40K Dark Apostle/Dark Disciple-SPOILERS!

[The Corporal]

Not sure whether this belongs here or in other.


I recently picked up Dark Apostle and Dark Disciple by Anthony Reynolds which follows the psychotic adventures of a First Acolyte of the Word Bearers Legion. In the first novel we see the Word Bearers assault an Imperial planet and construct a massive tower using the bodies of its inhabitants in order to access a powerful xeno artefact. We also get a good look at how they treat their cultists and the Imperial population. It's quite clear that the cultists are only there to serve the whims of their Chaos masters. In the first scene with the cultists meeting the Legion commander, one is executed for not lowering his eyes when meeting the Dark Apostle and many more are sacrificed in order to summon daemons and the like from the Warp. One gets the sense that they really didn't know what they were in for when they turned to Chaos.

We also get a good look at the now Imperial slave force. After being taken the slaves have a Chaos star stapled under the flesh of the forehead and will spending their time building the tower they get subjected to a constant stream of "noise" (which is apparently a Chaos language), even during their sleep period. When the air around the tower site gets too polluted to breath they shove a living gas mask down their throats Alien style.

This is without a doubt one of the most f***ed up WH40K books I have ever read and while it is an interesting look at Chaos, it's a good reminder of why they are the bad guys.

Dark Disciple is a more conventional novel in the style of a CSM commando raid and while less f***ed up, it has its moments. For example at the end, a human who aided the First Acolyte in his escape from an Eldar ship gets handed over to the slave gangs just for being a human and having outlived his "usefulness". And of course there is the obligatory look at the Dark Eldars torture practices.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This is without a doubt one of the most f***ed up WH40K books I have ever read and while it is an interesting look at Chaos, it's a good reminder of why they are the bad guys.

There are good guys? :)

On the other hand, I always wondered where the gods of love, compassion, care, altruism, peace and whatever were sitting in the WH40K universe.

If things like vanity, greed, rage and else find a focusing beacon that gives negative emotions enough consistence so beings can feed on them and rule through them, what about the opposite?

[The Corporal]

There are good guys? :)

The Tau are probably the closest to what we would traditionally consider good guys, though even they are pretty jerkish. ;)

On the other hand, I always wondered where the gods of love, compassion, care, altruism, peace and whatever were sitting in the WH40K universe.

Love=Slaanesh
Compassion=Nurgle
Altruism=GEoM
Peace=???

If things like vanity, greed, rage and else find a focusing beacon that gives negative emotions enough consistence so beings can feed on them and rule through them, what about the opposite?

The GEoM would fill the role for the "good" emotions of humanity. Chaos only gets involved when things are taken to excess.

[Dabat]

That is the worst you have read from 40k? Read Gaunt's Ghosts by Dan Abnett. People vomit up worms and maggots when they are caught near a chaos becon; saints are buried alive; icons are held aloft by the carmalized bodies of non-believers; titans stride forward regardless of what is in the way, buildings, enemies, friendly troops, the priests currently blessing them; brbed maggots are placed under the flesh of captured peoples to corrupt them faster; captives are worked to death so they will have food to feed other captives... The list goes on and on, and not all of those are from Chaos.

Oragahn: The gods of love, care, compassion and such were eaten by the gods of 'screwing over your buddies to get ahead'. :3

Interesting fact about the 'Gods' of 40k. The galaxy is 9+ billion years old, yet the oldest god active has a stated max age of 100 million years. So my question to you now is, where did all the other Gods go?

[The Corporal]

That is the worst you have read from 40k? Read Gaunt's Ghosts by Dan Abnett. People vomit up worms and maggots when they are caught near a chaos becon; saints are buried alive; icons are held aloft by the carmalized bodies of non-believers; titans stride forward regardless of what is in the way, buildings, enemies, friendly troops, the priests currently blessing them; brbed maggots are placed under the flesh of captured peoples to corrupt them faster; captives are worked to death so they will have food to feed other captives... The list goes on and on, and not all of those are from Chaos.

