The Ori somehow invade the ST universe, who wins?

[PunkMaister]

^ Mike all of that is irrelevant because the Ori are not concerned whether people genuinely believe they are gods but that they obey their will or else suffer the consequences. It is only through sheer terror that they maintain their power. They could easily browbeat less advanced civilizations into submission and use them as canon fodder. Heck even advanced worlds would have problems facing the Priors and their plethora of plagues, earthquakes and so on that they can unleash without breaking a sweat on any world they choose too.

[Mike DiCenso]

Hardly irrelevant since the point was that many of the major races will not simply roll over and worship the Ori as true gods, and it is likely that the Ori will face some form of organized resistance, especially from the higher level beings, much in the same way as the Acended and Ancients oppose the Ori in the SG-verse.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

Hardly irrelevant since the point was that many of the major races will not simply roll over and worship the Ori as true gods, and it is likely that the Ori will face some form of organized resistance, especially from the higher level beings, much in the same way as the Acended and Ancients oppose the Ori in the SG-verse.
-Mike

The Ascended Ancients formed a resistance? They did nothing! They allowed to terrorize and forcefully convert nearly the whole Galaxy it was Morgana and Merlin only 2 ascended ancients that decided to take some action against the wishes of the majority of their peers.

And no one rolled over they simply had no choice! It was either worship the damned Ori or face extermination at the hands of the Priors, Adria and the rest of the extragalactic followers army. The only ones in the whole show that rolled over was Gerak and a politician from Kologna who willingly rolled over, the rest were simply cowered into submission.

[sonofccn]

Hardly irrelevant since the point was that many of the major races will not simply roll over and worship the Ori as true gods, and it is likely that the Ori will face some form of organized resistance, especially from the higher level beings, much in the same way as the Acended and Ancients oppose the Ori in the SG-verse.
-Mike

Please forgive my intrustion but here are my two cents on the matter.

1. The Ori would be the first demigod(s) to activly pursue worship in the trek galaxy that I am aware of, neither the prophets nor the Q ever attempted this to my knoweldge. The only time this has ever occured that I am aware of would be Adonais who first wanted them to give up everything to live ancient greek style, had a convient power source Kirk could destroy, and truly didn't want to go the distance. A prior would have snapped Kirk's neck or given his crew a plague to convince them to worship the ori.

I don't think Humanity, or Klingons etc, are going to drop down in mass to worship these beings but I think some very well would. The Ori argument seems pretty agreeable, you pray to the Ori, recite a few stories from thier "bible" and they'll perform miracles not all of which can be easily duplicated by standard 24th tech, the Ori are gods by any reasnable defination.

2. Of the two groups all things being equal it would be Religious people who would resiest the Ori more since they already have something to believe in. Converting someone who has faith isn't easy barring pray to me or I'll nuke your village tactics. A race that doesn't believe in a divine being would be more willing to embrace something like the Ori. You need fanatics to fight fanatics in other words. :)

Once again I'm not saying there will be instant galaxy conversion but the Ori repersent a new threat of having the powers of a god and actually wanting to be one. There will be people even in the federation who don't see the Ori as evil and think thier getting the ultimate evolultion for praying to them, an afterlife that is more tangible so to speak then customary religions.

[PunkMaister]

Once again I'm not saying there will be instant galaxy conversion but the Ori repersent a new threat of having the powers of a god and actually wanting to be one. There will be people even in the federation who don't see the Ori as evil and think thier getting the ultimate evolultion for praying to them, an afterlife that is more tangible so to speak then customary religions.

Indeed...

[Mike DiCenso]

Hardly irrelevant since the point was that many of the major races will not simply roll over and worship the Ori as true gods, and it is likely that the Ori will face some form of organized resistance, especially from the higher level beings, much in the same way as the Acended and Ancients oppose the Ori in the SG-verse.
-Mike

The Ascended Ancients formed a resistance? They did nothing! They allowed to terrorize and forcefully convert nearly the whole Galaxy it was Morgana and Merlin only 2 ascended ancients that decided to take some action against the wishes of the majority of their peers.

