chainfist as a powerfist, while they're different in their ability to penetrate armour, for which the former is much better at.

Of course, how the hell a chainfist of that length is supposed to cut through anything thicker than one meter (at best) ine one stroke is beyond me, since the blade itself doesn't stick out that much from the power armour to boot!
Chainswords exist for a reason, the most notable one is that they're longer. Hence "sword".

And if it wasn't enough, why go with an explosive since the blade of a chainfist is a narrow piece of equipment that slices through matter, not explodes it?
Add the possibility that the chainfist is covered by an energy field (but that may be an addition from later editions) or uses those some same monomolecular teeth, it would only make the cutting easier for less application of energy.

The "crackling forks of blue lightning" that "crawl over the target's surface and shatter it" is the power first (notice the blue energy arcs) part of the chain fist, since the chain fist is a modification.
If they use an extra cutting short-blade, it's for a good reason.
Also notice that the complete sentence is: "Crackling forks of blue lightning crawl over the target's surface and shatter it, and the whirring teeth chew through armour and flesh with equal ease."
As you see, it shatters an unknown armour (given context would be useful it it was present) and the fist mounted mini-chainsaw finishes the job by penetrating armour and cutting flesh.
Yes, notice that the blade still has to go through armour.

The reference about the bulkhead only comes later, and it's absurd to think, from this line, that the concussion from the modified power fist is what destroys most of the bulkhead.

Not to say that power fists' shattering ability is actually described as disrupting matter. However this is achieved, good luck ever sticking a number to this!
Still, you're going to like what follows:

Page 8

The Crozius [Arcanum] is surrounded by a crackling blue energy field when it is swung, rending the target apart with a flare like lightning as it strikes.

Crozius will, presumably, blow a target apart (assuming this means grenade like) from a single hit. If the aforementioned conjecture is accurate - High KJ to low MJ range output (hundreds of kilojoules/low megajoule.) This is old as far as power weapons go, since some burn but dont really explode We may consider it to be a specific kind of power weapon, or a particular setting.

"explosive" is not unreasonable, since chainfists are described as "shattering" with the power discharge.

Indeed, "explosive" is not unreasonable... it's beyond that. Try "totally ludicrous".
Why? Because first, as hinted above, it's a weapon that also disrupts matter.
Secondly, the damn thing looks like that, described "as a staff of medium length, topped with either an Imperial eagle or a winged skull."
Funny thing that those wings actually happen to turn the weapon into the equivalent of that. An axe.

The logic that would want such a weapon, capable of slicing a target in two, with some added techno-magic, to be related to an explosive is quite remarkable, and frankly unwise, to say the least.

[Harlequin's Kiss] - By punching forward, the Harlequin activates the weapon and releases a tightly curled 100 metre long monofilament wire (A wire only one molecule thick). If the tip of the weapon touches the enemy the wire instantly uncoils inside the victim's body. Within the space of a heartbeat the enemy's insides are reduced to the consistency of soup, and the wire whips back into the Harelquin's Kiss.

Harlequin's Kiss has a 100 meter effective range, ,and is considered a "close combat" weapon (it doesnt have a range). This would imply that pistols and other weapons have a Maximum range longer than the Kiss - say a couple hundred yards for pistols. This would be possible given that alot of "pistol" type weapons technically qualify as SMGs (and hell, some really powerful handguns can reach to 100 or so yards) This is also consistent with bolt pistol ranges outlined in novels like "Angels of Darkness" and "Space Wolf" as well as laspistol ranges in "Draco" and "Soul Drinkers".

Note that uncoiling to ~100 yards in a fraction of a second (.8 second to .5 second, depending onthe actual bpm heartbeat rate you use). Acceleration is tens of gees, possibly implying a supersonic velocity (no surprise there, given what it does.)

The peculiar nature of this weapon is that it seems to be basically a highly-controlled/directable monomocular whip. Given that its likely to be made of psychoplastics, and that they can be psychically controlled, this is no s urprise.

Calling "effective" a range of 100 m for what is a whip that is 100 m long is excessive in many aspects, for the mere fact that it remains a cable, fired only at a given speed, and poses problems on the battlefield, since even after being fired, it can dramatically wound someone unfortunate enough to cross the path of the wire. Beams, missiles, grenades and bullets don't have that problem. Once it's gone, it's gone for good.
Besides, the system works as such as when the coiled filament hits matter, the momentum would make it uncoil. No matter how mono-molecule thin it is, any matter is going to act as an obstacle and redirect momentum, and of course such a filament is not going to have much mass on its own, so any impact will pretty much uncoil the integrality of whatever length left.
Psychis aren't even needed in my opinion, since the mere shock against a target will send enough information (read vibrations) through the filament for the weapon system to clock the filament's return into the tubular cache.

