Could anybody ever write a Stargate ICS

[Mr. Oragahn]

Eh, my sentiments are with Corporal on this one.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say there, because if you would have read the whole thread you would have seen that what he said earlier came as a result of a misunderstanding of what I wanted when it comes to an Stargate ICS.

My point is that it seems rather awfully pedantic of a request (which I hold as being the crux of Corporal's posts, and still see it as such) not to mention that there doesn't seem to be quite the demand for an ICS given the limited fanbase. I don't think the SW ICS is exactly a NY Times best seller list maker, and SW has a fanbase of 100's of millions at least (including casual fans).

The merchandising of such a license with more obscure products, be they novels, games or else, has little to do with the talks in the New York Times.

There are enough Gaters around so that several types of games have or are being made, counting audio stories and many books, figurines and else.

An ICS type book doesn't aim at hitting more than a niche anyway. Once you do a product for a given target and don't try to eat more than needed, your product has far more chances to work.

Now, would an accurate tech book be made? Even more, one that would be quoted as being used on the production stage, I don't think so yet.
There's quite too much of an inconsistency on this, it's not Trek either, which had paid much more attention to its internal Bible (an aspect that repelled Ronald D Moore), and above all, there seems to be little higher man or woman of science to be concerned about Stargate's technical aspects.
And again, I don't see such a book making to the canon or semi-canon pantheon either.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Corporal already covered most of the points, but....

The merchandising of such a license with more obscure products, be they novels, games or else, has little to do with the talks in the New York Times.

It was an exaggerated comparison to make a point. Stargate may have millions of fans worldwide but Star Wars has hundreds of millions of fans worldwide. That said, how many of those fans actually buy the ICS? What percentage would that make? Assuming a similar percentage, how many Gaters would actually buy a Stargate ICS? Would it be enough to justify it?

[quoteThere are enough Gaters around so that several types of games have or are being made, counting audio stories and many books, figurines and else.[/quote]

o rly?

First of all I do not recall audio stories and many books and figurines being counted as "games." Audio books and figurines tend to be counted separately.

Secondly there were a number of games bandied about from cut-rate last-tier developers like "Joowood" (who has many games rated "mediocre" or worse at GameSpot) bounced around, but were ultimately canceled, including the MMORPG that was in development.

An ICS type book doesn't aim at hitting more than a niche anyway. Once you do a product for a given target and don't try to eat more than needed, your product has far more chances to work.

That's true, but if that niche is too small, it's just too small. There are certain fixed costs in publishing and a certain level of publication that must be met. For example, one of Ann Coulter's latest books moved 120,000 copies.

It was considered a dismal sales failure.

Now, would an accurate tech book be made? Even more, one that would be quoted as being used on the production stage, I don't think so yet.
There's quite too much of an inconsistency on this, it's not Trek either, which had paid much more attention to its internal Bible (an aspect that repelled Ronald D Moore), and above all, there seems to be little higher man or woman of science to be concerned about Stargate's technical aspects.
And again, I don't see such a book making to the canon or semi-canon pantheon either.

Yeah, that's another thing. Someone has to be interested in putting it together in the first place.


You know, if you really are that dedicated towards getting a Stargate ICS, this is what you should do:

- buy a copy of "The Writer's Market." You can find it at any bookstore (Borders, Barnes & Noble, Chapters, blah blah blah) for about $40. Yeah, it's expensive. Trust me I know quite well how expensive it is.

- look up a big publisher, preferably one with ties to MGM. You might get Simon & Schuster to do it.

- write them a damn convincing cover letter that you can make a Stargate ICS that can sell.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It was an exaggerated comparison to make a point. Stargate may have millions of fans worldwide but Star Wars has hundreds of millions of fans worldwide.

Do you have any evidence that the ICS is close to being a best seller of some sort to warrant some sort of awkward analogy related to NYT, instead of just (and also) being a success within a nerd niche of SW fans, right?

That said, how many of those fans actually buy the ICS? What percentage would that make? Assuming a similar percentage, how many Gaters would actually buy a Stargate ICS? Would it be enough to justify it?

Apparently, considering what has been published, yes.

There are enough Gaters around so that several types of games have or are being made, counting audio stories and many books, figurines and else.

o rly?

First of all I do not recall audio stories and many books and figurines being counted as "games." Audio books and figurines tend to be counted separately.

Mistake. Though RPG are games. There's also a CCG game.

Secondly there were a number of games bandied about from cut-rate last-tier developers like "Joowood" (who has many games rated "mediocre" or worse at GameSpot) bounced around, but were ultimately canceled, including the MMORPG that was in development.