And no one rolled over they simply had no choice! It was either worship the damned Ori or face extermination at the hands of the Priors, Adria and the rest of the extragalactic followers army. The only ones in the whole show that rolled over was Gerak and a politician from Kologna who willingly rolled over, the rest were simply cowered into submission.

Note quite. From the SG wiki:

While the Ancients will attempt to stop the Ori, they will not attempt to stop their human followers. One Ancient named Merlin, however, was aware of the threat the Ori would one day present, and designed a weapon capable of neutralizing an ascended being, killing it. (SG1: "Arthur's Mantle").

The Ancients also hid from the Ori the existance of populations in the Milky Way and Pegasus galaxies:

Dr. Daniel Jackson suspected that it is because of this difference in strength that the Ancients have been able to prevent the Ori from gaining the knowledge that the Milky Way galaxy is populated, and possibly the Pegasus galaxy as well. The Ancients will not intercede in the free will of lower species, nor will they prevent unbelievers from converting to follow the Ori. If unbelievers don't convert, the Ori will destroy large numbers of the unbelievers.

Again, it is not as though the Ancients as a whole are doing nothing, they oppose the Ori, but on their level, however the Ori side-stepped around that by using their human followers to do their dirty work because the Ancients won't generally interfere in the free-will of mortal beings. However there are advanced beings in the Trek-verse that, if provoked sufficently, will likely get involved. The Organians will most certainly do something, if the Ori followers decide to invade their world, perhaps even shutting down their entire fleet, if hostilities are not ceased. The Q probably will do something about the Ori themselves, since the Ori do not like sharing power, or like having other advanced beings around who do not share their ideas. The Prophets will, if Bajor is sufficently threatened, or if Sisko convinces them to, will get involved. On a power scale, the Ori are much closer to the Prophets than they are to something omnipotent and all-powerful as the Q.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Hardly irrelevant since the point was that many of the major races will not simply roll over and worship the Ori as true gods, and it is likely that the Ori will face some form of organized resistance, especially from the higher level beings, much in the same way as the Acended and Ancients oppose the Ori in the SG-verse.
-Mike

Please forgive my intrustion but here are my two cents on the matter.

1. The Ori would be the first demigod(s) to activly pursue worship in the trek galaxy that I am aware of, neither the prophets nor the Q ever attempted this to my knoweldge. The only time this has ever occured that I am aware of would be Adonais who first wanted them to give up everything to live ancient greek style, had a convient power source Kirk could destroy, and truly didn't want to go the distance. A prior would have snapped Kirk's neck or given his crew a plague to convince them to worship the ori.

I don't think Humanity, or Klingons etc, are going to drop down in mass to worship these beings but I think some very well would. The Ori argument seems pretty agreeable, you pray to the Ori, recite a few stories from thier "bible" and they'll perform miracles not all of which can be easily duplicated by standard 24th tech, the Ori are gods by any reasnable defination.

The Prophets and their counterparts, the Pah-Wraiths are a borderline case of desiring or encouraging active worship by at least the Bajoran people. Also fighting stronger beings, like the Oracle from "For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky" that can and will kill is nothing new to Kirk. The fake God being from ST5 is another example of this, and is another being that desired power and worship... and remember that someone imprisoned that being on Sha-Ka-Ree, too. So it's not as though the Ori will have a cakewalk as they enter the Trek-verse... they will be stepping on a lot of advanced beings' proverbial toes in the process.

Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due" was able to create earth-quakes and other phenomena... all done technologically and with little trouble.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

Hardly irrelevant since the point was that many of the major races will not simply roll over and worship the Ori as true gods, and it is likely that the Ori will face some form of organized resistance, especially from the higher level beings, much in the same way as the Acended and Ancients oppose the Ori in the SG-verse.
-Mike

Please forgive my intrustion but here are my two cents on the matter.