Page 9

[Lightning Claws]
When the curved blades rake across armour or flesh they discharge crackling energy like small lightning strikes over the target, tearing it apart and exposing flesh and bone to further assault.

Lightning claws are described similar to the effects of the Crozius, but not implied to be neccesarily "explosive"

Indeed, since they're claws after all. Why not apply the logic to the segment above though? Risk of obtaining a figure deemed too low for someone's tastes perhaps?

[MAndiblaster] The Mandiblaster is an extremely short-range weapon, useful only at a distancee of a foot or so.

The weapon is activated by a psychic pick--up in the helmet, and fires a stream of tiny metallic needles straight forward into the target. These needles cannot do much damage themselves, although in the case of unarmoured targets they can tear and lacerate flesh, but they act as a conductive medium through which the Striking Scorpion delivers its intense laser energy sting.

This laser energy vaporises the tiny slivers of metal into plasma which rips straight into the target.

The damage mechanism presumably is thermal/shock effect from the explosive vaporization of the needles (small bullets/grenades) in addition to the kinetic effects of the needles.

No real way to quantify this, though I shoudl note that I suspect some lasweapons (or hybrids, like needlers) are capable of behaving in a similar fashion. Its one reason why I treat this as a separate class of weapons.

The system is a two stage weapon: fires needles, and then the Striking Scorpion delivers a laser blow, somehow, which also happen to ignite the shards.
About the volume of metal in question?
Well, we can look for the size of the weapon: http://www.guysthatgame.co.uk/gtgshop/p ... _21803.jpg
http://www.guysthatgame.co.uk/gtgshop/p ... _51228.jpg

Page 10

When the weapon [Power Axe] strikes, this energy is discharged over the victim, rending the target apart with lightning-like power.

Another repeat of the Crozius description.

I'm typing this as I quote Connor, and I'm dumbfounded, as this is getting worse. Now the book itself describes the weapon as an axe, a power axe more precisely, yet Connor won't correct the claim of an effect akin to a chemical explosive?

Page 10

The Power fist or power glove is a heavy armoured gauntlet surrounded by an energy field which disrupts the surface of solid matter, allowing the fist to punch through walls and armour, and grip and tear away solid objects.

Power fist. Note that its depiction differs notably from other power weapons.

Please notice that it precisely differs in zero way, other than the fist applies force over an area, and thus is more about concussion, while other blade weapons apply the force over a much much thinner area. Other than that, the system is relatively identical.

Page 11

As a blow is struck [with a power sword] the whole length of the sword shivers with a crackling discharge of energy which then envelopes the target and tears it apart.

Getting repetitive, but also getting a bit goofier to explain (it enguls AND explodes the target??)

The target is ensnared by energy arcs, while it's being cut by the sword. With ease.
Why try to think the sword blows the target up, again?

Page 26

It [lasgun] fires an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shell.A lasgun may not be the most effective weapon in the galaxy, but it is easy to manufacture and maintain, and very reliable even under the thoughest battlefield conditions. The lasgun is powered by rechargable batteries, but carries a residual supply and can be recharged using its own solar converters.

This seems to be whta everyone thinks about when we hear about the lasgun being "equal to an assault rifle". Although technically thats not quite true. What this quote is saying is that it has effects similar to a "bullet or small shell" but odesnt really be more specific than that. We could assume a stub or auto weapon but you could (technically) argue it could mean anything up to or including autocannon or heavy stubber weapons or even a small bolt shell. Generally I assume it means a fairly powerful round (high calibre autogun, IE 7.62mm) or a shotgun shell/slug - both of which impliy putting a rather big hole in your target. Also effect isn't neccearily meaning the same energy - a laser beam isnt going to be quite as effective even asusming a very efficient design and/or setting. The "explosive" effect suggests explosive vaporization (which fits with other descriptions such as third edition) causing shock and thermal (presumably at least - not stated here but implied elsewhere) effects.