See, this time it's my turn to be anal about "including". Joowood has nothing to do with the MMORPG.
Secondly, there has never been a relation between the quality of Stargate or Stargate's audience and the closure of the game. The Alliance game was actually well shaped, got many good returns for its first demo (including multiplayer), lots of efforts were put into the designs and decors, the four main actors of classic SG-1 had recorded countless lines of dialogue for it.
The reason why this game got cancelled is just one factor among many which can apply to any game, from the moment a publisher is not in agreement with the developer. Simply put, unless you have evidence that the Stargate's market size was the problem, your claim is incorrect.
Thirdly, IGN is certainly not the be all and end all of game ratings, and finally, the MMORPG is still in prod, but had issues, which MANY studios and publishers experience these days.
There have been other MMOs which got canned for several reasons.
Besides, SW Galaxy got made, but it turned out to be a great load of crap, which only late mods managed to correct main issues, but the damage was done. No surprise they're going with another pick (KOTOR), surfing on a sub-license which has proved succesful.
That said, SGW's characters went through a disastrous WoW filter, because WoW is the craze, so everything must be based on this game now.

An ICS type book doesn't aim at hitting more than a niche anyway. Once you do a product for a given target and don't try to eat more than needed, your product has far more chances to work.
There are certain fixed costs in publishing and a certain level of publication that must be met.

That's true, but if that niche is too small, it's just too small.

Which of course you don't know, and the existence of a series of RPG book being the equivalent of WEG's Star Wars guides and extra missions (although decanonized), plus a series of official magazines featuring approachable (albeit often inacurrate) technical data (there are double pages solely for the Ha'tak for example) and TUVG, the equivalent of a Visual Dictionary with very few bits of ICS in it, with a disc embedded in the front of the hardcover (if only that!), demonstrates that MGM is convinced there's an audience for this type of merchandising and efforts.
I'd even guess that the MGM Tech Journal section is a click-based probe to see how many people are interested in that type of fictional information.

For example, one of Ann Coulter's latest books moved 120,000 copies.
It was considered a dismal sales failure.

Apples and oranges. Coulter's books get large ad campaigns, and considering her profile and past best-selling books, 120K is indeed a failure.
This is totally irrelevant to the tech guides. Even Star Wars' ICS doesn't get that kind of spotlight, for obvious reasons! The budgets are certainly not identical, and that's the same for expected sales.

Now, would an accurate tech book be made? Even more, one that would be quoted as being used on the production stage, I don't think so yet.
There's quite too much of an inconsistency on this, it's not Trek either, which had paid much more attention to its internal Bible (an aspect that repelled Ronald D Moore), and above all, there seems to be little higher man or woman of science to be concerned about Stargate's technical aspects.
And again, I don't see such a book making to the canon or semi-canon pantheon either.

Yeah, that's another thing. Someone has to be interested in putting it together in the first place.

You know, if you really are that dedicated towards getting a Stargate ICS, this is what you should do:

- buy a copy of "The Writer's Market." You can find it at any bookstore (Borders, Barnes & Noble, Chapters, blah blah blah) for about $40. Yeah, it's expensive. Trust me I know quite well how expensive it is.

- look up a big publisher, preferably one with ties to MGM. You might get Simon & Schuster to do it.

- write them a damn convincing cover letter that you can make a Stargate ICS that can sell.

Not interested nor free enough to make one.

[PunkMaister]

I know it's basically official BS (Man does that sound stupid) but does anyone have a link to MGM's so called tech guide?

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/MGM_Tech_Journal

[Mr. Oragahn]

Here.

[PunkMaister]

Here.

Well if that Wikia is indeed run by MGM then they are indeed at least trying to see if there is a market for it. The schematics could use some work but compared to what we have which is next to nothing they are ok...

[ILikeDeathNote]

It was an exaggerated comparison to make a point. Stargate may have millions of fans worldwide but Star Wars has hundreds of millions of fans worldwide.

Do you have any evidence that the ICS is close to being a best seller of some sort to warrant some sort of awkward analogy related to NYT, instead of just (and also) being a success within a nerd niche of SW fans, right?

...I just don't know what to say at this point.

I was trying to make a point about the likely prospect of a Stargate ICS being profitable. I was using an analogy to demonstrate that the SW ICS, based on a fanbase of potentially hundreds of millions of people, is only able to achieve niche sales.

If I understand what you wrote correctly, not only have you completely missed the point of my analogy; in fact, not only have you come to the exact opposite conclusion of what my analogy is supposed to illustrate, but you want me to actually supply evidence to support the exact opposite of the point I was trying to make, and that now suddenly this thread is now about whether or not the Star Wars ICS has made mention on the New York Time's Best Seller List.

You know what, I just give up. Moving on....

Apparently, considering what has been published, yes.

What published? Novels/episode novelizations? Those tend to have wider appeal at least.

See, this time it's my turn to be anal about "including". Joowood has nothing to do with the MMORPG.

