Starfighter Battle

[Enterprise E]

Which of these is the best fighter:

X-Wing (Star Wars)
TIE Fighter (Star Wars)
Viper (Neo Battlestar Galactica)
Cylon Raider (Neo Battlestar Galactica)
Deathglider (Stargate)
Wraith Dart (Stargate)
F-302 (Stargate)
Starfury (Babylon 5)

Scenario 1 - A race from Earth to Jupiter (no FTL).
Scenario 2 - A one-on-one fight against the others.
Scenario 3 - Free for all battle.

[Mike DiCenso]

Speed/acceleration-wise, the X-wing, TIE, and all the Stargate starfighters will have a pretty good race. The NBSG and B5 fighters will be left in the proverbial dust.

In a straight one-on-one match, most of the Stargate stuff rules over the SW ones, and especially over the NBSG and B5 ships. In a free for all, the NBSG fighters and B5 ones will maybe get a lucky kill while the others are distracted and or damaged heavily.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

I'd sooner say that the nBSG fighters would be dominant in the maneuverability and speed category, because they're faster then most of the other stuff we've ever seen in visual sci-fi. Plus they can rotate without changing flight direction, which gives them more options in a dogfight.

Granted, they might not do well in the Jupiter race, since some verses (Stargate, Star Wars) do show great speeds and acceleration outside of combat situations, but when it comes to combat speeds and behaviour they should be dominant.

Jupiter race would fall to Stargate. Because it was actually done there, in less time that would possible without accounting for relativistic effects.

[Praeothmin]

I was under the impression that the Defiant was the best starfighter around... :)

Let's face it, it's as maneuverable as most of the crafts mentioned here, plus it has more of everything else (weapons, shields, armor, sensors, etc...)...

;)

[PunkMaister]

Jupiter race would fall to Stargate. Because it was actually done there, in less time that would possible without accounting for relativistic effects.

Agreed on that one and yes when it comes to one one maneuverability NBSG fighters are top of the line.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'd sooner say that the nBSG fighters would be dominant in the maneuverability and speed category, because they're faster then most of the other stuff we've ever seen in visual sci-fi. Plus they can rotate without changing flight direction, which gives them more options in a dogfight.

In terms of being able to thrust and rotate on axis, yes, the nBSG fighters are way ahead of the game along with the B5 Starfury. As for speed and acceleration, do you have anything to back up that assertion? From a relative in-universe standpoint, they are fast fighters, but they've not to my knowledge demonstated any ability to accelerate to a high fraction of c they way the X-wings and Stargate fighters have.

Granted, they might not do well in the Jupiter race, since some verses (Stargate, Star Wars) do show great speeds and acceleration outside of combat situations, but when it comes to combat speeds and behaviour they should be dominant.

Jupiter race would fall to Stargate. Because it was actually done there, in less time that would possible without accounting for relativistic effects.

They won't be that dominate since they have to somehow shoot their bullets through most of the other starfighters' shields and armor. The only starfighter they are on an equal footing with is the Starfury, since they all do not have any kind of energy shielding to protect themselves and are not able to match the massive high-Gee accelerations of the SW and SG ships.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

In terms of being able to thrust and rotate on axis, yes, the nBSG fighters are way ahead of the game along with the B5 Starfury. As for speed and acceleration, do you have anything to back up that assertion? From a relative in-universe standpoint, they are fast fighters, but they've not to my knowledge demonstated any ability to accelerate to a high fraction of c they way the X-wings and Stargate fighters have.

Whether they have that capability or not is irrelevant, because that acceleration is never ever used in combat situations. Only when making long linear trips. Actual combat maneuverability and speed, as shown on-screen, is much higher for the Vipers and Raiders.

They won't be that dominate since they have to somehow shoot their bullets through most of the other starfighters' shields and armor.