1. The Ori would be the first demigod(s) to activly pursue worship in the trek galaxy that I am aware of, neither the prophets nor the Q ever attempted this to my knoweldge. The only time this has ever occured that I am aware of would be Adonais who first wanted them to give up everything to live ancient greek style, had a convient power source Kirk could destroy, and truly didn't want to go the distance. A prior would have snapped Kirk's neck or given his crew a plague to convince them to worship the ori.

I don't think Humanity, or Klingons etc, are going to drop down in mass to worship these beings but I think some very well would. The Ori argument seems pretty agreeable, you pray to the Ori, recite a few stories from thier "bible" and they'll perform miracles not all of which can be easily duplicated by standard 24th tech, the Ori are gods by any reasnable defination.

The Prophets and their counterparts, the Pah-Wraiths are a borderline case of desiring or encouraging active worship by at least the Bajoran people. Also fighting stronger beings, like the Oracle from "For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky" that can and will kill is nothing new to Kirk. The fake God being from ST5 is another example of this, and is another being that desired power and worship... and remember that someone imprisoned that being on Sha-Ka-Ree, too. So it's not as though the Ori will have a cakewalk as they enter the Trek-verse... they will be stepping on a lot of advanced beings' proverbial toes in the process.

Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due" was able to create earth-quakes and other phenomena... all done technologically and with little trouble.

-Mike

You are forgetting none of them promise ascension as the Ori do even though falsely as they do not share power. The lure to become an ascended being as powerful as the Ori could be a powerful one and who is to tell them they are being deceived?

[sonofccn]

The Prophets and their counterparts, the Pah-Wraiths are a borderline case of desiring or encouraging active worship by at least the Bajoran people.

While I can't speak for the Pah-Wraiths IIRC the Prophets were originally simply your standard 4 dimensional beings who happened to visit from thier wormhole to bajor from time to time. They didn't even understand 3rd dimensional creatures until after they met sisko and the worship up to that point was largely done by the Bajorns because the prophets were magical. The wormhole aliens were not pushing thier religion at all.

Also fighting stronger beings, like the Oracle from "For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky" that can and will kill is nothing new to Kirk.

That was simply a computer pretending to be a god, nothing new in Kirk's day, and was basicly on par with dealing with Klingons on a threat level. The Greek god was a better example in my opinion but as I pointed out he was asking a lot for the privlige of worshiping him were the Ori offer you immortality, miracles and even super technology. Some people will be tempted.

The fake God being from ST5 is another example of this, and is another being that desired power and worship

Which with the exception of Kirk the entire landing party was ready to believe it and this being did not display a fraction of the power a typical Prior has at his disposal. In the end my point remains, while there are a dime a dozen advanced races with god like powers none of the ones not imprisoned activly seek out to be worshiped. The Ori make an interesting offer and even if every starfleet officer doesn't take the bait what about the billions of civilian forces? A few thousand out of the entire federation converting over could prove pivitol in a war.

Also would the Federation allow the worship of the Ori? I mean assume the followers were not overtly against the federation but simply prayed to the Ori, passed out pamplets trying to peacefully convert others, etc.

So it's not as though the Ori will have a cakewalk as they enter the Trek-verse... they will be stepping on a lot of advanced beings' proverbial toes in the process.

That I do agree with. Q and several other advanced beings have...let say a backbone compared to the ancients or call it a lesser degree of morals when concerning Q. The problem is how do you quantify god like beings? Q could snap his fingers and the entire Ori revert into chimps or Q could be erased from existence. We have no way of knowing.

Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due" was able to create earth-quakes and other phenomena... all done technologically and with little trouble.

Correct but a Prior can do all that with a stick. It is a slightly differnt playing field when the fraud actually has god like powers and has technobabble explanation for them.

[PunkMaister]

Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due" was able to create earth-quakes and other phenomena... all done technologically and with little trouble.