Ok. Where did I say they did?

Secondly, there has never been a relation between the quality of Stargate or Stargate's audience and the closure of the game.

Ok. Where did I say there was?

Though there is a relation between the perceived popularity of a franchise and what kind of developer/publisher develops/publishes it. This is what Electronic Arts, the largest game publisher in the world, snaps up game rights to popular franchises left and right.

The reason why this game got cancelled is just one factor among many which can apply to any game, from the moment a publisher is not in agreement with the developer. Simply put, unless you have evidence that the Stargate's market size was the problem, your claim is incorrect.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... story=6139

You're correct, JoWood canceled the initial engine build because they were disappointed with what they saw from developer Perception.

But we can infer a few things. JoWood has a reputation for cut-rate bargain bin game titles, based on the titles they have published. If the market for Stargate was there, a larger publisher like EA or UbiSoft would be easily able to outbid them. The fact that they hired a cut-rate developer to develop it (and even they were disappointed with the initial build) also says a lot of things.

Thirdly, IGN is certainly not the be all and end all of game ratings

I understand that. I also understand that I never referenced them in the first place.

Concerning GameSpot, who I did reference, well...let's see what GameSpot users have to say about their most recent game, Gothic 3:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic3f ... user-score

Or The Guild 2:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/the ... user-score

Or their latest Hardy Boys game (a franchise that has a huge video game market, I assure you....):

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/ha ... user-score

Keep in mind these are reviews by average consumers who have actually purchased the game, not from GameSpot's editorial or professional review staff.

, and finally, the MMORPG is still in prod, but had issues, which MANY studios and publishers experience these days.
There have been other MMOs which got canned for several reasons.

I'll give you that. I'm just pointing out that Stargate isn't exactly considered profitable ground for a video game franchise, regardless of how popular the franchise proper actually is.

Besides, SW Galaxy got made, but it turned out to be a great load of crap, which only late mods managed to correct main issues, but the damage was done. No surprise they're going with another pick (KOTOR), surfing on a sub-license which has proved succesful.
That said, SGW's characters went through a disastrous WoW filter, because WoW is the craze, so everything must be based on this game now.

Not really related to the debate at hand. Besides, it's more related to the incompetence of LucasFilm Licensing's own in-house development/publishing house, LucasArts (which really hasn't been the same since X-Wing Alliance, KOTOR and Empire At War excepting).

Which of course you don't know, and the existence of a series of RPG book being the equivalent of WEG's Star Wars guides and extra missions (although decanonized), plus a series of official magazines featuring approachable (albeit often inacurrate) technical data (there are double pages solely for the Ha'tak for example) and TUVG, the equivalent of a Visual Dictionary with very few bits of ICS in it, with a disc embedded in the front of the hardcover (if only that!), demonstrates that MGM is convinced there's an audience for this type of merchandising and efforts.
I'd even guess that the MGM Tech Journal section is a click-based probe to see how many people are interested in that type of fictional information.

Well then there you'll go. I'll gladly concede that there may be a market if MGM themselves feel that there is a market.

...but then again, you seem to be suggesting that a Stargate ICS, in effect, already exists. That kinda makes this whole thread pointless then, doesn't it?

Apples and oranges. Coulter's books get large ad campaigns, and considering her profile and past best-selling books, 120K is indeed a failure.
This is totally irrelevant to the tech guides. Even Star Wars' ICS doesn't get that kind of spotlight, for obvious reasons! The budgets are certainly not identical, and that's the same for expected sales.

Fine, I'll concede that much. Although Ann Coulter's fanbase is largely "in-built" just as with the SW or SG fanbase, and a lot of the promotion is simply "word-of-mouth" or simply, basically flashing the cover to let people know it's there (trust me, people who agree with Ann Coulter will almost just automatically read what she writes...which only further adds to the "puzzlement" of her latest book's flop - perhaps too little promotion?) so I think there is at least more of a valid comparison than you think. Not to mention, once again, a lot of the publishing costs are fixed regardless of how much promotion a book gets.

Not interested nor free enough to make one.

Of course the invitation is open to whoever thinks they can tackle it. I myself just don't know enough about Stargate to really make a good enough of an authority.

Of course, I would welcome the existence of a Stargate ICS. It's not like I'm debating this because I hate Stargate; I'm a casual fan, I just question if the market is really there. Publishing is arguably the most market-driven business ever.

[Mr. Oragahn]

...I just don't know what to say at this point.

I was trying to make a point about the likely prospect of a Stargate ICS being profitable. I was using an analogy to demonstrate that the SW ICS, based on a fanbase of potentially hundreds of millions of people, is only able to achieve niche sales.

Because it is aimed at a niche.

Apparently, considering what has been published, yes.