The other really interesting bit about this is the recharging bit and the "residual energy". The first part implies that the solar converter is built into the lasgun (or at least some lasguns) which makes more sense since the damn thing would be more likely to have large enough surface areas for that to be actually useful. The second implies that one can fire at least a few shots without a power pack off the "emergency power" although the exact or some such.

The lasgun is supposed to be a good weapon, but one has to wonder how it can be relevant on the battlefield once depleted, or for future attacks (like tommorow's assault)... a solar converter is not going to charge that weapon much.
Earth's illuminated upper atmosphere is constantly bathed in energy from the star. It is more or less hit by an intensity of 1.4 kw/m².
The lasgun's solar convertion system couldn't come with an area greater than 10 cm x 50 cm. That's 5% of 1/20th of one square meter.
70 watts, if that lasgun was left orbiting the planet and receiving light.
You'd need 14285.7 seconds to recharge 1 MJ. That's almost four hours. With perfect sunlight and perfect convertion (100%, which is absolutely ludicrous, I'd be impressed if the system would even achieve a 25% convertion).
While this would seem reasonable as last resort option for a few shots, in a context were low power megajoule shots are acceptable, it's obviously going to be totally pointless when we start comparing this to high caliber WH40K bullets.
Unless high calibre bullets are not as powerful as generally assumed, aside from literal interpretation of flowery language and constant epic hyperboles.

Page 30

The plasma gun fires energy shells of bright glowing plasma. When a plasma shell hits tremendous heat and energy are released, destroying the target in an almighty explosion. A target hit by a plasma shell suffers the dual effects of searing heat and explosive shock as its substance is instantly energised into boiling plasma. Though the plasma gun is highly effective, it loses accuracy over long range, and requires a massive amount of energy to power it.

Plasma weapons blah blah.. thermal and shock effects (explosive vaporization playing a role, though its probably more accurate to say it strikes and the intense heat turns part of the body into plasma, with the rapid expansion transmitting thermal and shock effects.) and evidently blasting the target apart.

If we take "searing" literally it oculd mean 400-700 kj per kg to "burn" a person (and assume the entire target is affected), assuming a 70 kg person "seared" thats around 28-30 MJ. Maybe twice that for the upper end for this calc.

For once, an interpretation that seems more reasonnable, despite missing the opportunity to focus on the "instantly energised into boiling plasma" bit.
Hell, even the upper end may not be too excessive, since the target is destroyed in an "almighty explosion."

Page 34

It [assault cannon] has six separate barrels which are rotated by a motor, allowing the weapon to spit out a hail of shells which can easily tear a man sized taget apart and throw it several metes.

...

Although made from a special heat resistant ceramite alloy, the hundreds of shells fired every second cause the weapon to overheat.

Assault cannons have a ROF of "hundreds of shells" a second, and the impact of shells can "tear apart" a man sized target and impart enough momentum to throw it several meters. Recoil would be considerable (hundreds of kg*m/s easily) with considerably insane KE values. Ammo requirements would be insane, though.

One of those nonsensical weapons. Since the weapon is a gatling on steroids, somehow, some of the tubes are not going to be used and left to cool.
There's the typical action movie "people fly" trope. What would perhaps start to step into the realm of plausibility if we were speaking of solid targets, becomes a pure product of wonderland when we're talking about fleshbags largely made of water. The bullets will simply shred the target and impart absolutely little momentum at all. The book's claim is totally ridiculous and can't even work until you start to pretend that the projectiles are perhaps half as wide as the human himself and about remarkably flat.
It does not help when one largely applies maximalist interpretations to raw pieces of informations, and it certainly worsens things when the overblown epic aspect of WH40K is exagerated through the claim of things that do happen, when they could not happen.

Page 62

The melta bomb is a subatomic thermal charge capable of melting through heavily armoured targets such as fighting vehicles and dreadnoughts.

...

The blast of intense heat generated by a melta bomb is entirely directed against the target so it has no blast marker.

- melta bombs are stated here to be "subatomic" implying some sort of parrticle beam weapon. They are also shaped charge like effects and can melt through armoured targets (again single or double digit GJ yields implied.)

Two digits GJ yield, again? That is excessive.