Err...no. I actually love these ones. I really don't care for Gaunt though, so I avoid that series.

Oragahn: The gods of love, care, compassion and such were eaten by the gods of 'screwing over your buddies to get ahead'. :3

Sorta, Nurgle definitely takes care of the love bit. Well he loves his followers anyway.

Interesting fact about the 'Gods' of 40k. The galaxy is 9+ billion years old, yet the oldest god active has a stated max age of 100 million years. So my question to you now is, where did all the other Gods go?

The C'Tan ate them.

[Dabat]

That is the worst you have read from 40k? Read Gaunt's Ghosts by Dan Abnett. People vomit up worms and maggots when they are caught near a chaos becon; saints are buried alive; icons are held aloft by the carmalized bodies of non-believers; titans stride forward regardless of what is in the way, buildings, enemies, friendly troops, the priests currently blessing them; brbed maggots are placed under the flesh of captured peoples to corrupt them faster; captives are worked to death so they will have food to feed other captives... The list goes on and on, and not all of those are from Chaos.

Err...no. I actually love these ones. I really don't care for Gaunt though, so I avoid that series.

Too bad. I thought the first few books were the weekst of the series. Others like Sabbot Saint, Necropolis and [/i]Only In Death[/i] I thought were much better.

If you really don't want to read Gaunt's Ghosts (To each their own) I still highly recomend Double Eagle and Titanicus. Both explore limited and oft ignored segments of 40k combat (Airpower and Titans) and both are very well written.

Oragahn: The gods of love, care, compassion and such were eaten by the gods of 'screwing over your buddies to get ahead'. :3

Sorta, Nurgle definitely takes care of the love bit. Well he loves his followers anyway.

aww, Big Papa Nurgle loves everybody. :)

Interesting fact about the 'Gods' of 40k. The galaxy is 9+ billion years old, yet the oldest god active has a stated max age of 100 million years. So my question to you now is, where did all the other Gods go?

The C'Tan ate them.

I always thought the C'Tan were over rated, though I think it would be sort of cool if Cthulhu or Nartholtep showed up and whupped some C'Tan ass. :-D


PS. Forgive my typing, I have a nasty bronchial infection and have been given hydrocodone for the pain, which if you gentlemen have never tried I highly recomend.

[The Corporal]

Too bad. I thought the first few books were the weekst of the series. Others like Sabbot Saint, Necropolis and [/i]Only In Death[/i] I thought were much better.

If you really don't want to read Gaunt's Ghosts (To each their own) I still highly recomend Double Eagle and Titanicus. Both explore limited and oft ignored segments of 40k combat (Airpower and Titans) and both are very well written.

I quite enjoyed Double Eagle, I'm still waiting for Titanicus to be released in Canada in paperback.

aww, Big Papa Nurgle loves everybody. :)

lol

I always thought the C'Tan were over rated, though I think it would be sort of cool if Cthulhu or Nartholtep showed up and whupped some C'Tan ass. :-D

I certainly find the C'Tan to be rather boring. Though I enjoy the Necrons, wierd considering they have no personality.

PS. Forgive my typing, I have a nasty bronchial infection and have been given hydrocodone for the pain, which if you gentlemen have never tried I highly recomend.

I have and I wound up an addict, good stuff untill you start seeing things though.

[Dabat]

Too bad. I thought the first few books were the weekst of the series. Others like Sabbot Saint, Necropolis and [/i]Only In Death[/i] I thought were much better.

If you really don't want to read Gaunt's Ghosts (To each their own) I still highly recomend Double Eagle and Titanicus. Both explore limited and oft ignored segments of 40k combat (Airpower and Titans) and both are very well written.

I quite enjoyed Double Eagle, I'm still waiting for Titanicus to be released in Canada in paperback.