Let me repeat the important part: "but when it comes to combat speeds and behavior they should be dominant." Naturally the weaponry would be a problem because it’s weaker then on the other vessels, but so far I've not commented on that aspect of the scenario. Still, raiders do have missiles, which should pack enough punch to take down just about anything. And I doubt the Starfury's cockpit could take hits from the autocannons on the vipers/raiders. And a Wraith Darts definitely couldn't.

The only starfighter they are on an equal footing with is the Starfury, since they all do not have any kind of energy shielding to protect themselves and are not able to match the massive high-Gee accelerations of the SW and SG ships.

The only ship that's shielded out of all of those is the X-wing. And like I said earlier, the top-accelerations are a non-issue in a dogfight.

[Mike DiCenso]

Whether they have that capability or not is irrelevant, because that acceleration is never ever used in combat situations. Only when making long linear trips. Actual combat maneuverability and speed, as shown on-screen, is much higher for the Vipers and Raiders.

There is nothing that says that in deep-space combat the X-wing or other fighters have to slow down, as they do when engaging at close quarters around larger, slow-moving craft, like an ISD, Mon Calamari cruisers, or the Death Stars. The ability to accelerate away provides an ideal way of disengaging the other fighters, then re-engaging them at a point of their own choosing when it is advantageous to them to do so. Also, I have yet to see anything that shows proof about this assertion that the nBSG fighters are capable of faster combat accelerations.

I do agree that the ability to follow real physics and flip about on axis while still travelling along the velocity vector does confer a number of important advantages in space dogfighting.

The only ship that's shielded out of all of those is the X-wing. And like I said earlier, the top-accelerations are a non-issue in a dogfight.

I have yet to see anything proving the combat acceleration superiority of the Vipers, either the Mark IIs or the Mark VIIs. Can you perhaps cite a comparative example? As for missile weapons, the Viper and Raider missiles seem to be useful more for anti-capital ship combat then for dogfighting.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Actually, there is something that says their combat speeds are much slower then the maximum long-range accelerations - Every single battle we've ever seen. There have even been specific incidents that proves that there’s a difference, like when Anakin is trying to escape the ion cannon on the malevolence, where he says 'give it all you got' and the fighter still doesn't move faster then what we see on-screen during combat situations. It was a life and death type of thing, so if he could've accelerated, he would've. But he didn't, and as a result several of his fighter squad was disabled (if not killed).

And that's the problem, while there have been some indications of higher accelerations, like the trip from Yavin to the Death Star, the fighters, while in combat, never use these sorts of accelerations. There has to be a reason for this.

While we don’t know the specific reason for why that is, it's rather simple to deal with the problem in versus debating though. When a ship is engaged in combat, we assume the ship accelerates like they have been shown to do in combat. And when making long linear trips, we assume they accelerate the way they do on long linear trips. In other words, we assume they behave the way they’ve been shown to behave on-screen.

What I'm not prepared to do however, is assume that the SG/SW fighters will start behaving massively out-of-character for the duration of this thread.

As for the actual differences between the combat accelerations on the two, the single most impressive feat was here, when Adama was fighting inside an atmosphere against old-style cylon fighters. The accelerations he pulled were higher then anything I've ever seen in visual sci-fi. However, note that this is not some single instance I'm using as evidence here, the accelerations/maneuverability is better across the board. You can literally take any fighter combat situation from the SW movies or SG series and compare that with any of the fighter combat situation from nBSG, and nBSG fighters will come out on top.

As for missiles, raider missiles have been used almost exclusively in fighter on fighter dogfights, unless the raiders have been armed with nuclear weapons, that is. Vipers are another issue, they seem to rarely be equipped with missiles, but they do have them.

[Praeothmin]

While we don’t know the specific reason for why that is, it's rather simple to deal with the problem in versus debating though. When a ship is engaged in combat, we assume the ship accelerates like they have been shown to do in combat. And when making long linear trips, we assume they accelerate the way they do on long linear trips. In other words, we assume they behave the way they’ve been shown to behave on-screen.