Assume the target's material is 273 Kelvins hot (0 C°).
From wikipedia, here's what we know about titanium:

Code: Select all

Standard atomic weight            47.867 g/mol
Density (near r.t.)               4.506 g/cm³
Melting point                     1941 K, 1668 °C, 3034 °F
boiling point                     3560 K, 3287 °C, 5949 °F
Heat of fusion                    14.15 kJ/mol
Heat of vaporization              425 kJ/mol
Specific heat capacity (25 °C)    25.060 J/(mol.K)

Therefore:

Code: Select all

Specific heat capacity (SHC)    0.523 J/(g.k)
Heat of fusion (HF)             295.61 J/g
Heat of vaporization (HV)       8878.768 J/g

The mass of one cube meter of titanium is 4506 kg/m³.
The energy to vapourize such a quantity of matter would be:

Ea = 4506 e3 (3560*SHC + HF + HV)
Ea = 49.74 GJ (compared to the 60.97 GJ for 1m³ of iron)
It appears to be acceptable to consider the energy is delivered in a very tight cone.

What about thickness?

"...a subatomic thermal charge capable of melting through heavily armoured targets such as fighting vehicles and dreadnoughts."

So we can logically look over Internet for a dreadnought's typical armour thickness (without going for the Ironclad variant), and similar information about other vehicles.

Here:

The biggest, baddest, nastiest tank the Emperor's Finest have is the rare and prized Land Raider. This is the heaviest assault tank in the Imperium of Man, sporting composite armor (with elements of adamantium) all around, with 2" thickness, enabling it to withstand all but the heaviest anti-tank firepower. Even then, firepower has to be concentrated to take it down.

1 inch = 2.54 centimeters.
So that's 5.08 cm of armour.

Here:

Adeptus Astartes Phobos pattern
LAND RAIDER

Height -------------------------------------------------------------------- 13'6" to upper deck
Length -------------------------------------------------------------------- 34'
Width --------------------------------------------------------------------- 20'
Weight (unladen) ---------------------------------------------------------- 72 Tonnes
Weight (fully laden) ------------------------------------------------------ 81 Tonnes

Armour Thickness
Front Hull: --------------------------------------------------------------- 3.75"
Side Hull: ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3.69"
Rear Hull: ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3.61"

The maximum here is 9.525 cm.
The Land Raider is a Heavy Tank though:

In Warhammer 40K, the Land Raider is the Imperium's most devastaing tank. With the ability to carry entire Space Marine squads right into the front line, while still being heavily armoured and armed, makes it one of the most useful weapons of any Space Marine commander.It is also happens to be the bane of anyone who's fighting it. It is the most heavily armoured vehicle in the standard 40K rules set, and has seriously powerful weaponry. It can also move just as fast as many of the other tanks in the game.

We also know that a Dreadnought's armour thickness is similar to that of a light tank, so using a heavy tank is unwise.

So say we have about 5.08 cm or armour to go through, and say that the charge leaves a hole that's 20 cm wide on the external side, and 30 cm wide on the internal side.

You have 0.01 m³ of matter removed there.
With such material, for a similar density, you'd need an alloy roughly 100 times stronger than titanium.
Is that corresponding to the reality of the universe?

Checking the Lexicanum's page for the Land Raider, we find that an armour of 91-95mm, comprising 2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, is equivalent to 365mm of conventional steel armour, with an overall factor inferior to 4.
Adamantium is used for the vehicle's inside.
Notice that they still bother to use one plate of titanium mixed to plasteel in the layer arrangement, so titanium is not a pointless metal.
Steel by definition contains a high majority of iron, plus any alloying material that corresponds to the wanted final result. In case of plating, a bonder/hardener is expected.

Page 63

Plasma is an unpleasant and unstable material in a highly energised state - when a plasma grenade explodes it creates a shining ball of plasma like a miniature sun.

Plasma is described as "unstable", and creating a "miniature sun" - which might imply a fusion reaction, but may also just mean a ball of incandescent plasma some diameter (a couple metres is probably a safe conservative estimate - say 2 meters diameter. density of air is about 1.3 kg*m^3 see here
about 5-6 kg of air.

Assuming a temp of around say 2 million degrees Kelvin for plasma, and specific heat see here is around 1 kilojoule per kg*K. So basically aorund 1-2 GJ per kg of matter. so, basically a single/double digit GJ even, more or less.

The Eldar plasma grenades of this edition were supposed to be flashbangs, according to Lexicanum.

This is a priceless piece of evidence as to how handle such hyperboles, as a miniature sun is nothing more than a source of light that blinds people, but that's all, not even a frag grenade. The ability to cause damage only appeared in the 4th edition, and therefore must point to a different kind of grenade.

