WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:20 pm

Mith wrote:Actually there was a recent thread involving 40k Titans and the Big O. Again, you had people masturbating to their megatons...but then oddly enough one debator came in and pointed out that the idea was absolutely absurd (shocking...isn' it?) and that the warship that the titans were hitting that apparently caused so much megatons was an old rusted junk bucket of a ship.

Other indications of firepower showed nothing more than simple mech capabilities, such as leveling blocks from battles, or some such. Some people tried to tie in 'enough firepower to destroy a city' to 'hive city', but I was able to smack it down. I also pointed out that destroy is actually a fairly vague term and wouldn't require even kilotons. A well placed volley from a half dozen or so Titans, spread out well enough, would certainly blast apart most small cities.
Yes, I've seen that one.
The part about the limitations of the computing power and automation abilities of Titans.
Reminds me of that quote that I have provided somewhere here, relative a naval engagement, where an IoM warship had to cut down some systems to allow its logic engines to calculate interception courses against missiles which themselves had quite a crappy aiming to begin with.
It's not exactly surprising either. What you're looking for is Tau or Eldar ships. The IoM is quite silly in several ways, notably in the way it builds its warships to load weapons.
It's just WTF. They prefer to waste slaves (see Cadian Blood) than having mechanized arms do the job, nevermind a potential rebellion, slaves getting corrupted by Chaos for whatever reason, slaves slipping and failing to load the massive Macro/Nova cannon shell in time, etc.
So it doesn't come as a surprise that Titans are built with a machine-spirit which is just such a punk to negotiate with, so much as to require the equivalent of a Mentat who can be driven mad or lose control altogether. Oh but the Titans have grown their own personality over time. And? So what?
Sure, and they say Stargate Lanteans were too dumb to make their AI bots so smart?
And of course the Mechanicus has never heard of the concept of purge, I suppose. But I guess there's another very good reason against that. You'd think that following the Iron Men rebellion, purging an AI would be as mundane as breathing air.
Especially with laws against sentient machines.
Seriously, the silly. It hurts.
It also evokes me one thing that quite perfectly suits this fact:

Image

Besides, I notice that there's been a *certain* revival in the creation of WH40K threads. You also always have those who claim silly firepower, but it's getting a bit more tame. There's also, unfortunately for SBC, less people actually willing to debate the firepower figures anytime they creep up.

That said, talking about Chaos corruption, there's quite a lot to write on that as well. The recent Borg in Wh40K thread, a typical vs thread, is just bloated with claims that mere thought of a desire will automatically allow one of those Chaos gods, Tzeentch, to corrupt anything remotely capable of thought.
You wonder how it is that Chaos hasn't yet converted of all humanity with such simple luring as proposing paradise - whatever your definition of it - to everyone.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:47 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, I've seen that one.
The part about the limitations of the computing power and automation abilities of Titans.
Reminds me of that quote that I have provided somewhere here, relative a naval engagement, where an IoM warship had to cut down some systems to allow its logic engines to calculate interception courses against missiles which themselves had quite a crappy aiming to begin with.
It's not exactly surprising either. What you're looking for is Tau or Eldar ships. The IoM is quite silly in several ways, notably in the way it builds its warships to load weapons.
It's just WTF. They prefer to waste slaves (see Cadian Blood) than having mechanized arms do the job, nevermind a potential rebellion, slaves getting corrupted by Chaos for whatever reason, slaves slipping and failing to load the massive Macro/Nova cannon shell in time, etc.
So it doesn't come as a surprise that Titans are built with a machine-spirit which is just such a punk to negotiate with, so much as to require the equivalent of a Mentat who can be driven mad or lose control altogether. Oh but the Titans have grown their own personality over time. And? So what?
Sure, and they say Stargate Lanteans were too dumb to make their AI bots so smart?
And of course the Mechanicus has never heard of the concept of purge, I suppose. But I guess there's another very good reason against that. You'd think that following the Iron Men rebellion, purging an AI would be as mundane as breathing air.
Especially with laws against sentient machines.
Seriously, the silly. It hurts.
It also evokes me one thing that quite perfectly suits this fact:
Indeed, they're making SW computers look straightforward and logical--and that in and of itself is a feat. I can't even get past the Iron Men rebellion. Maybe in the 90s that sounded cool and would work, but seriously, it's silly. Kill Switches. Hell, I Robot got it right with laws that are the three law thing that robots can't break. Granted, it didn't work out as intended, but it still worked.

