Yuuzan Vong vs. Imperium of Man

[Dabat]

There are three big problems that the Vong would face which I believe you have overlooked.

One important thing to remember is that FTL is not a constant with time in 40K. No matter how fast the Vong go the Imperium can still end up going faster, as with Warp travel it is quite possible to end up arriving at your destination before you set out. This is rare, but it does happen.

Another big problem for the Vong is how badly they are out-ranged by Imperial ships, even system defense craft carry weapon batteries which reach a minimum of 15,000 km. I have not seen the max ranges on the Vong weapons, but I do remember reading that they have trouble hitting beyond 100,000 meters, less than 1% the effective range of the smallest system defense ships.

The last is an issue of simple numbers. The Imperium thinks nothing of throwing a hundred million soldiers at a problem to make it go away. Star Wars fights with fighters in the squadrons, while 40k carriers and space stations carry spacecraft in the wings. Current terminology has squadrons of twelve, flights are five squadrons (total 60) and wings are six flights (for a total of 360 combat aircraft per wing), which Wars and 40k seem to follow.

[Sean0931]

There are three big problems that the Vong would face which I believe you have overlooked.

One important thing to remember is that FTL is not a constant with time in 40K. No matter how fast the Vong go the Imperium can still end up going faster, as with Warp travel it is quite possible to end up arriving at your destination before you set out. This is rare, but it does happen.

Exactly, it's rare. As it is so rare, it's going to have very little impact on this fight, and it's just as likely the ship will come out 1000 years late, or not come out at all. The Vong, for all intents and purposes, have incredibly superior FTL (but how long this lasts with the tech hungry admech around is another matter, we've seen them reverse-engineer Xenos technology before, afterall)

Another big problem for the Vong is how badly they are out-ranged by Imperial ships, even system defense craft carry weapon batteries which reach a minimum of 15,000 km. I have not seen the max ranges on the Vong weapons, but I do remember reading that they have trouble hitting beyond 100,000 meters, less than 1% the effective range of the smallest system defense ships.

Having a small minimum range is not so bad when the enemy can do nothing to stop you jumping right next to them

The last is an issue of simple numbers. The Imperium thinks nothing of throwing a hundred million soldiers at a problem to make it go away. Star Wars fights with fighters in the squadrons, while 40k carriers and space stations carry spacecraft in the wings. Current terminology has squadrons of twelve, flights are five squadrons (total 60) and wings are six flights (for a total of 360 combat aircraft per wing), which Wars and 40k seem to follow.

I agree that Vong fighters are utterly outmatched by 40k ones, but the Vongs superior FTL means that they can send their whole fleet to take one world, and then arrive in minutes at another one when help is needed, whereas IOM reinforcements will take months to arrive. Quintessentially, they can counter individual 40k battlegroups with their races entire fleet, meaning they will take next to no losses. I agree that the fight on the ground will not go in the vong's favour, but they will have the ultimate high ground. After they have dispatched most of the IOM navy, they can take planets at their leisure.

Bolded stuff is mine.[/b]

[Dabat]

Exactly, it's rare. As it is so rare, it's going to have very little impact on this fight, and it's just as likely the ship will come out 1000 years late, or not come out at all. The Vong, for all intents and purposes, have incredibly superior FTL (but how long this lasts with the tech hungry admech around is another matter, we've seen them reverse-engineer Xenos technology before, afterall)

That was just an example. But you are right here, intersteller-wise the Vong travel much faster.

Another big problem for the Vong is how badly they are out-ranged by Imperial ships, even system defense craft carry weapon batteries which reach a minimum of 15,000 km. I have not seen the max ranges on the Vong weapons, but I do remember reading that they have trouble hitting beyond 100,000 meters, less than 1% the effective range of the smallest system defense ships.

Having a small minimum range is not so bad when the enemy can do nothing to stop you jumping right next to them

I will admit that the few books I read that dealt with the Vong so blinded me with rage that I remember very little. But to the best of my knowledge no one in the star wars universe has sensors or the accuracy when going FTL to pull this feat off. Even if the Vong do have such pin point accuracy with their jumps as to be able to jump within a thousand meters of a ship, they still rely on their sensors to gather their information, which can not detect a ship in open space at 12,000,000** meters away. An Imperial vessel can not only detect ships at this range, but can readily engage them.

**I remember reading this, but I do not remember where. am I mis-remembering something, and/or are Vong sensors far more powerful then I have been lead to believe?

The last is an issue of simple numbers. The Imperium thinks nothing of throwing a hundred million soldiers at a problem to make it go away. Star Wars fights with fighters in the squadrons, while 40k carriers and space stations carry spacecraft in the wings. Current terminology has squadrons of twelve, flights are five squadrons (total 60) and wings are six flights (for a total of 360 combat aircraft per wing), which Wars and 40k seem to follow.