It pretty much contradicts everything said about organization in the 3rd and 5th Ed. Guard codexes, and Tactica Imperialis is ~18 months older than the new Guard book.

I don't buy the "newer always contradicts older automatically" idea. Otherwise why bother lookinat at or citing earlier material? (Not that it matters since they recycle so much of it anyhow... alot of the "contradictions" I find are largely a matter of interpretation anyhow.) Bulk of evidence and overall consistency matter more in the long term than age of material (he ICSs have been "supplanted" by newers oruces according to some, but does that automatically mean we ignore anything they say in favor of the new stuff? Of course not.)

ICS is heavily contradicted by BOTH older and newer sources. The Clone Wars Series, the CGI cartoon, routinely shows warships damaged by firepower billion if not trillion times weaker than what the ICS claims.
Example: An exhaustive although incomplete list of such sources. Arguments to defend this position are all over SFJN and even SBC now.

[Jedi Master Spock]

A small footnote on whips: A long bullwhip may be up to 20' long and will be supersonic.

The weapon described, however, while it may contain 100m of wire, shows no indication of having the 100m effective range he claims. The coil is quite literally pushed into the victim from point blank, and in order to turn the insides "to soup" requires not that the coil stretch out to its full 100m length (which would sever the victim in half), but rather that the coil loosens and expands to about a cubic meter of volume, making many small cuts outward at different angles, close together to each other. To call this weapon a whip, or to claim it has a 100m effective range, seems incorrect. I checked for other descriptions online, and all seem to agree that this weapon is something deployed against a single victim at the range of a punch.

[The Dude]

Oh Atheistmo are you guys using Lexicanum as a source???

I'd avoid that if I where you, it is extremely incomplete (GW has a really restrictive IP policy) , many of the articles are just C&P from Wikipedia (which got cleaned out a few months back). Your better off to look through actual books.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, Lexicanum is far from being complete. There's also the other WH40K wikia, plus others pages and countless WH40K to find more info.
As often as I could check, I didn't see any problems.
When I see something fishy, I mention it.

[The Dude]

Yes, Lexicanum is far from being complete. There's also the other WH40K wikia, plus others pages and countless WH40K to find more info.
As often as I could check, I didn't see any problems.
When I see something fishy, I mention it.

Would you mind posting those links? I wasn't aware of another one. I don't suppose you cross checked the Wargear reference for those plasma grenades with the actual book?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh boy, getting your hands on the first and second editions is rather hard, even when you know fans of WH40K. That's very old stuff.

As for the links, I went looking for other websites when I needed a specific information, so what will actually happen is that when I got some info from another place, there will be a link to this other place.
The sites are not hard to find btw, they're first page Google results, most of the time, assuming you know how to narrow your request.

[The Dude]

Oh boy, getting your hands on the first and second editions is rather hard, even when you know fans of WH40K. That's very old stuff.

So that would be a no, I understand that getting 1/2 edition stuff is difficult though. It's like trying to get hold of the early novels.

As for the links, I went looking for other websites when I needed a specific information, so what will actually happen is that when I got some info from another place, there will be a link to this other place.
The sites are not hard to find btw, they're first page Google results, most of the time, assuming you know how to narrow your request.

Yes, thats not what I asked though. I asked if you had the links, if your unable or unwilling to provide them then I consider that just plain rude.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, thats not what I asked though. I asked if you had the links, if your unable or unwilling to provide them then I consider that just plain rude.

Hey, that's not my intent.
As I said, I merely used Google. I don't feel like listing all the forums, websites and so on that relate to WH40K (or not) and which would eventually happen to provide bits from the fluff. When needed, this is done for specific cases, as you'll see.
But if you're looking for something particular, just ask.

Oh and on the topic of plasma and flash bang grenades:

Plasma-based weaponry
[...]
A nonlethal weapon designed to use a laser to induce a high energy state in gases is currently being funded by the United States military. The leading tip of the incoming beam ionized the target material, while the remainder is absorbed by this newly created plasma causing it to expand rapidly. This rapid expansion not only has an effect similar to a flash-bang grenade,...

[The Dude]

Hey, that's not my intent.
As I said, I merely used Google. I don't feel like listing all the forums, websites and so on that relate to WH40K (or not) and which would eventually happen to provide bits from the fluff. When needed, this is done for specific cases, as you'll see.
But if you're looking for something particular, just ask.

I found a couple earlier actually, one of which is basically a C&P of the old Wikipedia entries from the looks of it. Lots of citations at any rate.

