Trekvs40k(again)

[Enosh]

in the BFG rule book, the little fluff pieces near the description of every ship

and 12 years is actualy quite impresive when it is made by a max of 50k people with a pre bronze age level of technology, ofcourse they didn't actualy build the whole thing by themself since there is no way they could build sensors, weapons etc with such a low tech, but they mined the material for all of the hull and they were just mining, they weren't mining to death

[The Dude]

OK, I see it now. It is pretty impressive but judging IoM shipbuilding by a single example of a Feral World is pretty silly. That's like judging the worlds capacity for ship building by the standards of Somalia.

[Enosh]

I know, but it is the only concrete thing there is, so there isn't much choice as to what to mention^^

[l33telboi]

I'm not sure how the pre-heresy fleet compares to the post-heresy stuff, but we do have a solid figure for how many ships there were pre-heresy. It'd be logical for pre-heresy stuff to be larger, because back during this time humanity wasn't as bad off as it was post-heresy, and chaos stuff is still part of the IoM. Horus hasn't given the Emperor the finger and split the fleet. But like I said, I'm not sure on the specifics between post- and pre-heresy stuff. In any case:

At that time, according to War Council logs, there were four thousand two hundred and eighty-seven primary expedition fleets engaged upon the business of the crusade, as well as sixty thousand odd secondary deployment groups involved in compliance or occupation endeavours, with a further three hundred and seventy-two primary expeditions in regroup and refit, or resupplying as they awaited new tasking orders.

4,287 primary fleets, 60,000 secondary deployment groups, 372 primaries in regroup and refit.

...Now for some reason I can't seem to find another quote I'm sure was in there somewhere, a quote about the specific numbers of the entire fleet. Maybe I'm just missremembering? In any case, we saw a number of primary fleets in the novels (even the most important fleet with the Warmaster), and they weren't all that large, less then a hundred ships for each fleet, and then most of them weren't actual warships, but support ships. We're talking somewhere around, or a little less then, 100,000 ships when it comes to the primary fleets. I'm not sure what 'secondary deployment groups' are supposed to be (quite likely the garrisons they left behind to control a world after it'd been conquered), or how many ships they have.

The only specifics I can find on fleet sizes is this, but it says it's a small fleet, so...

The 140th Expedition was a small, compact force of eighteen carriers, mass conveyances and escorts supporting the noble battle-barge Misericord. Its martial composition was three companies of Blood Angels under Captain Frome, and four thousand men of the Imperial army, with allied armour, but no Mechanicum force.

[sonofccn]

Thanks l33telboi for the quotes. Those numbers are very interesting but if I'm not mistaken this should have been during the Great Crusade from which the Iom was built from the ashes of a far grander human empire and was only a couple centuries old at this point. I mention only because it isn't impossible the Iom has been upgrading it's industrial ability during the next ten thousand years even if it's tech has been slipping.

Here's what I've been able to dig up. On this document page 7 I found out this fact about the Imperial Overlord Battlecruiser class.

Three vessels served in the the sector fleet during the Gothic war:the flame of Purity, Sword of Retribution and Cypra Probatii. The latter was completed during the war and arrived in the Gothic Sector only after a difficult and hazardous journey through the warp

According to this document the Gothic war lasted from 143.m41 to 160.m41 for a maximum span of 17 years. If we assume the Cypra Probatii was started at the outbreak of the Gothic war, to keep construction to a minimum, and we assume it was completed halfway through the war, it was neither stated to come in early in the war or late merely completed in it, we would would be looking at eight point five years to construct what is described as a difficult and time consuming vessel. Now if the ship was completed in the first quarter of the war, which one would think would warrant it being mentioned deploying early in the war, we are still looking at roughly 4 years to construct. So final bracket is somewhere between 4-8 years for the construction of an Imperial Overlord battlecruiser.

[The Dude]

Thanks l33telboi for the quotes. Those numbers are very interesting but if I'm not mistaken this should have been during the Great Crusade from which the Iom was built from the ashes of a far grander human empire and was only a couple centuries old at this point. I mention only because it isn't impossible the Iom has been upgrading it's industrial ability during the next ten thousand years even if it's tech has been slipping.

The HH series is short on details but the IoM is still expanding in M41, with Crusades into various places in the galaxy. Mechanicum also mentions that Mars has yet to be given control over the other Forge Worlds at the start of the Heresy.

Part of the problem with 40K is that the authors and the guys managing the setting really don't care about details like this. It's the "rule of cool", which makes the setting both awesome and frustrating.

[sonofccn]

Okay was reading through the history of the gothic war again and found a refrence to the Cypra Probatii which was in service no later than 149.m41 which would put it's contruction no longer than six years and likely much shorter as no mention was made of the ship just being built or recently arriving. My new revised estimate would be 4 years or less.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Is a planet killer renown Chaos fleet of relevance for comparison, in search of a typical IoM fleet?
For example, if we know that a given Chaos fleet typically counts N ships, could we say that an IoM fleet would be similar, or x*N?

[sonofccn]

Is a planet killer renown Chaos fleet of relevance for comparison, in search of a typical IoM fleet?
For example, if we know that a given Chaos fleet typically counts N ships, could we say that an IoM fleet would be similar, or x*N?

