Yuuzan Vong vs. Imperium of Man

[l33telboi]

When it comes to casualties, remember that the Vong didn't just target military assets, they also targeted civilians, and from what I've understood, they even destroyed Coruscant. But the Vong on the other hand was pretty much almost all military, they didn't have any planets that could be destroyed.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Maybe the few hundred to a thousand number is for worldships?

Also, the NJO series sucked, wheras the Thrawn books were excellent. They were the only SWW books that even came close to the better 40k books I've read (Early horus heresy novels, Space wolf series, Deus Sanguinius etc).

I dunno, I tend to think the Thrawn trilogy was nice when I read it for the first time, a whiiiiile ago, but it's full of convenient and phony events that even make the movie's events to be totally random.

The duology was just as boring as the Dark Fleet Crisis. The NJO started well. Vector Prime was an excellent and creepy introduction to the Vong. I didn't read more than the two or three first books though.

Now, in terms of power, the Vong could survive by their ability to settle and colonize any world with their worldships and bug plagues, but they'll be nothing more than a very minor nuisance. They just don't have the firepower nor the numbers.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

When it comes to casualties, remember that the Vong didn't just target military assets, they also targeted civilians, and from what I've understood, they even destroyed Coruscant. But the Vong on the other hand was pretty much almost all military, they didn't have any planets that could be destroyed.

I have already mentioned that 1 trillion of the casualties came from Coruscant alone and that civilian deaths are included, but even if 99% of the death were civilian, that is still 3.6 trillion military deaths. If we were to continue and say that the NR/GFFA took roughly four times the casualties, the Yuuzhan Vong would still have taken a little over 900 billion casualties. I think these are fairly conservative numbers, but I could be wrong.

Sean0931: I rather liked the NJO, some of the books were less than amazing, and the series was grimdark for the most part, but it was a rather refreshing idea that revitalized a struggling and repetitive EU. Also, there are some very cool moments in the series, including Ganner Rhysode's stand at the gates. "No, I am Ganner. This threshold is mine, I claim it for my own. You can send your thousands, One by one or all in a rush, I don't give a damn. None shall pass."

[Dabat]

When it comes to casualties, remember that the Vong didn't just target military assets, they also targeted civilians, and from what I've understood, they even destroyed Coruscant. But the Vong on the other hand was pretty much almost all military, they didn't have any planets that could be destroyed.

I have already mentioned that 1 trillion of the casualties came from Coruscant alone and that civilian deaths are included, but even if 99% of the death were civilian, that is still 3.6 trillion military deaths. If we were to continue and say that the NR/GFFA took roughly four times the casualties, the Yuuzhan Vong would still have taken a little over 900 billion casualties. I think these are fairly conservative numbers, but I could be wrong.

Sean0931: I rather liked the NJO, some of the books were less than amazing, and the series was grimdark for the most part, but it was a rather refreshing idea that revitalized a struggling and repetitive EU. Also, there are some very cool moments in the series, including Ganner Rhysode's stand at the gates. "No, I am Ganner. This threshold is mine, I claim it for my own. You can send your thousands, One by one or all in a rush, I don't give a damn. None shall pass."

Seeing as how de-militerized the Republic was, I could see 10,000-to-1 civilian to military deaths being more accurate, though that is a debate for another time.

even if your numbers are right (Note, I am not saying they aren't, both of our posts are mostly based upon conjecture and opinion) I honestly do not think the NR could claim 1 Vong for every 4 soldiers they lost. in space they could rarely claim 1 for every ten, and I doubt it was much different on the ground. If anything, I recall it being much worse there, as every weapon or piece of tech the republic had, the Vong already had a way to counter it. Then again, you have read the books much more recently than i have, there could be something I am missing.

[Mr. Oragahn]

When it comes to casualties, remember that the Vong didn't just target military assets, they also targeted civilians, and from what I've understood, they even destroyed Coruscant. But the Vong on the other hand was pretty much almost all military, they didn't have any planets that could be destroyed.

I have already mentioned that 1 trillion of the casualties came from Coruscant alone and that civilian deaths are included, but even if 99% of the death were civilian, that is still 3.6 trillion military deaths. If we were to continue and say that the NR/GFFA took roughly four times the casualties, the Yuuzhan Vong would still have taken a little over 900 billion casualties. I think these are fairly conservative numbers, but I could be wrong."