This one, though without the books to look up the stuff I'm hesitant to trust any of it.

Oh and on the topic of plasma and flash bang grenades:

Plasma-based weaponry
[...]
A nonlethal weapon designed to use a laser to induce a high energy state in gases is currently being funded by the United States military. The leading tip of the incoming beam ionized the target material, while the remainder is absorbed by this newly created plasma causing it to expand rapidly. This rapid expansion not only has an effect similar to a flash-bang grenade,...

Well that is pretty cool.

[Jedi Master Spock]

There's both Lexicanum and Warhammer40k.wikia.com. A resource that can usually be found online quickly is the Warhammer 40,000 fluff bible. Usually, I will go to the trouble of actually pulling up books, but usually, if I'm just checking for basic consistency (i.e., quote in front of me, looking for what others make of it) I'll Google the term and see all the amateur fansites that pop up. Especially if I'm not sure what books I need to be looking at.

As with the Harlequin weapon; the description given looked pretty clearly to be not what Connor was claiming. Checking online gets, for example, this page: http://homepages.tig.com.au/~tezzajw/harleqru.htm

While clearly not official, seeing that, forum posts, and the Wikia and Lexicanum entries on the topic make it clear that my reading of the passage is the normal way for WH40k players to interpret the description of the Harlequin's Kiss. Namely, it is not a weapon with a 100m range, something that is called "close combat" not because WH40k has especially long combat ranges (as Connor is quoted claiming above), but because it is used on opponents close enough to touch.

But I think there is something to be said for the fact that especially with WH40k, you want to have very good sourcing. There's some inaccurate information floating around online, and not just bad analysis by VS debaters, either. I recall running into that earlier when debating WH40k.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I have observed, by recent comments on SDN, that I was wrong in my understanding of the Eldar plasma grenade.
Lexicanum, which I myself commented on being short of info, and luckily I could actually find the information. Lexicanum seemingly managed to fuse two weapon descriptions into one, actually extrapolating on information without being clear enough: Photon Flash Flare and Plasma Grenade, the second one clearly being a destructive weapon of arcane conception, no doubt about that anymore. It probably uses a very small amount of antimatter, along possible other elements and mechanics allowing the formation of what would perhaps be the equivalent of a fancier lightning ball.
The miniature sun is probably what led the Lexicanum author to consider that the weapon had flash properties, although I didn't see any thus far attributed to the weapon... which is rather odd, to say the least.
We would have to understand it as the plasma ball is not blinding then, but isn't logical.

Now, let's return to Connor's interpretation. He obtained a yield in the gigajoule range for a grenade. At first glance, it would clearly appear to be totally absurd, for the Eldar equivalent of a hand grenade.

Page 63

Plasma is an unpleasant and unstable material in a highly energised state - when a plasma grenade explodes it creates a shining ball of plasma like a miniature sun.

Plasma is described as "unstable", and creating a "miniature sun" - which might imply a fusion reaction, but may also just mean a ball of incandescent plasma some diameter (a couple metres is probably a safe conservative estimate - say 2 meters diameter. density of air is about 1.3 kg*m^3 see here
about 5-6 kg of air.

Assuming a temp of around say 2 million degrees Kelvin for plasma, and specific heat see here is around 1 kilojoule per kg*K. So basically aorund 1-2 GJ per kg of matter. so, basically a single/double digit GJ even, more or less.

Connor didn't really bother considering what would happen beyond the range of the fireball. 2 million K in an Earth-like atmosphere represents a massive amount of radiating energy, from the boundaries of this plasma ball.
That alone should be a problem, for sheer radiations would be just as dangerous and lethal over many more meters, but such is not the way the rules make the weapon work.

Miniature sun is still good enough when considered sheer hyperbole: it's nothing more than a ball of light, hot and perhaps blinding.
No one said that said "sun" would have to be white hot either.
With light being thermal in origin, that leaves a wide range of temperatures which certainly need not being so high.

Let's check out this source:

15.7
Microwave Excited Atmospheric Glow Discharges

Microwave-excited discharges have become populer with the availability of low cost high power microwave sources espcially the microwave oven frequency at 2.45 GHz. A persistent stimulus to investigations of APGDs using miocrowaves is the early work of Kapitza[63], who observed plasmas using very high-power rf excitation and made suggestions on their relevance to "ball lightning." Plasma have been excited by focused microwaves in free space[64], and unfocused in waveguides[65], and in microwave cavities[66]. As would be expected, the powers required to ignite the plasma and to maintain it decrease with the increasing Q of the experimental cavity or applicator. In the report of Stephan, 2006[65], power levels of 400-600 W formed the plasma after ignition was aided with electrodes orthogonal to the microwave propgationax axis. At atmospheric pressure buyancy effects were observed and estimated volumes of 15 to 25 cm³ were obtained.