What published? Novels/episode novelizations? Those tend to have wider appeal at least.

I already listed the stuff in question.
There are also other books about Stargate which aren't exactly providing fictional material, btu which are more about a blend of the shows' production, thoughts on their themes and other bits of canonical facts.

See, this time it's my turn to be anal about "including". Joowood has nothing to do with the MMORPG.

Ok. Where did I say they did?

Playing games on someone who thought he was sounding smart telling me a book is not a video game.
Next time, cut the crap.

Secondly, there has never been a relation between the quality of Stargate or Stargate's audience and the closure of the game.

Ok. Where did I say there was?

The whole line of reasoning of yours is all about that, quality and numbers.

Though there is a relation between the perceived popularity of a franchise and what kind of developer/publisher develops/publishes it. This is what Electronic Arts, the largest game publisher in the world, snaps up game rights to popular franchises left and right.

Continuing with erroneous analogies, I'll remind you that videogamers are not a niche, really. It's a wide appeal form of entertainment.
Now, a technical guide about a given franchise, there we'd start talking.

The reason why this game got cancelled is just one factor among many which can apply to any game, from the moment a publisher is not in agreement with the developer. Simply put, unless you have evidence that the Stargate's market size was the problem, your claim is incorrect.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... story=6139

You're correct, JoWood canceled the initial engine build because they were disappointed with what they saw from developer Perception.

But we can infer a few things. JoWood has a reputation for cut-rate bargain bin game titles, based on the titles they have published. If the market for Stargate was there, a larger publisher like EA or UbiSoft would be easily able to outbid them.

You can't decide that just when you get out of bed. If Aliens vs. Predator has proved anything, dealing with a franchise owned by Fox has been a terrible affair for more than a decade. It's only recently that Fox has tried to remilk the franchise with two mediocre movies and new games.
Hell, there's even the orignal makers of the first AVP making another one.

The fact that they hired a cut-rate developer to develop it (and even they were disappointed with the initial build) also says a lot of things.

It only says MGM didn't want to spend much. Remember, though, that at this time, the show didn't have a five year spin-off, a second spin-off, plus two DVD movies and a third one in the works.
Moving to a MMO actually tells that they're both confident and aware of the revenues which can be grossed via a MMO.

Thirdly, IGN is certainly not the be all and end all of game ratings

I understand that. I also understand that I never referenced them in the first place.

Oh yes, sorry, Gamesplot, the place where even top rank reviewers get fired because they put "just above average" scores to games which are being advertised on the website.

Concerning GameSpot, who I did reference, well...let's see what GameSpot users have to say about their most recent game, Gothic 3:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic3f ... user-score

Most critics focus on the bugs galore. Even the last Alone in the Dark had bugs, yet the game had a large quality to it and a solid studio (Eden Games) behind it. Which is probably why they could afford working on the game, correcting the bugs and release a super patch with even added stuff to swallow the pill.

Or The Guild 2:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/the ... user-score

Not many reviews per se here.

Or their latest Hardy Boys game (a franchise that has a huge video game market, I assure you....):

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/ha ... user-score
Keep in mind these are reviews by average consumers who have actually purchased the game, not from GameSpot's editorial or professional review staff.

JoWood still exists, which they couldn't if their games were that terrible. I know I sound like I'm craving for excuses, but when you consider the absurd amount of studios that close their doors each year, the fact that these guys are still around means that their games get an audience. That's what matters in the end, there's money that gets in. They get their cash, they make another game.

Also, look what I said a bit earlier on. Stargate wasn't big enough as a franchise, and you got what you can expect from suitmen who know shit about games, deciding to milk it.
It's quite ironic that the arguments you present there are mostly relying on people's opinions, yet the demo JoWood presented was deemed solid.

, and finally, the MMORPG is still in prod, but had issues, which MANY studios and publishers experience these days.
There have been other MMOs which got canned for several reasons.

I'll give you that. I'm just pointing out that Stargate isn't exactly considered profitable ground for a video game franchise, regardless of how popular the franchise proper actually is.

But they're making a MMO about it. The most expensive type of video game to make.
It depicts a greater confidence than before, and obviously, it's only going to get better.
The sad thing about Alliance is that it was, aside from a RPG game, the best genre for this franchise.

Besides, SW Galaxy got made, but it turned out to be a great load of crap, which only late mods managed to correct main issues, but the damage was done. No surprise they're going with another pick (KOTOR), surfing on a sub-license which has proved succesful.
That said, SGW's characters went through a disastrous WoW filter, because WoW is the craze, so everything must be based on this game now.

Not really related to the debate at hand. Besides, it's more related to the incompetence of LucasFilm Licensing's own in-house development/publishing house, LucasArts (which really hasn't been the same since X-Wing Alliance, KOTOR and Empire At War excepting).