An even easier explanation is this:
For long flights, they do not need to power weapons and shields, or thrusters, and have more then enough energy for huge accelerations.
In combat, though, they need maneuvering thrusters, shields and weapons, targetting scanners, thus having a lot less power to main engines and for acceleration...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Racing

I'd tend to agree with l33t here.
Death Gliders are very impressive, although there's a strong possibility that X-wings are even better.

Wraith Darts are not bad either, but I think they'd be flying as fast as TIEs.

Dog fighting

To me, X-wings are on the top. Although they may not have the best cornering out there, their turn when they entered the Death Star trench was good enough (even if Vipers can do much better.

Cylon Raiders have the most amazing manoeuvering I've ever seen.
Check the episode when Anders is Cyloned while piloting a fighter. The Cylon Raider is flying backwards... check the curve of their trajectory, it's crazy.
Since I can't remember Cylon Raiders using lateral jets, their maneuvering abilities come from the same form of drives that are present on Death Gliders for example. The two rocket engines provide main or additional boost.

Now, if we have to take it literally, the zig zag seen in ANH, the result of both TIE and X-wings swinging left and right, were impressive, although not very convincing movie wise.

Although I'm convinced that Raiders and Vipers use armour piercing rounds, I don't think they have what it takes to bring down an X-wing. Without missiles, they're no match imho.
Starfuries seem to have a good punch, but their maneuverability seems poor (aside from their 180° flips).
Death Gliders in combat have a miserable aim.

A F-302 has four missiles for typical armament, along its forward machine gun. Since I base all comparisons on the X-wing, imho the superior fighter here, the F-302 will rely on its missiles. The missiles will undoubtly destroy an X-wing, and it depends if the X-wing has missiles by defaults as well.
Besides, range, missile speed and cornering and eventual jamming tech will be important.

In terms of jamming tech, the Cylons are very strong here. Their anti-missile jamming ability has missiles veering off course like if they saw some sexy ladies a few klicks towards Orion.

Against missiles, Vipers Mk II have been seen to carry decoy canisters.

TIEs are interesting, but their lack of shields and disastrous profile if flanked will not help at all.

In special cases such as Viper vs. F-302, the nBSG craft would take it. The pilot has far more experience in space fight and a more agile craft in his hands.

In a free for all where missiles are allowed, since I can't find evidence that the default loadout of an X-wing includes anti-fighter missile, the ships that would remain after the missile onslaught would be the F-302, the Viper, Raider and perhaps the Starfury.

From there, the Fury is not agile enough, the Raider a tad too fiendish, so it boils down to Viper vs. F-302.

[Mr. Oragahn]

While we don’t know the specific reason for why that is, it's rather simple to deal with the problem in versus debating though. When a ship is engaged in combat, we assume the ship accelerates like they have been shown to do in combat. And when making long linear trips, we assume they accelerate the way they do on long linear trips. In other words, we assume they behave the way they’ve been shown to behave on-screen.

An even easier explanation is this:
For long flights, they do not need to power weapons and shields, or thrusters, and have more then enough energy for huge accelerations.
In combat, though, they need maneuvering thrusters, shields and weapons, targetting scanners, thus having a lot less power to main engines and for acceleration...

There's also the possibility that they crank up mass lightening for long range trips, but don't do it for combat and close maneuvering otherwise any small impact of glancing detonation would send them off course in such a way that they'd become easy target, since the pilot would have hard time to retake control of the ship before the pursuer would lock the laser cannons on it, because from the inside, the ship would be spinning dizzy, but from the outside, the ship would be drifting along a predictable route.
Assuming the increase of mass lightening cannot be ordered fast enough, say it takes several minutes, then you can see how the ships can't make crazy maneuvers in combat.

[Narsil]

I contend that in all cases, the fighter being flown by Wedge Antilles will win.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I contend that in all cases, the fighter being flown by Wedge Antilles will win.

Starbuck rapes him.

[Narsil]

And the resulting child of that union has enough combined character shields that enemy ships' weapons just backfire around him.