Correct but a Prior can do all that with a stick. It is a slightly differnt playing field when the fraud actually has god like powers and has technobabble explanation for them.

Precisely...

[GStone]

That I do agree with. Q and several other advanced beings have...let say a backbone compared to the ancients or call it a lesser degree of morals when concerning Q. The problem is how do you quantify god like beings? Q could snap his fingers and the entire Ori revert into chimps or Q could be erased from existence. We have no way of knowing.

I'd say go with how they do their stuff. The Q evolved, though there seems that there may have been some metaphysical/philosophical components, too, with it. The Prophets somehow came about without having a physical form, but I'd say both do their thing in different ways, since they have different natures.

Correct but a Prior can do all that with a stick. It is a slightly differnt playing field when the fraud actually has god like powers and has technobabble explanation for them.

The prior had a 'thing' he held, Ardra had a thing in orbit that linked to her with sensors. The changes to the priors seem to be a rewiring of the brain.

[PunkMaister]

I'd say go with how they do their stuff. The Q evolved, though there seems that there may have been some metaphysical/philosophical components, too, with it. The Prophets somehow came about without having a physical form, but I'd say both do their thing in different ways, since they have different natures.

Is my understanding the Q never had a true physical form either. They probably started out being something not so different from what the Ascended ancients and the Ori are.

The prior had a 'thing' he held, Ardra had a thing in orbit that linked to her with sensors. The changes to the priors seem to be a rewiring of the brain.

No it did not all that amulet did was create a shield that protected her from the Dakara Genesis-like weapon. She controlled the ship solely with her powers. The staff the Priors use have a crystal that seemingly amplifies their base powers plus has a minimal intra-galactic subspace link as evidenced in the "Ark of truth".

[GStone]

I think you're confusing Ardra (the TNG congirl that had a cloacked ship) and the Ori in flesh Adria (played by Morena Baccarin).

Is my understanding the Q never had a true physical form either. They probably started out being something not so different from what the Ascended ancients and the Ori are.

According to the Q that wanted to off himself, the Q were once human-like and they evolved. But, when Q (John de Lancie) gets 'shot' in the revolutionary war recreation to represent the Q civil war, he tells Janeway the Q have always existed. This is a metaphysical/philosophical perspective found with many religions, some of which are of india/asia origin. Both of these happened in Voyager.

So, for both to be true, and the staff aren't total dumbfucks, SuicidalQ might have been using a materialist perspective and JohndeLancieQ could be from the more spiritual bent of Q society.

[Mike DiCenso]

You are forgetting none of them promise ascension as the Ori do even though falsely as they do not share power. The lure to become an ascended being as powerful as the Ori could be a powerful one and who is to tell them they are being deceived?

What of that? It might be treated in the same way as any other used car salesman/flim-flam artists' spiel. Show me the goods and then I'll follow you. A similar situation happened when Kirk defeated the Gorgon (another non-corporeal being with super-powers that craves followers, power and worship by mortal beings) in TOS' "And the Children Shall Lead".
-Mike

[Enterprise E]

One more thing that will be of interest is what happens if some people on a particular world, especially in the Federation, worship the Ori, and others don't? The Ori would want the worshipers to wipe out the non-believers. However, the Federation law and morality would prevent something like this. Not only that, but there are several passages that seem to indicate that this type of act wasn't looked upon favorably at first in Origin. Daniel Jackson even used a passage from the Book of Origin to try to dissuade the Ori fleet from attacking when they first sent their ships through the Supergate. Given the fact that there will be a divide between the worshipers and non-believers, it won't be long before the Ori start telling their worshipers to start killing those who don't believe. Even if the Federation at first does not forbid the worship of the Ori, what happens when civil unrest begins and people start to die because they don't worship the Ori? What happens when the non-believers retaliate? I think that things would at first be okay, but after a few months or a year or so, things get really ugly, really fast.