The entire Iron Man thing is just retarded. Especially their response to it; never, ever use them again. It's almost as silly as the law forbidding genetic manipulation in Trek, but at least that one has some sort of viability to it (ie, ethical implications).
Besides, I notice that there's been a *certain* revival in the creation of WH40K threads. You also always have those who claim silly firepower, but it's getting a bit more tame. There's also, unfortunately for SBC, less people actually willing to debate the firepower figures anytime they creep up.
Because the mainstream debators don't want to get involved.

By the way, do you remember a quote refering to the Inquisition getting concerned about Space Marine fleet sizes? I remember reading it, but I can't find the quote and it's driving me nuts.=(

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:13 pm

Mith wrote:By the way, do you remember a quote refering to the Inquisition getting concerned about Space Marine fleet sizes? I remember reading it, but I can't find the quote and it's driving me nuts.=(
I know someone referred to such a fact in a recent WH40K thread, but the quote was not provided AFAIK. I don't remember which thread that was though.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:09 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The worlds of the AM produce many goods and other tools for the Imperium.
Some of their worlds are literally covered with factories.
To power them, they use fusion furnaces.
Most interesting is that when they can have access to something different, like geothermal energy, they go for it. A "Generator Vulcanis" makes good use of the "immense potential" of such an energy source to obtain gigawatts to nearby installations.
With this in mind, you can look a couple of posts up and re-read the part about the "Defence Laser".
It would require extremely generous assumptions to pretend that this weapon would manage to deliver even low petajoules to its target.
Technically, if we want to be quite nasty, such a weapon could be rated at several dozens or hundreds of gigawatts as a low end.
Err, actually, looking over some previous canon information, hundreds of gigawatts may not be out of the question. It depends on what they're using them for. For example, 418 GWs would be a fairly powerful weapon against a fighter or a bomber.

Against capital ships though...*cough* not likely.

EDIT: You could however, suggest hundreds of thousands of gigawatts. Going with more conservative yields on 40k lances from Shadowpoint, you could in fact, look at the issue of these being around say, 50 kiloton equal shots. That may not seem much, but it's still per second, so if they held the beam for say ten, you easily get .5 megatons. Holding it for twenty seconds is a megaton. And of course, if they were firing in concert, you could get much higher numbers.

I know it seems strange, but if we look at the quote where the authors are suggesting gigawatts for which ships defend against, they could be referencing hundreds of thousands of gigawatts and are just being vague. But that might be sorta grasping...

Odly enough, I keep finding that the Space Marine preview's nuclear blast is less and less. From what it appears to be (just by eyeing...I don't know how to capture the image or even what to measure it by if I did), it seems that even a few hundred kilotons could fill the role. Joe-4 for example, easily passed the cloud layer (about the same height as this one), the only difference being that this blast was brighter for what I believe was a longer period of time. The Joe-4's light seemed to die not long after the mushroom cloud formed, while the SM trailer shows that it stays for a bit longer...although I can't be sure. It could be due to angle.

Still, Joe-4 is 400 kilotons.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:40 am

Mith wrote:Err, actually, looking over some previous canon information, hundreds of gigawatts may not be out of the question. It depends on what they're using them for. For example, 418 GWs would be a fairly powerful weapon against a fighter or a bomber.
Overkill you mean.
Totally, totally. They wouldn't even need to use all the power. But notice that the heavy weapons used to defend cities could be used against Titans, and thus that much energy would prove very useful against those walkers.
Against capital ships though...*cough* not likely.

