"You ride in two hundred and fifty tons of precision aligned diamond composite armor molecularly welded to a ceramic ablative matrix all under an impenetrable shield flickering 110 times per second. Your weapons include a 250 mm hyper velocity gauss cannon, two 180 gigawatt lasers, two SMLM auto locking multi-warhead missiles, a vulcan IV antimissile system and a host of other equally deadly weapons. Your vehicle is the ultimate product of over four thousand years of armored warfare.
Your Combat Life Expectancy is just under two minutes."
I can not believe I forgot all about the TOG when I did my comparison. ><
Alright, for those of you oldtimers (or people like me who had parents in the biz) who remember just what the hell the Terran Overlord Government is, how do you think that distopian future would fair against the empire, or would they even bother? The Overlords may be greedy but they are not stupid, might the Empire be a better ally then enemy?
Terran Overlord Government vs. The Empire
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Dabat
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Dabat
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- Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:25 am
I meant to add this expansion on just what the Terran Overlord Government was a few days ago, but, long story short, my hand got bitten by a dog.
To start, there are several strong parallels between the Terran Overlord Government and the Galatic Empire, because originally they were supposed to be one and the same. In the early eighties, when the Star Wars RPG license was still up for grabs, FASA produced a prototype game for star fighter combat as a 'proof of concept' to hopefully woo the license. Unfortunately for them the license went to West End Games. Rather then ditch a fully formed game, FASA instead altered the background and released it under the name 'Interceptor', in which pilots of the Orion Arm Commonwealth attempt to slow the advances of the much larger and much more powerful Terran Overlord Government.
In remaking the background, the people at FASA crunched some numbers and realized just how big a galaxy spanning empire constantly at war would have to be. It has been stated that roughly 1 in 50-70 stars in our galaxy is home to a major colony, with roughly one in ten housing a minor colony of some form.
Stats for the T.O.G. are, roughly, as follows:
-Number of major systems: 2.4 billion (aprox)
-Number of major Commonwealth systems: 50-100 million
-Population per major system: 700+ million (According to the Shannedam County sourcebook, rarely a 'major' system will have a population as low as five million, but many more have their population listed in the billions, 700 million is roughly low-average)
-Number of capable warships: 40 billion+ (each system is required to fund two squadrons of warships, and are encouraged to build more and donate them to the Caesar's fleet. Around half the member systems donate a squadron, which average 6-8 warships of varying size)
-Number of capable Commonwealth warships: 500 million-1 billion.
-Warship size: 450 meters (the smallest cannon destroyer) 3 km+ (the largest supercarriers and battleships)
-Size of the military: Effing huge. (According to the Shannedam County sourcebook, most worlds have around two combat Legions and ten militia Legions, and a Legion is a formation around the size of a modern Corps, however, it is also stated that many militia Legions are only around 30-40% the strength of a combat Legion, on top of that a combat Legion can have anywhere between 20,000 and 75,000 personel, depending on just what kind of Legion it is. Assuming a size of 45,000 for an average legion, this gives us a range of about 250,000-270,000 per major world multiply that by 2.4 billion major systems, that gives us a fighting force of roughly 600-700 trillion ground troops, not including Legions raised and sent to other worlds, the numbers of which are not mentioned. (according to fluff, roughly 20% of major systems have more then one major world, and around 2% have three or more major worlds, but I can't find that so i'm ignoring it for these calculations))
-Size of the Commonwealth military: 900 billion-3 trillion (On average, the worlds of the Commonwealth are much less militerized then their counterparts in the T.O.G.)
-Warfare: Despite it's total firepower, when taking a world from it's enemies it is rare that the T.O.G. sends more then two squadrons of Warships and more then a few combat Legions. Nor is it common to see one of it's enemies world's defended by more then that number. Generations of devastating warfare have lead to a gentleman's agreement of sorts; an unspoken understanding of 'we won't attack with more then X, if you do not defend with more then Y.' While this means that every world the T.O.G. takes from the Commonwealth (the only large military force left in our galaxy the T.O.G. has yet to force into submission) will be a difficult fight, it insures that a planet's infrastructure, and just as importantly, it's population, remain intact.