You may have millions or even billions of police forces and military troops on Coruscant, but the New Republic was very short on ships.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

You seem to be missing the last half of the series where the Republic was routinely able to route Vong Forces thanks to tech advancement, they also began using battle droids, and new Jedi Competence in physical combat(Jedi are generally shown, later on, to be able to take on many Vong at once because of the ability to track the individual voids in the Force, thereby getting around the fact that they were invisible to the Force). You must also take into account the Vong's tendancy to choose suicide over retreat(usually, not always) or captivity. Generally, a NR victory meant total annihilation of Yuuzhan Vong Forces. Borsk Fey'la took out 20, 000 Vong himself. Even though the Warmaster knew he had a bomb on him, he still sent men to capture him and did not divert troop transports away from the building. I mean, with acts such as this, it is amazing that the Vong got as far as they did. Also, the Vong had multiple ships that were as big, or bigger than an SSD, and at least two of these were completely destroyed. An SSD can carry over 200, 000 men, can't remember exact number, and a Vong warship is irregularly shaped compared to conventional designs, and were often wider and deeper than normal ships of their size. This could mean that these large Vong ships could carry upwards of 200, 000 warriors.

Now, as far as demilitarization, the Galaxy far far away had been at war ever since the Clone Wars(more or less), roughly 47 years. I am not sure how demilitarized a galaxy can be after 47 straight years of war. I know that at one point during the war the First Fleet(there were at least three fleets at this time, also, I cannot remember if it is the whole 1st fleet or half of it) numbered 700 (possibly 900, I'll look it up later) ships, not including fighter analogs or transports. I believe this was in Star by Star. Now, these fleets are ships that are under direct control of the Alliance military, not including the Remnant's ships, the Hutt's ships, the hapan ships, nor any planetary defense fleets, which most inhabited worlds had. I would argue that, for SW standards, this qualifies as very militarized.

[Dabat]

You seem to be missing the last half of the series where the Republic was routinely able to route Vong Forces thanks to tech advancement, they also began using battle droids, and new Jedi Competence in physical combat(Jedi are generally shown, later on, to be able to take on many Vong at once because of the ability to track the individual voids in the Force, thereby getting around the fact that they were invisible to the Force). You must also take into account the Vong's tendancy to choose suicide over retreat(usually, not always) or captivity. Generally, a NR victory meant total annihilation of Yuuzhan Vong Forces. Borsk Fey'la took out 20, 000 Vong himself. Even though the Warmaster knew he had a bomb on him, he still sent men to capture him and did not divert troop transports away from the building. I mean, with acts such as this, it is amazing that the Vong got as far as they did. Also, the Vong had multiple ships that were as big, or bigger than an SSD, and at least two of these were completely destroyed. An SSD can carry over 200, 000 men, can't remember exact number, and a Vong warship is irregularly shaped compared to conventional designs, and were often wider and deeper than normal ships of their size. This could mean that these large Vong ships could carry upwards of 200, 000 warriors.

Now, as far as demilitarization, the Galaxy far far away had been at war ever since the Clone Wars(more or less), roughly 47 years. I am not sure how demilitarized a galaxy can be after 47 straight years of war. I know that at one point during the war the First Fleet(there were at least three fleets at this time, also, I cannot remember if it is the whole 1st fleet or half of it) numbered 700 (possibly 900, I'll look it up later) ships, not including fighter analogs or transports. I believe this was in Star by Star. Now, these fleets are ships that are under direct control of the Alliance military, not including the Remnant's ships, the Hutt's ships, the hapan ships, nor any planetary defense fleets, which most inhabited worlds had. I would argue that, for SW standards, this qualifies as very militarized.

Oh, yeah, the Hapan fleet, the one that could of tipped the balance in the Republic's favor by itself, got killed for no fucking reason at all. And then the guy who did it was celebrated as a hero. >.>

Being pissed off at the New Republic and wanting them to die the death at the hands of the Vong that they rightly deserve aside, the New Republic went through a period of demiliterization prior to the Vong showing up. Eve if every fleet was twice as large as the 900 ships, and they had seven fleets rather than three, they would still only be able to mass less than half the firepower of the Empire at it's height. This is before the massive losses they took in the first few years of the Vong Invasion.