EDIT: You could however, suggest hundreds of thousands of gigawatts. Going with more conservative yields on 40k lances from Shadowpoint, you could in fact, look at the issue of these being around say, 50 kiloton equal shots. That may not seem much, but it's still per second, so if they held the beam for say ten, you easily get .5 megatons. Holding it for twenty seconds is a megaton. And of course, if they were firing in concert, you could get much higher numbers.
These weapons are very useful to protect worlds when the aggressor wants to capture it. It's made painfully clear in the BFG rulebook fluff that for tactical acquisition of targets, starships have to come close to the planet and fly in low orbit. Their own weapons are not as good as ACS planetary weapons. I have provided all these notes either in this thread or the 3rd/4th Editions thread. I consider that their firepower would be less effective if the enemy had no interest in capturing the planet. If only for the fact that there would be little defense against virus bombs shot from a long distance for example, safe from trying to shoot them down.
Now it's also the same book that says gigawatts are terrible levels of power...
I know it seems strange, but if we look at the quote where the authors are suggesting gigawatts for which ships defend against, they could be referencing hundreds of thousands of gigawatts and are just being vague. But that might be sorta grasping...
Yes, it would be required to take some liberties and accept that it could refer to tens of thousands of gigawatts. Of course from there, there's no real limit to how far you can push this logic. But at least it allows readers to circumvent the problem of having to take the value as a strict indication of the firepower range. That said, as I have shown, alien warships using natural stellar radiations to recharge themselves, probably over hours necessary to cross star systems, does indeed bring the charge levels in the terajoule range.
If in the activity of versus debating, the terajoule figures would be understood as the low ends, it's clear that the average would bring us in the megaton range, and from what I saw, not necessarily in the highest region.
Odly enough, I keep finding that the Space Marine preview's nuclear blast is less and less. From what it appears to be (just by eyeing...I don't know how to capture the image or even what to measure it by if I did), it seems that even a few hundred kilotons could fill the role. Joe-4 for example, easily passed the cloud layer (about the same height as this one), the only difference being that this blast was brighter for what I believe was a longer period of time. The Joe-4's light seemed to die not long after the mushroom cloud formed, while the SM trailer shows that it stays for a bit longer...although I can't be sure. It could be due to angle.

Still, Joe-4 is 400 kilotons.
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, namely the nuclear mushroom seen in a cutscene featuring Orks against SMs, then someone from SBC, most likely Ryan, tried to use this as some strong evidence, and it wasn't particularly hard to prove this person wrong. Probably in the thread where I got banned.
I think the argument was look at how powerful it must be since it goes that far up.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:18 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Overkill you mean.
...Yes.
Totally, totally. They wouldn't even need to use all the power. But notice that the heavy weapons used to defend cities could be used against Titans, and thus that much energy would prove very useful against those walkers.
True...but then I'd have to wonder how they'd be designed. Ie, cannons designed to strike at things in orbit would seem to be hard to aim at something on the ground.

And still, hundreds of gigawatts isn't something you want to toss around near a city.
These weapons are very useful to protect worlds when the aggressor wants to capture it. It's made painfully clear in the BFG rulebook fluff that for tactical acquisition of targets, starships have to come close to the planet and fly in low orbit. Their own weapons are not as good as ACS planetary weapons. I have provided all these notes either in this thread or the 3rd/4th Editions thread. I consider that their firepower would be less effective if the enemy had no interest in capturing the planet. If only for the fact that there would be little defense against virus bombs shot from a long distance for example, safe from trying to shoot them down.
Now it's also the same book that says gigawatts are terrible levels of power...
True, but you see, no one wants to look at that bit. ;p

Hmmm, still it is fairly low ball. More than I'm comfortable with.
Yes, it would be required to take some liberties and accept that it could refer to tens of thousands of gigawatts. Of course from there, there's no real limit to how far you can push this logic. But at least it allows readers to circumvent the problem of having to take the value as a strict indication of the firepower range. That said, as I have shown, alien warships using natural stellar radiations to recharge themselves, probably over hours necessary to cross star systems, does indeed bring the charge levels in the terajoule range.
If in the activity of versus debating, the terajoule figures would be understood as the low ends, it's clear that the average would bring us in the megaton range, and from what I saw, not necessarily in the highest region.
No, it isn't.
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, namely the nuclear mushroom seen in a cutscene featuring Orks against SMs, then someone from SBC, most likely Ryan, tried to use this as some strong evidence, and it wasn't particularly hard to prove this person wrong. Probably in the thread where I got banned.
I think the argument was look at how powerful it must be since it goes that far up.
I hope not. The Joe-4 went higher I think. The only problem is that the fireball's illumination stays longer than it would for a 400 kt bomb. But at most, the nukes aren't above 10 megatons.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:33 am

Here comes a quote recently found at SBC, which was used in a slightly different form against my arguments about the Nova cannon and the presence of mass lightening technology (MLT) in use inside the projectiles.

But before dicing the quotation, I'm going to make a point first.