Well any data should be helpful in helping us find a bracket. It mentions in the history,page eight, of the 13th crusade that there was anywhere from 8 to twenty choas fleets which rivaled the fleet commanded by Ravensburg. Chaos than should be fielding fleets on average comparable to the Imperium but as far as I know there are not anymore hard numbers on thier fleets as thier are on the Imperium. The same document, page 10, specificly describes a large pirate fleet which consited of fifty escorts, two salvaged lunar cruisers and one captured Gothic cruiser but conversly this was at the hieght of a war the Imperium was losing and almost any fleet would be considered large since they couldn't spare the ships to fight them.

[The Dude]

Well any data should be helpful in helping us find a bracket. It mentions in the history,page eight, of the 13th crusade that there was anywhere from 8 to twenty choas fleets which rivaled the fleet commanded by Ravensburg. Chaos than should be fielding fleets on average comparable to the Imperium but as far as I know there are not anymore hard numbers on thier fleets as thier are on the Imperium. The same document, page 10, specificly describes a large pirate fleet which consited of fifty escorts, two salvaged lunar cruisers and one captured Gothic cruiser but conversly this was at the hieght of a war the Imperium was losing and almost any fleet would be considered large since they couldn't spare the ships to fight them.

It's difficult to pin down anything on Chaos fleets cause they are built in the Eye of Terror in which time passes differently. Some of the ships also don't require crew due to daemons manning them or empowering their weapons etc.

My guess is that they can get away with smaller fleets that punch above their weight thanks to the Warp.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Is a planet killer renown Chaos fleet of relevance for comparison, in search of a typical IoM fleet?
For example, if we know that a given Chaos fleet typically counts N ships, could we say that an IoM fleet would be similar, or x*N?

Well any data should be helpful in helping us find a bracket. It mentions in the history,page eight, of the 13th crusade that there was anywhere from 8 to twenty choas fleets which rivaled the fleet commanded by Ravensburg. Chaos than should be fielding fleets on average comparable to the Imperium but as far as I know there are not anymore hard numbers on thier fleets as thier are on the Imperium. The same document, page 10, specificly describes a large pirate fleet which consited of fifty escorts, two salvaged lunar cruisers and one captured Gothic cruiser but conversly this was at the hieght of a war the Imperium was losing and almost any fleet would be considered large since they couldn't spare the ships to fight them.

Big document you linked to. Apparently, it's official.
I happen to have some kind of RPG supplement, by Tim Driscole, for Execution Hour that gives info on Abbadon's fleet that includes planet killers. The layout appears to be similar to that document, so it could be canon.

The introduction:

The current situation is this. The planet of
Belatis is doomed, its execution hour has been
set and Abaddon the Despoiler’s Planet Killer
fleet are en route through the Warp. The
Imperium have no hope of defending the
planet, so are hastily abandoning it.
The Imperial Navy have constructed an
evacuation fleet to rescue important people
and resources from the planet before the
Planet Killer arrives. This fleet is currently in
orbit around Belatis and includes an Adeptus
Arbites Strike Cruiser, the Inviolable
Retribution, to collect the embattled Arbites
garrison. Two Sword class frigates, the Pegasus
and the Achilles, are posted out-system to
guard against the Chaos fleet’s approach.

I'm not sure if the entire fleet has been built there, or if the warships were brought from some other place. I'd go with option 1, with those ships built in situ.

• Imperial Forces
  
  Lord Solar Macharius (Ld 7)
  Dictator class Cruiser
  Drachenfels (Ld 9) Gothic class Cruiser
  Graf Orlock (Ld 8) Lunar class Cruiser
  Borodino (Ld 8) Lunar class Cruiser
  Inviolable Retribution (Ld 9)
  Adeptus Arbites Strike Cruiser (see below)
  Pegasus and Achilles (Ld 7)
  Sword class Frigates
  15 Imperial Transports
  1 Orbital Dock
  2 Space Stations
  2 Orbital Laser Platforms
  2 Orbital Weapon Platforms
  150 points of Imperial Escort vessels
  (with random leadership) of any class
• Chaos Forces
  
  Arriving on Turn 1
  
  Charybdis (Ld 8)
  Murder class Cruiser
  2 squadrons of 5 Infidel class Raiders (Ld 8)
  
  From Turn 2
  
  3 defence laser silos (may start firing from
  Turn 2. They may not be attacked until they
  have opened fired)
  
  Arriving on Turn 3
  
  Virulent (Ld 8) Slaughter class Cruiser,
  commanded by Bulus Sirl, Chaos Lord with
  Mark of Nurgle
  3 defence missile silos (may only fire once)
  
  Arriving on Turn 5
  
  Scylla (Ld 9) Styx class Heavy Crusier
  Kali (Ld 7) Slaughter class Cruiser
  Planet Killer (Ld 10) commanded by Abbadon
  the Despoiler, Warmaster of Chaos
  Harbinger of Doom (Ld 10)
  Chaos Space Marine Battle Barge
  Deathlord (Ld 10) Desolator class Battleship
  Despoiler (Ld 10) Desolator class Battleship
  300 pts of Chaos Escort vessels
  (with random Leadership) any class
• First turn
  
  The Chaos fleet takes the first turn.

Also, there's a battle between an IoM fleet and a Chaos fleet featured in the exceprt here.

[Khas]

The Tau , and any Ork worlds within thier territory,

Wow. The only two races in 40K I like sent into the ST universe.