I agree that Vong fighters are utterly outmatched by 40k ones, but the Vongs superior FTL means that they can send their whole fleet to take one world, and then arrive in minutes at another one when help is needed, whereas IOM reinforcements will take months to arrive. Quintessentially, they can counter individual 40k battlegroups with their races entire fleet, meaning they will take next to no losses. I agree that the fight on the ground will not go in the vong's favour, but they will have the ultimate high ground. After they have dispatched most of the IOM navy, they can take planets at their leisure.

First, the Vong have no idea where all the IoM worlds are,

Second, Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Vong population under 100 million or so? I seem to recall that they only had a handful of worldships, and those were dying on them. Their combat fleets numbered only a few hundred warships in total, the largest of which is the equivalent of a large 40k escort, none of which the IoM would consider capitol craft. What are they taking all of these worlds with? Even if every Vong soldier and pilot takes 1,000 of his IoM counterparts with him before he dies, that is still at worst case a sector or two that will fall before the Vong are killed off to a man-erm... Xenos.

[Sean0931]

Exactly, it's rare. As it is so rare, it's going to have very little impact on this fight, and it's just as likely the ship will come out 1000 years late, or not come out at all. The Vong, for all intents and purposes, have incredibly superior FTL (but how long this lasts with the tech hungry admech around is another matter, we've seen them reverse-engineer Xenos technology before, afterall)

That was just an example. But you are right here, intersteller-wise the Vong travel much faster.

Another big problem for the Vong is how badly they are out-ranged by Imperial ships, even system defense craft carry weapon batteries which reach a minimum of 15,000 km. I have not seen the max ranges on the Vong weapons, but I do remember reading that they have trouble hitting beyond 100,000 meters, less than 1% the effective range of the smallest system defense ships.

Having a small minimum range is not so bad when the enemy can do nothing to stop you jumping right next to them

I will admit that the few books I read that dealt with the Vong so blinded me with rage that I remember very little. But to the best of my knowledge no one in the star wars universe has sensors or the accuracy when going FTL to pull this feat off. Even if the Vong do have such pin point accuracy with their jumps as to be able to jump within a thousand meters of a ship, they still rely on their sensors to gather their information, which can not detect a ship in open space at 12,000,000** meters away. An Imperial vessel can not only detect ships at this range, but can readily engage them.

**I remember reading this, but I do not remember where. am I mis-remembering something, and/or are Vong sensors far more powerful then I have been lead to believe?

The last is an issue of simple numbers. The Imperium thinks nothing of throwing a hundred million soldiers at a problem to make it go away. Star Wars fights with fighters in the squadrons, while 40k carriers and space stations carry spacecraft in the wings. Current terminology has squadrons of twelve, flights are five squadrons (total 60) and wings are six flights (for a total of 360 combat aircraft per wing), which Wars and 40k seem to follow.

I agree that Vong fighters are utterly outmatched by 40k ones, but the Vongs superior FTL means that they can send their whole fleet to take one world, and then arrive in minutes at another one when help is needed, whereas IOM reinforcements will take months to arrive. Quintessentially, they can counter individual 40k battlegroups with their races entire fleet, meaning they will take next to no losses. I agree that the fight on the ground will not go in the vong's favour, but they will have the ultimate high ground. After they have dispatched most of the IOM navy, they can take planets at their leisure.

First, the Vong have no idea where all the IoM worlds are,

Second, Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Vong population under 100 million or so? I seem to recall that they only had a handful of worldships, and those were dying on them. Their combat fleets numbered only a few hundred warships in total, the largest of which is the equivalent of a large 40k escort, none of which the IoM would consider capitol craft. What are they taking all of these worlds with? Even if every Vong soldier and pilot takes 1,000 of his IoM counterparts with him before he dies, that is still at worst case a sector or two that will fall before the Vong are killed off to a man-erm... Xenos.

To be honest, I've only read two NJO books (Rebel dream and the sequel). I was just rattling off the standard SW v 40k argument. TBH I had no idea the Vong were that pathetic.

[Sean0931]

Exactly, it's rare. As it is so rare, it's going to have very little impact on this fight, and it's just as likely the ship will come out 1000 years late, or not come out at all. The Vong, for all intents and purposes, have incredibly superior FTL (but how long this lasts with the tech hungry admech around is another matter, we've seen them reverse-engineer Xenos technology before, afterall)

That was just an example. But you are right here, intersteller-wise the Vong travel much faster.