Because you think MGM and whatever branch that deals with merchandising is totally competent?
That would be too beautiful to be true.

Well then there you'll go. I'll gladly concede that there may be a market if MGM themselves feel that there is a market.
...but then again, you seem to be suggesting that a Stargate ICS, in effect, already exists. That kinda makes this whole thread pointless then, doesn't it?

I'm saying there are first steps, each time getting better.

Apples and oranges. Coulter's books get large ad campaigns, and considering her profile and past best-selling books, 120K is indeed a failure.
This is totally irrelevant to the tech guides. Even Star Wars' ICS doesn't get that kind of spotlight, for obvious reasons! The budgets are certainly not identical, and that's the same for expected sales.

Fine, I'll concede that much. Although Ann Coulter's fanbase is largely "in-built" just as with the SW or SG fanbase, and a lot of the promotion is simply "word-of-mouth" or simply, basically flashing the cover to let people know it's there (trust me, people who agree with Ann Coulter will almost just automatically read what she writes...which only further adds to the "puzzlement" of her latest book's flop - perhaps too little promotion?) so I think there is at least more of a valid comparison than you think. Not to mention, once again, a lot of the publishing costs are fixed regardless of how much promotion a book gets.

Oh come on. Best-sellers. There's just a limit to how far you can push the in-built argument. :)

In the end, as I said regarding canon, LucasFilm Ltd. is one of the rare houses to handle its IP in such a way to have a coherency policy for a whole deal of its extra fictions.
The SG staff ignoes SG books pretty much like Lucas used to ignore the EU to a large extent, although he's become quite lazy and now picks what pleases him instead, and alters some bits to piss EU fans more.
The only way a SG technical guide could get a minimal level of recognition was if it got cited in prof like the Okudas were.

Finally, these days, I cannot see a true TM being made if there's not a least one solid technical website dedicated to this topic.
Some older franchises like ALIEN, and perhaps Dr. Who, had their TM, but we're speaking of hugely succesful franchises, and frankly, I'm surprised by the quality of ALIEN's U.S.Marines TM.

Is there just one person around on internet, or a writer, who has shown any real dedication to the in-universe technical side of SG's canon? Not really AFAIK.
And considering the errors in official sources, there's obviously a lack of oversight and accuracy in that department. Which is unfortunate when you consider the quality of the ICS-like drawings in TUVG and in MGM TJ tabs.
Ok, We see typos everyday. Even Dan Simmons' books have quite a lot of them. But TUVG has a couple of unnerving ones, like Anubis's or Osiris's.
As for MGM's official website, they don't even know how to spell villain, and that thing was still up one month ago.

[ILikeDeathNote]

...I just don't know what to say at this point.

I was trying to make a point about the likely prospect of a Stargate ICS being profitable. I was using an analogy to demonstrate that the SW ICS, based on a fanbase of potentially hundreds of millions of people, is only able to achieve niche sales.

Because it is aimed at a niche.

Ok.

And that is different from what I've been saying HOW?!

See, this time it's my turn to be anal about "including". Joowood has nothing to do with the MMORPG.

Ok. Where did I say they did?

Playing games on someone who thought he was sounding smart telling me a book is not a video game.
Next time, cut the crap.

You lumped books and video games together in what I can only guess to be an attempt to show that the market for Stargate merchandise is bigger than what may otherwise be suggested, not to mention making several errors in regards to statements I made. What else am I supposed to assume, other than intellectual dishonesty or a simple flat-out failure to understand the words I've been typing?

Secondly, there has never been a relation between the quality of Stargate or Stargate's audience and the closure of the game.

Ok. Where did I say there was?

The whole line of reasoning of yours is all about that, quality and numbers.

True. But not about the quality of the series itself, or the quality of its fanbase. I think Lost is complete garbage, yet it's insanely popular, popular enough to - yes - have video games licensed on it.

Then again, perhaps for the benefit of the doubt, you meant quantity.

Though there is a relation between the perceived popularity of a franchise and what kind of developer/publisher develops/publishes it. This is what Electronic Arts, the largest game publisher in the world, snaps up game rights to popular franchises left and right.

Continuing with erroneous analogies, I'll remind you that videogamers are not a niche, really. It's a wide appeal form of entertainment.
Now, a technical guide about a given franchise, there we'd start talking.

The more popular a franchise is, the larger the niche market will be. The whole point was that I was trying to demonstrate that market data suggests that the niche audience of a Stargate ICS would be small, because the overall audience of Stargate, relatively speaking, is smaller than Star Wars, which in turn has a small niche market for the Star Wars ICS. Therefore, logic, let me repeat that, logic says that, if the overall audience of Stargate is smaller, than niche markets within that audience will also be smaller, likely small enough to not justify an ICS!