I did miss the New Republic kicking ass and taking names later in the series though. (Why the fuck weren't they using Battle Driods and Death Stars right off the bat? It was a war of genocide for crying out fucking loud!) Those might be able to bring the losses figures up to one to four, but I still doubt that 1% of the New Republic's losses were military in nature. Such would require a mobilization on a scale the galaxy have never seen in cannon, and one that the senate would never ok. And by the time the senate was no longer an issue, like you said, the NR was already using massive numbers of battle droids.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Not massive numbers of battle droids. The largest number of Battle droids I recall reading was in the low thousands. They were deployed in very low numbers, but were specifically designed to kill the Vong. Jedi have more trouble with these fuckers than they did with Droidekas, or whatever they were called. They were hardcore.

Something else I forgot about...the NR also used a substance, alpha red(I think), that specifically targeted and killed all Vong lifeforms. They used on at least one occupied planet, casualties are unknown.

At the end of the war, battles were constantly described as being between hundreds, occasionally thousands, of ships on each side. Total war was declared by the galactic federation for free alliances, as evidence I ask you to look at the bit about Alpha red. The Bothans declared Arkrai, which means they wouldn't stop fighting until every single Vong was dead.

There was also a Vong uprising, where thousands upon thousands of Vong were killed on each side.

I would argue that the NR/GFFA and the Vong took nearly equal military casualties, I would almost argue that the Vong took more. Don't underestimate their refusal to be captured. They were always killing themselves. The Vong's massive losses actually became a plot point, with the Warmaster taking extreme shit because of it. Then he got himself killed, along with around 75% of his fleet.

Now, for military/civilian death ratio, I believe 75% of the Hapan fleet going in a push of a button accounted for a good chunk. Don't forget about planetary defense forces in your calculations, pretty much every inhabited planet had its own ships, and also its own ground forces. Most of the planets that were severely Vong-formed were either unihabited or nearly so. Then you have Ithor, yet all of the Ithorians lived in ships in low orbit. Almost none were allowed on the planet. Also, most planets had time to evacuate before the Vong got there. After most of the biggest battles, hundreds of dead NR ships were said to be just floating in the void. As you said, massive military casualties were taken early on.

I think 1/100 is a fair ratio, but I could be wrong.

[l33telboi]

I have already mentioned that 1 trillion of the casualties came from Coruscant alone and that civilian deaths are included, but even if 99% of the death were civilian, that is still 3.6 trillion military deaths. If we were to continue and say that the NR/GFFA took roughly four times the casualties, the Yuuzhan Vong would still have taken a little over 900 billion casualties. I think these are fairly conservative numbers, but I could be wrong.

The problem with Coruscant is that if you assume the 1 trillion figure is correct, then the 300+ trillion figure becomes absurd. Coruscant is probably the most highly populated planet in Star Wars, and in all likelihood the galactic population won't be more then an order of magnitude or two higher then that of Coruscant.

However, later material has said that Coruscant has more then 1 trillion inhabitants; it's just that the people living in the slums and stuff weren't counted when the 1 trillion figure was given.

In short, the majority of that figure probably perished along with Coruscant.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Please forgive me, but what the hell are you talking about? Coruscant wasn't destroyed. It was captured and the Vong took it as their home planet. There were still billions, if not trillions of inhabitants hiding in the lower levels. At least 900 billion were captured by the Vong and then sent out in massive refugee ships to random planets in order to shorten GFFA supplies and to draw out Jaina Solo.

One of the other battles I mentioned where tens of thousands of ships are mentioned on each side, was the Second Battle of Coruscant, where the GFFA regained the planet. Yeah, there were massive casualties there, but no where near the entire population died. I think the population was stated to be somewhere near 10 trillion permanent inhabitants, with billions constantly streaming in and out. Yes, it is possible that those in the under levels were not counted in the population, but many of them survived and are still living in the under levels some 15 years later. Most of them are near feral, mind. Another thing to consider is that Coruscant was evacuated. I have know idea what percentage of the population was able to leave the planet before it was captured, but some did.

Now, I must ask, why would the capital planet of a government that holds more than a millions systems, and at least 10, 000 inhabited worlds, have to make up a massive amount of the population? Some of the planets are larger than Coruscant and almost as densely populated. Corellia is one world that springs to mind.

[l33telboi]

Forgive me, like I said I've only read the start of the series and was under the impression that the planet's surface had been destroyed.