-Brief history: Not to long ago the galaxy was under the dominion of two races, the KessRith and the Ssora, they swept in on the heals a a major plague which affected the galaxy's dominant races, Humans and Naram, but not themselves. Between them they carved up the galaxy, enslaving all other sentient races they found. That rule ended around 300 years ago when humanity, armed with new technology and a sabatoge/espionage network that ran rings around the KessRith and the Ssora (and nurcing a fifteen hundred year grudge) staged a galaxy wide revolt, and over the course of 35 years, free most of the galaxy from KessRith and Ssora dominion, founding the Terran Republic in it's wake.
However, all was not well, in their haste to free their peoples from enslavement, the Terran Republic cut several devil's bargens with persons who desired only wealth and political power. Over the last several centuries those people corrupted the purpose of the Terran Republic. Changing it from a benign dictatorship to the brutal and repressive (and expantionist) Terran Overlord Government.
There is some basic information about the T.O.G., now how do you guys think it would react to the Empire? :)
To start, there are several strong parallels between the Terran Overlord Government and the Galatic Empire, because originally they were supposed to be one and the same. In the early eighties, when the Star Wars RPG license was still up for grabs, FASA produced a prototype game for star fighter combat as a 'proof of concept' to hopefully woo the license. Unfortunately for them the license went to West End Games. Rather then ditch a fully formed game, FASA instead altered the background and released it under the name 'Interceptor', in which pilots of the Orion Arm Commonwealth attempt to slow the advances of the much larger and much more powerful Terran Overlord Government.
In remaking the background, the people at FASA crunched some numbers and realized just how big a galaxy spanning empire constantly at war would have to be. It has been stated that roughly 1 in 50-70 stars in our galaxy is home to a major colony, with roughly one in ten housing a minor colony of some form.
Stats for the T.O.G. are, roughly, as follows:
-Number of major systems: 2.4 billion (aprox)
-Number of major Commonwealth systems: 50-100 million
-Population per major system: 700+ million (According to the Shannedam County sourcebook, rarely a 'major' system will have a population as low as five million, but many more have their population listed in the billions, 700 million is roughly low-average)
-Number of capable warships: 40 billion+ (each system is required to fund two squadrons of warships, and are encouraged to build more and donate them to the Caesar's fleet. Around half the member systems donate a squadron, which average 6-8 warships of varying size)
-Number of capable Commonwealth warships: 500 million-1 billion.
-Warship size: 450 meters (the smallest cannon destroyer) 3 km+ (the largest supercarriers and battleships)
-Size of the military: Effing huge. (According to the Shannedam County sourcebook, most worlds have around two combat Legions and ten militia Legions, and a Legion is a formation around the size of a modern Corps, however, it is also stated that many militia Legions are only around 30-40% the strength of a combat Legion, on top of that a combat Legion can have anywhere between 20,000 and 75,000 personel, depending on just what kind of Legion it is. Assuming a size of 45,000 for an average legion, this gives us a range of about 250,000-270,000 per major world multiply that by 2.4 billion major systems, that gives us a fighting force of roughly 600-700 trillion ground troops, not including Legions raised and sent to other worlds, the numbers of which are not mentioned. (according to fluff, roughly 20% of major systems have more then one major world, and around 2% have three or more major worlds, but I can't find that so i'm ignoring it for these calculations))
-Size of the Commonwealth military: 900 billion-3 trillion (On average, the worlds of the Commonwealth are much less militerized then their counterparts in the T.O.G.)
-Warfare: Despite it's total firepower, when taking a world from it's enemies it is rare that the T.O.G. sends more then two squadrons of Warships and more then a few combat Legions. Nor is it common to see one of it's enemies world's defended by more then that number. Generations of devastating warfare have lead to a gentleman's agreement of sorts; an unspoken understanding of 'we won't attack with more then X, if you do not defend with more then Y.' While this means that every world the T.O.G. takes from the Commonwealth (the only large military force left in our galaxy the T.O.G. has yet to force into submission) will be a difficult fight, it insures that a planet's infrastructure, and just as importantly, it's population, remain intact.