My main argument behind the MLT was that the Nova projectiles in the BFG were described as generating a blast. They also were said to be packed with explosive. Thus there was no secret here that this device would produce an important amount of plasma upon detonation. As per the indication in the rules, the blast itself was perfectly omnidirectional, spherical.
It was most obvious that this represented a large problem when trying to mesh that with the idea of a projectile moving near c or at least at fractional speeds.
Hence why, among other things, I argued for MLT. The other reason was that the yields were absurd. Absurd because they didn't fit with all the observations of capital ships' firepower I went through, and because globally, all those claims of high gigatons or plus of firepower it made the Exterminati absolutely pointless and undereffective in destroying life in comparison, or even achieving proper destruction of burrowed targets.
That's a point that is constantly dismissed, largely because that alone, from the standpoint of pure logic, rejects the extravagant yields.

The description of a Nova projectile with a blasting warhead worked with Shadow Point. The BFG rulebook described it as releasing a force more potent than a dozen plasma bombs (and I already covered the firepower of such weapons, we're talking about melting city block).
It was objected that they're said to be implosion warheads, so there cannot be a blast. Although I thought it wasn't necessary, I still had to show that two seconds of Internet search for "implosion warhead" made that particular objection moot.
That said, it's the same BFG book which would speak about ships coping with gigawatts of energy and some ships carrying powerful weapons capable of reducing cities to plains of radioactive glass.

That was without counting on another source describing considerably different effects. Now, WH40K being what it is, besides contradictions between some sources, there's also the fact that each builder in a particular sector can have its own recipe. Variants in the STC and eventually old stocks of DAoT weapons can also considerably affect the nature of standards.

So now, let's look at the information which supposedly undermined my claim.
Quotation by Captain Orsai wrote: The principles of nova cannon technology are relatively simple.

Generators mounted in Depth of Fury's prow and the cannon itself charged up, creating a series of powerful magnetic fields. Teams of slaves in the prow work with great loading machinery to feed a specially prepared projectile - an implosion charge the size of a small building - into a great hallway known as the release chamber.

Bulkheads slam down as the nova cannon readies to fire. The firing mechanisms must be isolated from the rest of the ship, and it is rare that all slaves escape in time. As Depth of Fury thundered towards the Terminus Est, battered by the anger of a dozen lesser vessels, Straden demanded haste above all else. Hundreds of slaves and servitors were killed in the preparation even before the ship's destruction several minutes later.

Upon the order to fire, the magnetic fields accelerate the payload and hurl it from the fixed cannon at something approaching the speed of light. Then the time-consuming and dangerous reloading process takes place, and the cycle repeats.

The payload hurtles through space faster than the human eye (and indeed, most instruments of human design) can track. It is programmed not to implode within safe distance of the firing vessel; a nova cannon's destructive force is immense.

This failsafe can, of course, be overridden. In only a handful of minutes, it would be.

The projectile lanced across the distance between the two converging ships faster than the blink of an eye. Once it struck, it was programmed to implode, collapsing in on itself and achieving a density so intense that all nearby matter would be sucked inside it and compressed to practically nothingness.

This is how stars die.

And this is what hit the oncoming prow of the Terminus Est.

******

A sizeable chunk of the diseased ship simply ceased to exist, wrenched out of physicality and into nothingness. Consoles chattered and servitors grunted as Depth of Fury's bridge instruments registered the damage.

"Direct hit," said the lieutenant by the main weapons console.

Now the gangrenous ship was wounded. Detritus, mutated crew and shards of armoured hull span away into space, drifting from the gaping hole ripped in the prow of the oncoming Chaos warship. The blood Straden could see was a flood of dark droplets - some hideous fluid leaking from the wounded sections of hull, turning into glittering crimson crystals as they froze in space.

It began to rotate - a fat whale rolling to avert its face.

"She's hiding her bridge," Straden cursed.

"Sixteen per cent hull damage, captain. They're venting air pressure and ... and thousands of kilolitres of some kind of dark, organic fluid. Terminus Est is still coming."

Straden looked at the man as though he were the lowest form of idiot.

"Then, by the God-Emperor," he said, "you will fire again."
- Cadian Blood, pgs. 212-214
It doesn't fit well with the minimum distance description from the BFG rules. I know how relying on game mechanics is a risky method, but there is one thing to consider nonetheless: the fluff and other extensions of background material are supposed to fit with the adventure the players experience.
Coherency is a key issue, then.
Especially since it's usual to see claims that certain books are better because they've been written by the same people who write the fluff in the tabletop games' fluff.

In the game, a Nova shell has to implode at least 30 cm away from the firing ship, it's the minimum safe distance. I think it's been held that 10 cm was worth a thousand kilometers or something similar (but it could be just 1 cm, I'll check this out - I'll assume 10 cm for the moment).
That said, I'd have to check out if the blast marker itself was that huge.