Ah, with any luck it'll be soon. Leave it to Dan Abnett to make a 100 meter tall behemoth sound majestic.

aww, Big Papa Nurgle loves everybody. :)

lol

Actually, I was just reminded of something, one of the most interesting arguments about the Chaos Gods I have heard is the reason they don't topple the IoM/consume reality/kill all life is because they know at that point they'd be staring down the barrel of eternity with nothing left to do. They moderate themselves and even go so far as to hamstring their underlings when they become too successful.

I always thought the C'Tan were over rated, though I think it would be sort of cool if Cthulhu or Nartholtep showed up and whupped some C'Tan ass. :-D

I certainly find the C'Tan to be rather boring. Though I enjoy the Necrons, wierd considering they have no personality.

I've heard it said that the necrons are just drones for the most part, but the only time I can recall a necron speak in anything cannon, there was no indication he (it?) was anything other then a standerd warrior. I've always thought they were more along the lines of 'We are so old we don't care anymore' camp rather then 'We are Necron of Borg'.

[The Corporal]

Actually, I was just reminded of something, one of the most interesting arguments about the Chaos Gods I have heard is the reason they don't topple the IoM/consume reality/kill all life is because they know at that point they'd be staring down the barrel of eternity with nothing left to do. They moderate themselves and even go so far as to hamstring their underlings when they become too successful.

IIRC that was the Cabals argument in Legion, that if Horus wins, humanity will eventually die out after being consumed whole by Chaos, who will then also die out.

I've heard it said that the necrons are just drones for the most part, but the only time I can recall a necron speak in anything cannon, there was no indication he (it?) was anything other then a standerd warrior. I've always thought they were more along the lines of 'We are so old we don't care anymore' camp rather then 'We are Necron of Borg'.

Well the avergae Necron is indeed a souless, personality free automaton with the higher ones like Lords (IIRC) retaining something like their original personality.

I actually find them superior to the Borg because they really don't care anything about you or what you have, as long as they can accomplish their goals.

[Dabat]

Actually, I was just reminded of something, one of the most interesting arguments about the Chaos Gods I have heard is the reason they don't topple the IoM/consume reality/kill all life is because they know at that point they'd be staring down the barrel of eternity with nothing left to do. They moderate themselves and even go so far as to hamstring their underlings when they become too successful.

IIRC that was the Cabals argument in Legion, that if Horus wins, humanity will eventually die out after being consumed whole by Chaos, who will then also die out.

Was it? I havn't read Legion yet, i'll need to pick it up.

I've heard it said that the necrons are just drones for the most part, but the only time I can recall a necron speak in anything cannon, there was no indication he (it?) was anything other then a standerd warrior. I've always thought they were more along the lines of 'We are so old we don't care anymore' camp rather then 'We are Necron of Borg'.

Well the avergae Necron is indeed a souless, personality free automaton with the higher ones like Lords (IIRC) retaining something like their original personality.

I actually find them superior to the Borg because they really don't care anything about you or what you have, as long as they can accomplish their goals.

Like I said, i've heard that most necrons are 'drones' with no soul or personality left. But i've never heard it in cannon coming from a necron itself. The only time I can recall hearing a necron speak at length in anything appraoching cannon was in 'Xenology', and I don't recall there being any solid indication that it was anything more then a drone.

[The Corporal]

Like I said, i've heard that most necrons are 'drones' with no soul or personality left. But i've never heard it in cannon coming from a necron itself. The only time I can recall hearing a necron speak at length in anything appraoching cannon was in 'Xenology', and I don't recall there being any solid indication that it was anything more then a drone.

IIRC the Necrons offered the C'Tan bodies in exchange for serving them and immortality, the C'Tan tricked them and turned them into little more than robot zombies. Certain ones exhibit personality traits, in Caves of Ice Cain witnesses several Flayed Ones wearing cloaks of human and ork skin.

The Warhammer Wiki has a bunch of stuff on them but it is unrealiable at best.