-Brief history: Not to long ago the galaxy was under the dominion of two races, the KessRith and the Ssora, they swept in on the heals a a major plague which affected the galaxy's dominant races, Humans and Naram, but not themselves. Between them they carved up the galaxy, enslaving all other sentient races they found. That rule ended around 300 years ago when humanity, armed with new technology and a sabatoge/espionage network that ran rings around the KessRith and the Ssora (and nurcing a fifteen hundred year grudge) staged a galaxy wide revolt, and over the course of 35 years, free most of the galaxy from KessRith and Ssora dominion, founding the Terran Republic in it's wake.
However, all was not well, in their haste to free their peoples from enslavement, the Terran Republic cut several devil's bargens with persons who desired only wealth and political power. Over the last several centuries those people corrupted the purpose of the Terran Republic. Changing it from a benign dictatorship to the brutal and repressive (and expantionist) Terran Overlord Government.
There is some basic information about the T.O.G., now how do you guys think it would react to the Empire? :)
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Flectarn
- Bridge Officer
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It takes the empire... easily.
even the highest end numbers for the GE don't come close to that. Their tendency to go about offensives with smallish forces might hurt them initially, depending on what kind of firepower disparity there is, but I'm sure they'd adapt
even the highest end numbers for the GE don't come close to that. Their tendency to go about offensives with smallish forces might hurt them initially, depending on what kind of firepower disparity there is, but I'm sure they'd adapt
Last edited by Flectarn on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dabat
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In truth, I don't think the TOG uses a heavy energy weapon that can match the firepower of the heavier turbolasers (this is energy weapons mind you). but they make up for it with range and numbers of guns, as even a lowly destroyer will often have a hundred tubes or more.
A place where the T.O.G. (or the commonwealth for that matter) will have a great advantage is on the ground. Heavy armed and armored gravity propelled tanks and other armored fighting vehicles represent the backbone of their Legions. There craft combine all of the best aspects of Main Battle Tanks, Attack Helicopters and Ground Attack Jets, they are fast, manuverable, and totally unhindered by any terrain or obstacle. On top of all that, they are heavily shielded, the shield they use is nearly impenatrable while it is on, however, the power draw increases geometrically the longer the reality warping field remains in effect, leading the tanks to flick them on and off rapidly, most tanks flickering them between 40 and 110 times a second. This means that the majority of attacks that would have struck the tank end up splashing off the shield instead... Buuut not all of them, which is the reason the armor is still so heavy in the T.O.G. reality.
Another interesting effect of the shield is how it interacts with physical matter, the heavier the mass striking the shield, the less the shield effects it. While the moving mass is held frozen and rapidly loosing momentum due to interaction with the field while the shield is on, but as soon as the shield flicks off the mass continues on it's path. Meaning the shield is far less effective against solid matter then it is against energy weapons.
Weapons seen on a battlefield In TOG Space or the Commonwealth are
Lasers: Despite technology advances giving weapons much more powerful then simple lasers, focused light and EM energy is still one of the simplest weapons to care for, as well as one of the best power to damage ratios in terms of penatrating deep within the target. Infantry weapons range from the high Kilo to the low Megawatts range. Vehicles range from the mid Mega to the low Gigawatts range, while capitol weapons range into the Terawatts.
Mass Drivers: From rapid fire .3mm anti missile defense systems to the 25-250 mm hyper velocity gauss cannons on IFVs and MBTs , to the 750,000 ton spine mounted 'Crowbars' on the largest battleships. Wahtever their form, gravitic, magnetic, ever the rare few hand held chemical explosion driven, mass drivers are just as common on the battlefield and in the air as are lasers.
Plasma and Excited Electron Projecters: Weapons that project either bolts of plasma or streams of electrons excited to a higher state of mater are rarely used in atmosphere due to rapid dispersion of the projectiles, but are quite common on interceptors and corvettes who far more often fight in vacuum. While these weapons are quite damaging, the highly excited state the projectiles exist in rapidly degrades and limits their range to the tens of kilometers, making them ill suited for capitol ship combat.