Now, in Cadian Blood, absolutely all matter that is caught in the weapon's effect radius will be "sucked" and "compressed to practically nothingness".
This radius would obviously be of considerable size. Yet, only a fraction of the volume of the struck target suffers from such effects, and yet the Terminus Est only lost a small fraction of its volume. The Terminus Est took a second hit (not quoted here) on the underside and kept going on. A third shot was considered to have been disastrous by one of the Chaos ship's high ranking officers. Nevertheless, that such a ship, which inspired the Despoiler class, could be around 20 km long (arbitrary value) doesn't change anything. We're dealing with a limited radius weapon.
A very limited one.

Now of course, one could say OK, if we use the minimum safe distance as an indication of the device's power, then it has to be very powerful. However, with a radius in the multi-thousand kilometres, no figure is going to make sense. The blast of the weapon is supposed to be extremely dangerous, yet a radius of 3000 km would divide its yields (usual figure being 22 petatons) by no less than fourteen orders of magnitude. Now if you multiply the intensity by the exposed surface area of a 4 km long warship, you may reduce that to 7 orders of magnitude.
Of course it still means that your warships gets WTFpwned by 2.2 gigatons or so.

Then, if the true ratio is 1 cm = 1000 km, then the yield is divided by sixteen orders of magnitude. In other words, the ship is threatened by 22 megatons... and that's assuming, again, that the Nova shell's kinetic energy is 22 petatons and somehow manages to be directed omnidirectionally almost perfectly.

Besides, if void shields on warships are following the same rules as void shields on Titans, then we know that concentrated fired on a limited surface area is better. 22 MT, that's if you take into account the entire surface area. Then, amusingly, we find that with seven orders of magnitude removed since now we can look at firepower focused on a single point, gigawatt level weapons would effectively put a hole into a 4 km long warship's void shields. Gigawatts, as stated in the BFG manual (the obvious rationalization was to claim gigawatts per square meter and there we were done). Therefore long range lasers and other particle beams would be of limited efficiency as they'd fan out, no matter out. Projectile weapons would be far better, although they'd have to deal with the hull after piercing the shields. That said, we know that sometimes at some low speeds, void shields can be largely ignored.

Transcription from game rules obviously has limitations.
Both "Cadian Blood" and "Shadow Point" don't evoke rapeful radii for such a Nova shell. They are, at best, given the benefit of a minor area effect while largely being projectiles used by sniper guns in essence.

The other silly point of this is that this very small area Nova shell, as described in Cadian Blood, would actually do even less damage than a simple dumb projectile fired that fast. See, the device detonates on contact (don't even ask how the system that flies that fast could even react fast enough to the impact against a non-relativistic target). By detonating, it's actually showing it's a complex device, therefore not built as dense as possible, and then more fragile. It's also going to waste energy in a way or another.

Now, the description of the Nova cannon in Cadian Blood is most interesting.
The mechanism of the Nova shell in this case is that it creates something similar to a singularity. Matter simply is ripped apart and compressed into a minuscule volume. It is said to be how stars die, which can be understood as an indication that this shell somehow created a oddity very similar to a black hole. The "physics of a collapsing sun" are mentioned later on when the second Nova shell hits its target.
However, where does this solve the problem about the momentum?
Twice the Terminus Est is hit. Twice nothing is said about the ship having to cope with the sudden force.
If this fancy singularity weapon can nullify its momentum upon explosion.

But if such a weapon can do that, that is, play with mass and momentum, then was my claim of fancy technology at the core of the projectile a silly suggestion?
Doesn't' seem so.

Other notes:

It is revealed that the Dominator-class is shunned among captains of the Imperial Navy because of its... Nova cannon.
The Depth of Fury is 4 km long. A Nova shell could be loaded with 100 slaves remaining among the thousands present beforehand, and with those reduced numbers, they managed to prepare a final shot in under seven minutes.
Fired at close to the speed of light, the shot stopped the very crippled Depth of Fury in its tracks and sent it "veering to starboard, out of control." The ship's Navigation already was "fighting to keep the ship under control,"...

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:53 pm

Another quote taken from here (there's other stuff from "Iron Storm", which I tackled here).
Throne of Lies Audio Book Part 10: The Siege of Uriah III wrote: The siege of Uriah III would enter the annals of the Night Lords Legion for its significance, if not its duration. The fortress rising from the sides of the mountain was shielded from Orbital Bombardment with multi-layed void fields offering dense resistance to any assault from the skies.