A 2 meters wide sphere has a volume of 4.1888 m³, which corresponds to 4,188,800 cm³.
With a ratio of 600 W for 15 cm³, the extrapolated power for the corresponding plasma volume of the grenade, would be 167,552 kW.
With a ratio of 400 W for 25 cm³, the extrapolated power for the corresponding plasma volume of the grenade, would be 67,020 kW.

Let's work with something more reliable: lightning bolts.

We can already reduce Connor's figure by using a template such a lightning plasma.
Peak temperatures are found at 28,000~30,000 K.
Lightning bolts also form at 20,000 K. This would immediately return an energy figure two orders of magnitude lower than Connor's 2 GJ estimate: since he used a temperature of 2 e6 K, the final energy figure based on lightning bolt temperatures would be 20 MJ.

Of course, no one ever said the plasma ball would have to be as bright as a lightning bolt.

[Mr. Oragahn]

A small footnote on whips: A long bullwhip may be up to 20' long and will be supersonic.

The weapon described, however, while it may contain 100m of wire, shows no indication of having the 100m effective range he claims. The coil is quite literally pushed into the victim from point blank, and in order to turn the insides "to soup" requires not that the coil stretch out to its full 100m length (which would sever the victim in half), but rather that the coil loosens and expands to about a cubic meter of volume, making many small cuts outward at different angles, close together to each other. To call this weapon a whip, or to claim it has a 100m effective range, seems incorrect. I checked for other descriptions online, and all seem to agree that this weapon is something deployed against a single victim at the range of a punch.

Indeed. While I got a bit of mockery for being unfortunate enough to chose to reference Lexicanum, I may return the compliment and remind those dear readers that the Harlequins Kiss is a hand to head weapon.

There's also this piece of info:

The Harlequins Kiss may be used against armoured targets such as dreadnoughts and vehicles, but it cannot cause damage unless it is able to penetrate the armour protecting the crew.
...
Chances are that the Kiss won't penetrate even the most weakly protected vehicle...

[l33telboi]

Plasma is described as "unstable", and creating a "miniature sun" - which might imply a fusion reaction, but may also just mean a ball of incandescent plasma some diameter (a couple metres is probably a safe conservative estimate - say 2 meters diameter. density of air is about 1.3 kg*m^3 see here
about 5-6 kg of air.

Assuming a temp of around say 2 million degrees Kelvin for plasma, and specific heat see here is around 1 kilojoule per kg*K. So basically aorund 1-2 GJ per kg of matter. so, basically a single/double digit GJ even, more or less.

I think what I dislike most in his calculations are all his assumptions. In this case for instance, why are we supposed to assume the fireball should be two meters in diameter? Why is this a 'safe conservative estimate'? And why is this ball supposed to be 2,000,000 degrees K? There’s absolutely no justification given for these assumptions.

I think in this case the problem might stem from the fact that he doesn't understand just what is being described. This 'plasma ball' is nothing exotic or weird. It's the exact same thing we see in nuclear weapons, only smaller in size and yield. In short, it's identical to a nuclear fireball. And it’s not the sphere of plasma that’s the sole thing to be concerned about either - it’s the shockwave that such a thing creates that’s dangerous. Just like in nuclear explosions. And gauging what effects a nuclear fireball would have inside an atmosphere is dirt easy, because it's pretty much identical to what modern explosives do.

If this is a 1-2 GJ grenade, then it will have a similar shockwave as a 1-2 GJ modern explosive.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think what I dislike most in his calculations are all his assumptions. In this case for instance, why are we supposed to assume the fireball should be two meters in diameter? Why is this a 'safe conservative estimate'? And why is this ball supposed to be 2,000,000 degrees K? There’s absolutely no justification given for these assumptions.

This is another thing annoys me about those who have to wank their favorite franchise's tech up. You see this sort of thing on Wong, Saxton and Young's SW pages quite a bit, and here is no different. Why are these assumptions safe and conservative? Because I say so, that's why!
-Mike