Excited Neutron Weapons: Normally a neutron, lacking a charge, could only inflict damage based on it's almost negligible mass. However TOG and CW scientists long ago figured out how to alter the state of a neutron for a temporary period, causing it to give off tremendous amounts of energy as it's natural state reasserts itself. Also, however, due to it's inherent unstablility, it lacks range. So despite it's great damage it is rarely used on capitol ships.
Missiles: Good old fashioned self guided physical missiles are still in use. From simple High Explosive/Armor Piercing warheads to SMLM multi-warhead missiles to Dead Fire Missiles, which release a cloud of dense 'shot' right before it impacts, to the fusion warheads of HELL and THOR anti-capitol ship warheads.
Armor and Structure: The two best ways to describe military construction in the TOG reality can best be summed up in two phrases. 'Make it tough' and 'Redundent backups'. Shielding only goes so far and advances in targeting make speed useless as a defense. Meter thick armor plating made of meterial several orders of magnitude tougher then hardened steel can be blasted to nothingness in just a few shots. Designers know their vehicles are going to take damage, so their design philosophy is focused on not only allowing their craft to take that damage, but to remain functional and still keep it's crew safe after taking that damage. For example, in cannon, a TOG battleship was tricked into accepting a shuttle laden with nuclear explosives into it's internal bay. When the warhead was detonated the battleship, the Ave Caesar, though crippled by the blast, lost none of it's offensive capability and still was able to force the Commonwealth fleet into retreat. This was expected by the Naram fleet, and the internal blast by a nuclear warhead was not intended to destroy the Battleship, it was mearly intended to damage and confuse it's command long enough to allow their escape.
A place where the T.O.G. (or the commonwealth for that matter) will have a great advantage is on the ground. Heavy armed and armored gravity propelled tanks and other armored fighting vehicles represent the backbone of their Legions. There craft combine all of the best aspects of Main Battle Tanks, Attack Helicopters and Ground Attack Jets, they are fast, manuverable, and totally unhindered by any terrain or obstacle. On top of all that, they are heavily shielded, the shield they use is nearly impenatrable while it is on, however, the power draw increases geometrically the longer the reality warping field remains in effect, leading the tanks to flick them on and off rapidly, most tanks flickering them between 40 and 110 times a second. This means that the majority of attacks that would have struck the tank end up splashing off the shield instead... Buuut not all of them, which is the reason the armor is still so heavy in the T.O.G. reality.
Another interesting effect of the shield is how it interacts with physical matter, the heavier the mass striking the shield, the less the shield effects it. While the moving mass is held frozen and rapidly loosing momentum due to interaction with the field while the shield is on, but as soon as the shield flicks off the mass continues on it's path. Meaning the shield is far less effective against solid matter then it is against energy weapons.
Weapons seen on a battlefield In TOG Space or the Commonwealth are
Lasers: Despite technology advances giving weapons much more powerful then simple lasers, focused light and EM energy is still one of the simplest weapons to care for, as well as one of the best power to damage ratios in terms of penatrating deep within the target. Infantry weapons range from the high Kilo to the low Megawatts range. Vehicles range from the mid Mega to the low Gigawatts range, while capitol weapons range into the Terawatts.
Mass Drivers: From rapid fire .3mm anti missile defense systems to the 25-250 mm hyper velocity gauss cannons on IFVs and MBTs , to the 750,000 ton spine mounted 'Crowbars' on the largest battleships. Wahtever their form, gravitic, magnetic, ever the rare few hand held chemical explosion driven, mass drivers are just as common on the battlefield and in the air as are lasers.
Plasma and Excited Electron Projecters: Weapons that project either bolts of plasma or streams of electrons excited to a higher state of mater are rarely used in atmosphere due to rapid dispersion of the projectiles, but are quite common on interceptors and corvettes who far more often fight in vacuum. While these weapons are quite damaging, the highly excited state the projectiles exist in rapidly degrades and limits their range to the tens of kilometers, making them ill suited for capitol ship combat.