As with many such defensive grids, the overlapping shields were considerably more vulnerable to an attack from the ground. Behind the marching warriors came entire battalions of legion warmachines, massive Land Raiders leading the way for the more compact Vindicator siege tanks, along with their Predator counter-parts.

Arrayed across ridges, nestled atop outcroppings and landed by Thunderhawk carriers along cliff edges, the Legions' armor battalions aimed cannons and turrets at the Fortress' walls. There was no heroic speech, no inspirational mantra. With a single word of order, the tanks opened fire as one, lighting the night with the brilliant flare of lascannon beams and incendiary bursts of demolisher turrets. In the shadows cast by the flickering shield and the storm of assaulting fire, Talos watched the siege begin in earnest.

Cyrian approached where he knelt on the lip of the cliff. "How long you think they can keep us out?"

Talos lowered his bolter, no longer looking through the gun sight. The fortress itself was blurred behind a mirage of wavering air, a haze that gave off no heat. The void shield distorted the view of what lay behind it, reducing the battlements to uneven silhouettes. "We've over 500 tanks at the walls. This firepower would cripple an Imperator in a heartbeat. Blood of the father Cyrian, we've not gathered this much armour in one place since the Siege of Terra!"

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Lucky » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:04 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Another quote taken from here (there's other stuff from "Iron Storm", which I tackled here).
Throne of Lies Audio Book Part 10: The Siege of Uriah III wrote: The siege of Uriah III would enter the annals of the Night Lords Legion for its significance, if not its duration. The fortress rising from the sides of the mountain was shielded from Orbital Bombardment with multi-layed void fields offering dense resistance to any assault from the skies.

As with many such defensive grids, the overlapping shields were considerably more vulnerable to an attack from the ground. Behind the marching warriors came entire battalions of legion warmachines, massive Land Raiders leading the way for the more compact Vindicator siege tanks, along with their Predator counter-parts.

Arrayed across ridges, nestled atop outcroppings and landed by Thunderhawk carriers along cliff edges, the Legions' armor battalions aimed cannons and turrets at the Fortress' walls. There was no heroic speech, no inspirational mantra. With a single word of order, the tanks opened fire as one, lighting the night with the brilliant flare of lascannon beams and incendiary bursts of demolisher turrets. In the shadows cast by the flickering shield and the storm of assaulting fire, Talos watched the siege begin in earnest.

Cyrian approached where he knelt on the lip of the cliff. "How long you think they can keep us out?"

Talos lowered his bolter, no longer looking through the gun sight. The fortress itself was blurred behind a mirage of wavering air, a haze that gave off no heat. The void shield distorted the view of what lay behind it, reducing the battlements to uneven silhouettes. "We've over 500 tanks at the walls. This firepower would cripple an Imperator in a heartbeat. Blood of the father Cyrian, we've not gathered this much armour in one place since the Siege of Terra!"
The green part while interesting, and makes an Imperator sound weak, is kind of vague. How many shots would it take for the five hundred tanks to cripple an Imperator, and what weapons did/do the tanks have?

I don't think we can take in a heart beat literally.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:11 am

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Another quote taken from here (there's other stuff from "Iron Storm", which I tackled here).
Throne of Lies Audio Book Part 10: The Siege of Uriah III wrote: The siege of Uriah III would enter the annals of the Night Lords Legion for its significance, if not its duration. The fortress rising from the sides of the mountain was shielded from Orbital Bombardment with multi-layed void fields offering dense resistance to any assault from the skies.

As with many such defensive grids, the overlapping shields were considerably more vulnerable to an attack from the ground. Behind the marching warriors came entire battalions of legion warmachines, massive Land Raiders leading the way for the more compact Vindicator siege tanks, along with their Predator counter-parts.

Arrayed across ridges, nestled atop outcroppings and landed by Thunderhawk carriers along cliff edges, the Legions' armor battalions aimed cannons and turrets at the Fortress' walls. There was no heroic speech, no inspirational mantra. With a single word of order, the tanks opened fire as one, lighting the night with the brilliant flare of lascannon beams and incendiary bursts of demolisher turrets. In the shadows cast by the flickering shield and the storm of assaulting fire, Talos watched the siege begin in earnest.