The reason why this game got cancelled is just one factor among many which can apply to any game, from the moment a publisher is not in agreement with the developer. Simply put, unless you have evidence that the Stargate's market size was the problem, your claim is incorrect.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... story=6139

You're correct, JoWood canceled the initial engine build because they were disappointed with what they saw from developer Perception.

But we can infer a few things. JoWood has a reputation for cut-rate bargain bin game titles, based on the titles they have published. If the market for Stargate was there, a larger publisher like EA or UbiSoft would be easily able to outbid them.

You can't decide that just when you get out of bed.

It's still, generally speaking, a measure to determine the likely popularity of a franchise. The more popular a franchise is, the more likely a franchise owner is going to give the property to a big-buck publisher who at least will know how to manage the game well enough to properly market and sell it (though not necessarily to make it good - EA and UbiSoft churn out crap, but it still sells).

The fact that they hired a cut-rate developer to develop it (and even they were disappointed with the initial build) also says a lot of things.

It only says MGM didn't want to spend much. Remember, though, that at this time, the show didn't have a five year spin-off, a second spin-off, plus two DVD movies and a third one in the works.
Moving to a MMO actually tells that they're both confident and aware of the revenues which can be grossed via a MMO.

You have a point there at least.

Thirdly, IGN is certainly not the be all and end all of game ratings

I understand that. I also understand that I never referenced them in the first place.

Oh yes, sorry, Gamesplot, the place where even top rank reviewers get fired because they put "just above average" scores to games which are being advertised on the website.

So of course that completely invalidates GameSpot as a method of determining the quality of a video game, right? That even goes for the customer reviews that I posted, right?

When it comes to smaller publishers who don't have big advertising bucks, GameSpot tends to be reliable enough. JoWood doesn't have the bucks or the clout to pull another Gerstmann.

Concerning GameSpot, who I did reference, well...let's see what GameSpot users have to say about their most recent game, Gothic 3:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic3f ... user-score

Most critics focus on the bugs galore. Even the last Alone in the Dark had bugs, yet the game had a large quality to it and a solid studio (Eden Games) behind it. Which is probably why they could afford working on the game, correcting the bugs and release a super patch with even added stuff to swallow the pill.

*shrugs* admittedly a lot of people are pulling off that kind of crap nowadays.

Or The Guild 2:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/the ... user-score

Not many reviews per se here.

Bother to look at the pie chart much? It's a graphical representation of the input of nearly 70 users, which I consider a good enough data pool for this game.

Or their latest Hardy Boys game (a franchise that has a huge video game market, I assure you....):

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/ha ... user-score
Keep in mind these are reviews by average consumers who have actually purchased the game, not from GameSpot's editorial or professional review staff.

JoWood still exists, which they couldn't if their games were that terrible. I know I sound like I'm craving for excuses, but when you consider the absurd amount of studios that close their doors each year, the fact that these guys are still around means that their games get an audience. That's what matters in the end, there's money that gets in. They get their cash, they make another game.

They probably are still around because their games are dirt-cheap to make, therefore they don't have to move a lot of product in order to see a return of investment. That's the general concept regarding game mills.

Also, look what I said a bit earlier on. Stargate wasn't big enough as a franchise, and you got what you can expect from suitmen who know shit about games, deciding to milk it.
It's quite ironic that the arguments you present there are mostly relying on people's opinions

It's the only data I have to go on. We are, after all, trying to determine the popularity of a series. What else is popularity but a collective opinion?

, yet the demo JoWood presented was deemed solid.

Yet JoWood pulled the plug based on quality control.

, and finally, the MMORPG is still in prod, but had issues, which MANY studios and publishers experience these days.
There have been other MMOs which got canned for several reasons.

I'll give you that. I'm just pointing out that Stargate isn't exactly considered profitable ground for a video game franchise, regardless of how popular the franchise proper actually is.

But they're making a MMO about it. The most expensive type of video game to make.
It depicts a greater confidence than before, and obviously, it's only going to get better.
The sad thing about Alliance is that it was, aside from a RPG game, the best genre for this franchise.

I'll give you that at least. Once again I'm not trying to argue that "Stargate sucks" or "Nobody likes Stargate;" hell I'm a fan myself.

In fact, I better concede something here right now - I need to admit, what I've mostly just been arguing are the massive leaps in logic you've been using throughout this topic, arguably the most egregious of which is somehow believing that I've been trying to use an analogy in a literal sense to argue precisely the opposite of what the analogy was trying to illustrate in the first place.

Not really related to the debate at hand. Besides, it's more related to the incompetence of LucasFilm Licensing's own in-house development/publishing house, LucasArts (which really hasn't been the same since X-Wing Alliance, KOTOR and Empire At War excepting).