Excited Neutron Weapons: Normally a neutron, lacking a charge, could only inflict damage based on it's almost negligible mass. However TOG and CW scientists long ago figured out how to alter the state of a neutron for a temporary period, causing it to give off tremendous amounts of energy as it's natural state reasserts itself. Also, however, due to it's inherent unstablility, it lacks range. So despite it's great damage it is rarely used on capitol ships.
Missiles: Good old fashioned self guided physical missiles are still in use. From simple High Explosive/Armor Piercing warheads to SMLM multi-warhead missiles to Dead Fire Missiles, which release a cloud of dense 'shot' right before it impacts, to the fusion warheads of HELL and THOR anti-capitol ship warheads.
Armor and Structure: The two best ways to describe military construction in the TOG reality can best be summed up in two phrases. 'Make it tough' and 'Redundent backups'. Shielding only goes so far and advances in targeting make speed useless as a defense. Meter thick armor plating made of meterial several orders of magnitude tougher then hardened steel can be blasted to nothingness in just a few shots. Designers know their vehicles are going to take damage, so their design philosophy is focused on not only allowing their craft to take that damage, but to remain functional and still keep it's crew safe after taking that damage. For example, in cannon, a TOG battleship was tricked into accepting a shuttle laden with nuclear explosives into it's internal bay. When the warhead was detonated the battleship, the Ave Caesar, though crippled by the blast, lost none of it's offensive capability and still was able to force the Commonwealth fleet into retreat. This was expected by the Naram fleet, and the internal blast by a nuclear warhead was not intended to destroy the Battleship, it was mearly intended to damage and confuse it's command long enough to allow their escape.
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Mike DiCenso
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Dabat
- Bridge Officer
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Don't forget Centurion (tank combat), Leviathan (capitol ship combat) and Legionnaire (The RPG, and sadly the only one I do not have :/ )Mike DiCenso wrote:I do! In addition to Interceptor and Circus Imperium, among several others, such as their Star Trek RPG.Dabat wrote:I take it I am the only person who remembers FASA's other brainchild, the galaxy spanning reality of Centurion? :-p
-Mike
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Mike DiCenso
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In the TOG-verse, yes, there are so many fun things. But Circus Imperium stuck out as one of my favorites, just because of the game mechanics, the wonderfully colorful board and cardboard miniature "sets" made to evoke the chariot arena from Ben Hur, and the wicked sense of humor that went with it all; running over gladiators who'd fallen out of their chariots and either turning them into "beastie snacks", or "road bumps".... ;-)
In addition to those you already describe, I believe there was a TOG wargame called "Prefect", which took things from the tactical level of Centurion, Interceptor and Leviathan to the strategic one, allowing you to handle the subjugation or liberation of whole star systems.
-Mike
In addition to those you already describe, I believe there was a TOG wargame called "Prefect", which took things from the tactical level of Centurion, Interceptor and Leviathan to the strategic one, allowing you to handle the subjugation or liberation of whole star systems.
-Mike
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Dabat
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I had thought Prefect wasn't ever finished, but according to the wiki it has been. You live and learn. I am reading the HTML for Phalanx night now.Mike DiCenso wrote:In the TOG-verse, yes, there are so many fun things. But Circus Imperium stuck out as one of my favorites, just because of the game mechanics, the wonderfully colorful board and cardboard miniature "sets" made to evoke the chariot arena from Ben Hur, and the wicked sense of humor that went with it all; running over gladiators who'd fallen out of their chariots and either turning them into "beastie snacks", or "road bumps".... ;-)
In addition to those you already describe, I believe there was a TOG wargame called "Prefect", which took things from the tactical level of Centurion, Interceptor and Leviathan to the strategic one, allowing you to handle the subjugation or liberation of whole star systems.
-Mike
But, to keep us on track, do you have any thought on the TOG vs. the GE, other then the TOG will just steamroll them?