Was it? I havn't read Legion yet, i'll need to pick it up.

Definitely one of the better HH novels, the Alpha Legion aren't the typical "kill them all" Legion and were well portrayed. Of course it was Abnett that wrote it and most of his work is quite good.

[Dabat]

Like I said, i've heard that most necrons are 'drones' with no soul or personality left. But i've never heard it in cannon coming from a necron itself. The only time I can recall hearing a necron speak at length in anything appraoching cannon was in 'Xenology', and I don't recall there being any solid indication that it was anything more then a drone.

IIRC the Necrons offered the C'Tan bodies in exchange for serving them and immortality, the C'Tan tricked them and turned them into little more than robot zombies. Certain ones exhibit personality traits, in Caves of Ice Cain witnesses several Flayed Ones wearing cloaks of human and ork skin.

The Warhammer Wiki has a bunch of stuff on them but it is unrealiable at best.

Cain novels, though an amuesing read, aren't exactaly cannon, they were written to be over the top and light hearted. Some of the events written about in Cain's autobiography have been included into the cannon, such as the world he was on that was eaten by the bugs (whos name escapes me) was actually eaten by the bugs, but not neccaceraly the way he described them. (Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Cain, he's just not a good source for cannon)

Unreliable at best is a good way to put the Warhammer Wiki, which is at least partly due to the fact the guys over at games workshop often deliberately lie in fluff.

I am glad you brought up the Flayed Ones though. When the Necrons first appeared in late second edition they were described as emotionless but capeable of acting totally on their own as well as being capeable of indipendent thought. And when they first got their codex in third edition, the Flayed Ones were described as frightening, not because they wore the skins of those they had killed, but because they were inherantly soulless. A state that all living things can preceave and is something we find repugnant and terrorfying on every level, even if we do not know why.

The first part indicates that the average Necron warrior is, if not fully sientient, is at least a free thinking machine, while the second shows that they do still have their souls.

Was it? I havn't read Legion yet, i'll need to pick it up.

Definitely one of the better HH novels, the Alpha Legion aren't the typical "kill them all" Legion and were well portrayed. Of course it was Abnett that wrote it and most of his work is quite good.

Rather like the Thousand Sons then? They were loyal legion, it was the Emperor who turned from them.

[The Corporal]

Cain novels, though an amuesing read, aren't exactaly cannon, they were written to be over the top and light hearted. Some of the events written about in Cain's autobiography have been included into the cannon, such as the world he was on that was eaten by the bugs (whos name escapes me) was actually eaten by the bugs, but not neccaceraly the way he described them. (Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Cain, he's just not a good source for cannon)

Not quite, everything except game mechanics themselves in WH40K are canon. There is no particular stated order but any of the fluff is admissable.

Unreliable at best is a good way to put the Warhammer Wiki, which is at least partly due to the fact the guys over at games workshop often deliberately lie in fluff.

Their BS attitude towards the IP doesn't help much either.

I am glad you brought up the Flayed Ones though. When the Necrons first appeared in late second edition they were described as emotionless but capeable of acting totally on their own as well as being capeable of indipendent thought. And when they first got their codex in third edition, the Flayed Ones were described as frightening, not because they wore the skins of those they had killed, but because they were inherantly soulless. A state that all living things can preceave and is something we find repugnant and terrorfying on every level, even if we do not know why.

Their akin to Blanks among humans are they not?

The first part indicates that the average Necron warrior is, if not fully sientient, is at least a free thinking machine, while the second shows that they do still have their souls.

Hmm. Thats interesting. I should start picking up codexs.

Rather like the Thousand Sons then? They were loyal legion, it was the Emperor who turned from them.

I get the impression from the novel that they turned to bring down Horus from the inside. It doesn't go into much detail, it happens right at the end.

The Thousand Sons though, Horus convinced Russ to attack Prospero (thats what I get out of the current HH info) rather than bring him in as the GEoM had wanted.