Another big problem for the Vong is how badly they are out-ranged by Imperial ships, even system defense craft carry weapon batteries which reach a minimum of 15,000 km. I have not seen the max ranges on the Vong weapons, but I do remember reading that they have trouble hitting beyond 100,000 meters, less than 1% the effective range of the smallest system defense ships.

Having a small minimum range is not so bad when the enemy can do nothing to stop you jumping right next to them

I will admit that the few books I read that dealt with the Vong so blinded me with rage that I remember very little. But to the best of my knowledge no one in the star wars universe has sensors or the accuracy when going FTL to pull this feat off. Even if the Vong do have such pin point accuracy with their jumps as to be able to jump within a thousand meters of a ship, they still rely on their sensors to gather their information, which can not detect a ship in open space at 12,000,000** meters away. An Imperial vessel can not only detect ships at this range, but can readily engage them.

**I remember reading this, but I do not remember where. am I mis-remembering something, and/or are Vong sensors far more powerful then I have been lead to believe?

The last is an issue of simple numbers. The Imperium thinks nothing of throwing a hundred million soldiers at a problem to make it go away. Star Wars fights with fighters in the squadrons, while 40k carriers and space stations carry spacecraft in the wings. Current terminology has squadrons of twelve, flights are five squadrons (total 60) and wings are six flights (for a total of 360 combat aircraft per wing), which Wars and 40k seem to follow.

I agree that Vong fighters are utterly outmatched by 40k ones, but the Vongs superior FTL means that they can send their whole fleet to take one world, and then arrive in minutes at another one when help is needed, whereas IOM reinforcements will take months to arrive. Quintessentially, they can counter individual 40k battlegroups with their races entire fleet, meaning they will take next to no losses. I agree that the fight on the ground will not go in the vong's favour, but they will have the ultimate high ground. After they have dispatched most of the IOM navy, they can take planets at their leisure.

First, the Vong have no idea where all the IoM worlds are,

Second, Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Vong population under 100 million or so? I seem to recall that they only had a handful of worldships, and those were dying on them. Their combat fleets numbered only a few hundred warships in total, the largest of which is the equivalent of a large 40k escort, none of which the IoM would consider capitol craft. What are they taking all of these worlds with? Even if every Vong soldier and pilot takes 1,000 of his IoM counterparts with him before he dies, that is still at worst case a sector or two that will fall before the Vong are killed off to a man-erm... Xenos.

To be honest, I've only read two NJO books (Rebel dream and the sequel). I was just rattling off the standard SW v 40k argument. TBH I had no idea the Vong were that pathetic.

[Dabat]

Ah, 40K is my specialty on this forum. I like them but I recognize their limitations. But I also realize their strengths, and anyone attempting to take out the IoM Needs to fight these strengths, namely numbers and time. Unless you can start killing off humans faster than we can breed, the IoM will drown you in medocracy. The Vong just do not have the numbers to pull this off.

And don't worry about being new to the debate. Everyone needs to learn sometimes, and there is no better way to learn then by jumping in with both feet.

[Sean0931]

Ah, 40K is my specialty on this forum. I like them but I recognize their limitations. But I also realize their strengths, and anyone attempting to take out the IoM Needs to fight these strengths, namely numbers and time. Unless you can start killing off humans faster than we can breed, the IoM will drown you in medocracy. The Vong just do not have the numbers to pull this off.

And don't worry about being new to the debate. Everyone needs to learn sometimes, and there is no better way to learn then by jumping in with both feet.

a word of advice. I know you had good intentions but try not to be so patronising, k? That's liable to provoke NERD RAGE in many (unstable) debaters. I'm not new to SW vs 40k debates, but i was never intrested in the vong enough to read any debates about them.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

I seem to remember the Vong throwing tens of thousands of ships at Coruscant alone, yet I could be misremembering....

*goes to check book*

No, I am not.

"The display image rotated ninety degrees, so that the main body of the comet cluster no hung along one side and the contacts were streaking horizontally across the screen. The counter at the bottom of the screen read in the tens of thousands and still rising."

The Yuuzhan Vong ships are swinging through the comet cluster for a run on Coruscant.
Much more than "a few hundred ships..."

[Dabat]

Hmm, interesting, I had stopped reading by that point, which book was that in? And were those contacts fighters, their space worms and/or locust thingies, transport ships, capitol ships or what? Because In a book which gave an overview of the NJO era, I do recall reading that the Vong only had a few hundred of their heavier, i.e. star destroyer size, ships.

Like I said to Sean, I could be mis-remembering things, but I don't think I am.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

The passage was from Star by Star. Page 400-something, can't remember at the moment.


That includes all analogs, yet no grutchins or space worms were used in that battle IIRC. Also, their fighter analogs are kept in pods on the exterior of the capital ships. I distinctly remember them giving the order to release coral skippers(the fighters) right before the NR opened fire on them. Which hadn't happened at this point.