Because you think MGM and whatever branch that deals with merchandising is totally competent?
That would be too beautiful to be true.

Anecdotal. But also true.

Well then there you'll go. I'll gladly concede that there may be a market if MGM themselves feel that there is a market.
...but then again, you seem to be suggesting that a Stargate ICS, in effect, already exists. That kinda makes this whole thread pointless then, doesn't it?

I'm saying there are first steps, each time getting better.

Ok then.

Fine, I'll concede that much. Although Ann Coulter's fanbase is largely "in-built" just as with the SW or SG fanbase, and a lot of the promotion is simply "word-of-mouth" or simply, basically flashing the cover to let people know it's there (trust me, people who agree with Ann Coulter will almost just automatically read what she writes...which only further adds to the "puzzlement" of her latest book's flop - perhaps too little promotion?) so I think there is at least more of a valid comparison than you think. Not to mention, once again, a lot of the publishing costs are fixed regardless of how much promotion a book gets.

Oh come on. Best-sellers. There's just a limit to how far you can push the in-built argument. :)

True, I'll have to concede that one too.

In the end, as I said regarding canon, LucasFilm Ltd. is one of the rare houses to handle its IP in such a way to have a coherency policy for a whole deal of its extra fictions.
The SG staff ignoes SG books pretty much like Lucas used to ignore the EU to a large extent, although he's become quite lazy and now picks what pleases him instead, and alters some bits to piss EU fans more.
The only way a SG technical guide could get a minimal level of recognition was if it got cited in prof like the Okudas were.

True.

Finally, these days, I cannot see a true TM being made if there's not a least one solid technical website dedicated to this topic.
Some older franchises like ALIEN, and perhaps Dr. Who, had their TM, but we're speaking of hugely succesful franchises, and frankly, I'm surprised by the quality of ALIEN's U.S.Marines TM.

True. Hell, that's pretty much the crux of my whole damn argument right there from the very beginning.

Is there just one person around on internet, or a writer, who has shown any real dedication to the in-universe technical side of SG's canon? Not really AFAIK.

That honestly surprises me. I've said that the fanbase was smaller than Star Wars, not that it was small period, or that it was not dedicated.

I am not familiar with the community of either SDN or SBC beyond what is said here, so this is just a guess, but I'm willing to bet that there are dedicated fans of Stargate in at least one of those communities (I would guess towards SBC just because it's not as Wars-focused as SDN) who would be qualified to make such a site.

And considering the errors in official sources, there's obviously a lack of oversight and accuracy in that department. Which is unfortunate when you consider the quality of the ICS-like drawings in TUVG and in MGM TJ tabs.

Are you referring to the official sources that would be used in a SG ICS, or ICS's in general? I recall the pre-Saxton era ICSs to be chock full of errors or apathy for the source material.

Hell, I've seen errors and apathy for the source material for the other ICS books. The vast majority of which concern real, easily researched things.

Ok, We see typos everyday. Even Dan Simmons' books have quite a lot of them. But TUVG has a couple of unnerving ones, like Anubis's or Osiris's.
As for MGM's official website, they don't even know how to spell villain, and that thing was still up one month ago.

That's something the writer of this theoretical ICS will have to contend with. I say, if there isn't a single fan willing to do the ICS himself, then the fanbase hasn't really demonstrated anything to be deserving of an ICS in the first place. The willingness to do an ICS at least proves a true interest in the information it would contain, other than as yet another reference for fodder in a Vs. debate.

[Tyralak]

I do not care if the numbers are big or small just as long as the numbers are official and seen as canon by MGM.

Er...what would be the point of having something that does not match up with the show?

Ask Saxton.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Er...what would be the point of having something that does not match up with the show?

Ask Saxton.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, let's get back to the core thing and tone it down.

There's been some attempts. I remember a very few obscure examples, trying to list some specs. There were not providing essays per se.

Then there was Alyeska, Chris O and someone else working on SG Tech Center.

I remember a guy, Lord $okar, mostly seen at the old Gaters.net, who said he was working on something similar, but I don't think it took off.
He seemed to have a solid enough science background in astrophysics.
talking about Gaters.net, you'll have to look for archives. It's a low and rebooted board, but it used to have a fair amount of knowledgeable people in sciences, astronomy and physics.

The trouble with SG is that many times, I've seen the science guys come to a halt and strongly reject certain aspects of the show for its impossibility, trying to shift the facts of SG with facts of real world science, and that's just not the way it works. A great flexibility, grounded in both full canon and modern physics, needs to be harnessed if you really want a fair and well thought assembly of observations, theories and substantiated conclusions.