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Mike DiCenso
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Short of the ludicrous ICS level firepower, even TOG ships a 100 times less powerful than SW ships will still result in the TOG overrunning the GE. Shear numbers the likes of which we rarely hear of in sci-fi makes it all but a sure win, even if we invoke the pro-Wars arguments over GE industrial capacity, and assuming they divert all material used in the two Death Stars into building a hundred million more star destroyers.Dabat wrote: But, to keep us on track, do you have any thought on the TOG vs. the GE, other then the TOG will just steamroll them?
-Mike
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Dabat
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I am sure a war is a foregone conclusion. But don't forget that the TOG, for all it's faults, has an espionage network that is almost unmatched and LOTS of experiance in acting undetected. Why risk Legions of troops and several squadrons of warships when you can just bribe a sector commander or moff into switching sides with a few trillion credits, why not do so?
Or they could also co-opt the Empire economically, force areas into debt and then suddenly call in all the markers at once. You own it planet if they can't pay, and then move in a squadron of warships and say the whole system belongs to you. Either the planet manages to pay off it's debt, in which case you get massive amounts of money; they don't and you gain a star system or fifty, or the empire protests militarally, in which case you have the cause for war you have been looking for. Either way, you win.
The TOG could also secretly fund and co-opt pirates and other rebellious and illegal elements of society, much like the Soviet Union did in the years right after WWII. This has the dual benefits of making the local government look inept and impotent, and giving you ready made 'local heros' to stage a local rebellion which you can then step in and 'restore peace' for whichever side makes you look the best.
Closely related to that, assuming the GE humans are actually homo sapians, would be to infiltrate local governments with agents loyal to the TOG and allow them to work their own way into the structure, co-opting it form within. This would actually work well with any of the other aformentioned plots.
There are lots of things that could be done rather then outright war, or at least to give you a foothold before the war begins.
**EDIT**
And on the industrial capacity, just to replace losses from general wear and tear, the TOG needs to build over a billion warships a year. In addition the TOG navy has been steadally growing, despite massive defections to the Commonwealth** a centuries long war which can consume well over a hundred thousand ships in a week. And a billion ships a year is not even seen as a large expense, seeing as how the TOG can cast it's shadow over nearly fifty times that in inhabated systems (including the un-numbered multitudes of minor colony systems) and tens of quintillions of subjects. Long story short, anything the GE could build, the TOG could build more.
**300,000 battleship squadrons with attendant carrier and escourt squadrons as well as over a million Legions in the first year of the war alone.. Although admittedly this was the cause of the TOG's war with the Commonwealth.
Or they could also co-opt the Empire economically, force areas into debt and then suddenly call in all the markers at once. You own it planet if they can't pay, and then move in a squadron of warships and say the whole system belongs to you. Either the planet manages to pay off it's debt, in which case you get massive amounts of money; they don't and you gain a star system or fifty, or the empire protests militarally, in which case you have the cause for war you have been looking for. Either way, you win.
The TOG could also secretly fund and co-opt pirates and other rebellious and illegal elements of society, much like the Soviet Union did in the years right after WWII. This has the dual benefits of making the local government look inept and impotent, and giving you ready made 'local heros' to stage a local rebellion which you can then step in and 'restore peace' for whichever side makes you look the best.
Closely related to that, assuming the GE humans are actually homo sapians, would be to infiltrate local governments with agents loyal to the TOG and allow them to work their own way into the structure, co-opting it form within. This would actually work well with any of the other aformentioned plots.
There are lots of things that could be done rather then outright war, or at least to give you a foothold before the war begins.
**EDIT**
And on the industrial capacity, just to replace losses from general wear and tear, the TOG needs to build over a billion warships a year. In addition the TOG navy has been steadally growing, despite massive defections to the Commonwealth** a centuries long war which can consume well over a hundred thousand ships in a week. And a billion ships a year is not even seen as a large expense, seeing as how the TOG can cast it's shadow over nearly fifty times that in inhabated systems (including the un-numbered multitudes of minor colony systems) and tens of quintillions of subjects. Long story short, anything the GE could build, the TOG could build more.
**300,000 battleship squadrons with attendant carrier and escourt squadrons as well as over a million Legions in the first year of the war alone.. Although admittedly this was the cause of the TOG's war with the Commonwealth.