So I do not believe that the coral skippers are counted in that total. Oddly enough wookieepedia DOES put the total at about one thousand ships, but the books themselves refute this. Also, one thousand ships couldn't possibly hold an entire galaxy, which the Yuuzhan Vong were very close to doing at one point.

Another thing to consider, the NR/GFFA took roughly 365 trillion(number taken from the unifying Force) casualties in the war. It seems impossible that the Yuuzhan Vong could cause this many casualties with a population of only 80 million or so, as stated in one of your posts. Remember, they were looking to take over the entire galaxy, and not just one planet, which would seem to imply a vast population. It IS true that most of their worldships were dying, but we are never given any kind of an idea of their numbers, so this does not mean that they have a small population.

[l33telboi]

I think they increased their numbers with time, because in one of the first three novels (can't remember which one) there's a strategy session and the New Republic is discussing how many ships the Vong had. It was estimated that they had around a thousand, and at this point the Republic still thought they could match the number, but that it would be a hard fight.

[Dabat]

Interesting. I am going to need to dig that book up again, I distinctly remember a few hundred capitol ships being stated.

IMO, the only way that 365 trillion casualty figure can be correct is if they included damn near everyone who died during that time. When i said I had been blinded by rage at the books of the Vong era (or whatever it is called) is not because of the Vong themselves (I actually thought they were interesting, if a little cliche), it was because the New Republic was acting like it wanted to LOSE the war. It seemed like when I was reading that every decision to come out of the senate was after a long deliberation of 'What is the worst possible thing we could possibly do at this time?' I have no doubt that the number of people hurt, malnurished or killed by the giant cocked up refugee exodus are included in that figure. As well as every single person the Senate abandoned when the Vong said 'We have enough, we are not going to attack anymore, we want peace' and them promptly exterminated everyone in the territory they already controlled. Or the rest of the people they let die by telling them to not resist or try to run instead of, oh, I don't know, use the resources of an entire frikken galaxy to build an army to fight back.

I am going to stop now, I am getting in on a rant . The Vong era is a real sore point with me and is why I stopped reading Star Wars books. Not because of the Vong themselves, but because of how the New Republic handled them at Every. Single. Fucking. Turn.



Buuut, while we are on the subject. How good are the Vong's sensors, in general I mean. I have totally forgotten, and that is one of the points that neither Sean or I knew (Read: remembered) much about. Anything you know about them would be useful.

[Dabat]

I think they increased their numbers with time, because in one of the first three novels (can't remember which one) there's a strategy session and the New Republic is discussing how many ships the Vong had. It was estimated that they had around a thousand, and at this point the Republic still thought they could match the number, but that it would be a hard fight.

I remember reading something like that too. I was in highschool at the time, and well... I kinda don't remember much of it. XD

But, seriously, I recall reading that. How their total capitol ships were numbered in the hundreds (which does include numbers over 1000, just to be clear). This is just capitol ships mind, obviously their total fleet is much larger. I also recall something about how the New Republic actually outnumbered them at this time, but their technological edge made them more then a match for the NR's fleet.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Yes, the senate was annoying. They did fuck up pretty bad.

All civilian deaths caused by the Vong are included in that number, but I believe only the deaths. Roughly one trillion, including military and civilian, came from Coruscant alone. But, even if we say that 99% of the deaths were civilian deaths, than the military casualties are still 3.65 trillion. If the the NR/GFFA took four times the casualties of the Vong, the Vong would still have suffered a little more than 912 billion military casualties.

The accuracy of the sensors are impossible to determine, because they work nothing like conventional sensors. The Vong ships are living, and are telepathic. The Vong sensors consist of insects(glow bugs, iirc) that are able to read the telepathic signals from the ship, and then arrange themselves into formations that resemble the sector. The range is unknown. The accuracy is unknown. It is directly affected by the ability of the individual ship. We know that Luke and some Jedi can feel specific people from across the galaxy, so if the ship was as adept in telepathy as the Jedi, then it is possible that they COULD jump right beside enemy ships. However, I find it unlikely.

l33talboi: If it was in one of the first three novels, then that number is completely moot. Those Vong were only a portion of the advanced invasion force. The Warmaster, Tsavong La, didn't arrive in the galaxy until book 6, and he commanded the vast majority of the Vong fleet. In fact, the Vong that fought in Vector Prime, the first novel, were only politicians, and not even of the warrior caste.

[Sean0931]

Maybe the few hundred to a thousand number is for worldships?

Also, the NJO series sucked, wheras the Thrawn books were excellent. They were the only SWW books that even came close to the better 40k books I've read (Early horus heresy novels, Space wolf series, Deus Sanguinius etc).