Then you have wikis. Wikipedia, and then two SG wikis, which are recollections of facts, one being complete enough, although lacking clarity and elegance, and the other one which takes material from non canon sources as well, which clearly does not help.
For example, Alderaac insisted that Apep and Apophis were two different Lords, while it's absolutely clear that they were one and the same, if only for the place Apophis in the late mythology and how he has always been presented as Ra/Re's nemesis.
It's a fact, both in the show and in reality.
For Apep, demon serpent and eternal enemy of Ra, it's easy, in show, to assert that he adopted the Greek version of his name, for a reason or another, as it's evidenced by the structures and architectural styles found on Chulak, from the temple, palace to some ruins near the stargate.

Here's the name of the magazines I talked about. They are called the Stargate SG-1 DVD Collections. You can find the site here. They have a DVD each.

There's obviously a lot of money spent on these, but there's not always the necessary accurate technical background.

Oh, a detail I completely missed. TUVG is published by DK Editions. This explains the style.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Then there was Alyeska, Chris O and someone else working on SG Tech Center.

Alyeska, at least, I have a passing familiarity with from his previous interactions on this forum. Are there any other Stargate authorities who visit this forum? I would be highly interested to see this website, provided it's still up.

I remember a guy, Lord $okar, mostly seen at the old Gaters.net, who said he was working on something similar, but I don't think it took off.
He seemed to have a solid enough science background in astrophysics.
talking about Gaters.net, you'll have to look for archives. It's a low and rebooted board, but it used to have a fair amount of knowledgeable people in sciences, astronomy and physics.

I would also be highly interested if Lord $okar has made any progress at all, shared any of his findings or conclusions or otherwise published them, and if the aforementioned site made by Alyeska builds upon this data. It would be a shame to see his efforts not come to fruition; a SWTC-like website for SG would be interesting.

The trouble with SG is that many times, I've seen the science guys come to a halt and strongly reject certain aspects of the show for its impossibility, trying to shift the facts of SG with facts of real world science, and that's just not the way it works.

But that's how the SWTC works.



Now that I got that out of my system, that shows to me a personal weakness of those science guys more than anything else; they want the data to conform to what they want, rather than conform to the data as it is presented to them. This is precisely the opposite of what makes a good scientist, and is related to my rant about Warsies doing precisely this to Star Wars, including the SWTC.

A great flexibility, grounded in both full canon and modern physics, needs to be harnessed if you really want a fair and well thought assembly of observations, theories and substantiated conclusions.

Well, yeah.

There's obviously a lot of money spent on these, but there's not always the necessary accurate technical background.

Oh, a detail I completely missed. TUVG is published by DK Editions. This explains the style.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Alyeska, at least, I have a passing familiarity with from his previous interactions on this forum. Are there any other Stargate authorities who visit this forum? I would be highly interested to see this website, provided it's still up.

It isn't anymore.

I would also be highly interested if Lord $okar has made any progress at all, shared any of his findings or conclusions or otherwise published them, and if the aforementioned site made by Alyeska builds upon this data. It would be a shame to see his efforts not come to fruition; a SWTC-like website for SG would be interesting.

No news either. I don't think he was aiming for something as complete as SWTC, even if one would say this is not something you decide right from the beginning, but according to the talks I had with him, he counted on having a couple of articles.

The trouble with SG is that many times, I've seen the science guys come to a halt and strongly reject certain aspects of the show for its impossibility, trying to shift the facts of SG with facts of real world science, and that's just not the way it works.

But that's how the SWTC works.

Now that I got that out of my system, that shows to me a personal weakness of those science guys more than anything else; they want the data to conform to what they want, rather than conform to the data as it is presented to them. This is precisely the opposite of what makes a good scientist, and is related to my rant about Warsies doing precisely this to Star Wars, including the SWTC.

Actually, SWTC would be quite good. The reason it fails on some points is simple: wank and massive cherry picking.
Wong has generally been cited as more of the type I described, and that apparently was a source of strong disagreement, possibly more, between him and Robert Brown. Still, Wong also fails for the simple utter pro SW bias and thirst for inflation as well.
No matter how you call it, that's nothing more than an agenda --oh the big word-- for big phalic numbers.

You could probably pick several people from all the places I cited and get them working, slowly, on a sort of essay-driven Stargate website. Obviously, a wiki would actually be a good way to deposit, on a given page for a given topic, the equivalent of KISS type arguments.
So for example, on the capacity of symbiotes to increase host health, strength and lifespan, you'd have several members present their short enough arguments on the same page, with a few chapters each. Further discussion would probably be carried out on an associated forum (the discussion system of wikis is too limited and awkward).

Pretty much like SFJN, but solely centred on Stargate, with the wiki, and possibly a blog, being the front page.
Eventually, the wiki would also include more typical wookieepedia-like Data Files, which would be the resulting agreement of members about the specs of a given location, species, technology, culture, society or else.