Cyrian approached where he knelt on the lip of the cliff. "How long you think they can keep us out?"

Talos lowered his bolter, no longer looking through the gun sight. The fortress itself was blurred behind a mirage of wavering air, a haze that gave off no heat. The void shield distorted the view of what lay behind it, reducing the battlements to uneven silhouettes. "We've over 500 tanks at the walls. This firepower would cripple an Imperator in a heartbeat. Blood of the father Cyrian, we've not gathered this much armour in one place since the Siege of Terra!"
The green part while interesting, and makes an Imperator sound weak, is kind of vague. How many shots would it take for the five hundred tanks to cripple an Imperator, and what weapons did/do the tanks have?

I don't think we can take in a heart beat literally.
It would certainly fit with former and yet generous calculations of continuous bombardment over 5 to 10 minutes. That's quite a stretch for a heartbeat. Most tanks have relatively conventional firepower.
Few variants carry anti-Titan weapons, and they still require other units working in conjunction to weaken the Titan before the anti-Titan gun can deal a crippling blow, generally in some exposed and fragile section.
It would still point to something either in the mid to high gigajoule tier, or the low to, at best, mid kiloton region if you push all favorable parameters to their maximum.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:28 am

Another Exterminatus video, from Dawn of War II: Retribution, for which it will, again, take ages to make hammies realize that warships are hundreds of kilometers long.
Thank you for making such horribly scaled cutscenes guys, it makes dismissing them much easier.
Such was already the case with Firewarrior.
Heck, the impact seen from the ground is nowhere near what we're supposed to believe is the same explosion seen from space a few seconds later: from the surface, you have some kind of speeded up multi-kiloton blast which a fireball mushroom that immediately begins to cool down and will obviously not even reach the cloud layer, and just before the camera cuts to space, the ground obviously begins to crack.
Also thanks the fact that in WH40K, this unique bomb could be a Dark Age of Technology thing, extremely super duper rare and all that (there are such devices that could be counted on the fingers of one hand missing several of them).
Besides, the damage done by that single weapon ranks beyond the damage done a good number of other Exterminati achieved by exterminators (ships specially equipped to achieve an Exterminatus).
Oh, and they need an obvious chain reaction weapon (again) to glass a planet. Something which would be truly pointless with weapons in the multi-teraton and petaton range (such as silly calcs done for Nova cannons). Especially when you realize that the time needed for that missile to actually fly through the atmosphere would be more than enough for teraton mass drivers and lances to actually achieve just as much destruction.
I'm surprised they didn't make the planet explode.
Finally, despite firing at something in the middle of nowhere, a weapon which will build up a gigantic wall of fire that cracks the crust, they need the entire length of that trailer to get a lock. I guess the planet wasn't big enough, they may actually miss it.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:08 am

I found L33telboi's suggestion at SBC interesting. He says that the final missile is used to ignite the planet while it's already been prepared beforehand through a constant bombardment of virus bomb, the stuff that eats biomatter and produces volatile gases.
The problem with that is that first, gases wouldn't crack the planet like it's seen to happen, and secondly, a simple lance strike would have been faster and saved them one missile.

Oh, and since the scales are completely fucked up, anyone who:

1. is honest.
2. wants to take the visuals at face value.

... will have to accept the fact that the planets fired at in both the Firewarrior cutscene and in DoW Retribution are small dwarf planets.

If these people don't, then you can literally ignore the entire scene, because there's no reason we'd accept some convenient cherry picking.
You'll just have to assume that those two worlds have incredibly dense cores.
Mind you, stupid planets already exist in WH40K. It's not the first time you've heard of planets exploding on their own for all reasons raping basic physics.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Dabat » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:25 am

I am back again after a fairly long absence.

Mr. Oragahn, you and I have had words about this very topic before, I am an avid fan of the 40k-verse, more so than my other sci-fi loves (including both trek and wars). One can even go so far as to call me a 40k scholar, as I tend to know nearly everything there is to know about the setting... That said, I am not an avid defender of the 40k-verse, nor am I an avid defender of most fandoms, as those who defend them tend to turn their defenses into simple pissing contests of who could beat who.

I have no real problem with most of your calculations, there are a few I disagreed with in catching up with this thread (tho mostly I was far more with you than I was with the guys on SDN), but few were major enough for me to even remember them as I am writing this post.

For example, I have no problem with titan weapons being rated in the single, deci or low hectotons; nor do I have a problem with starship weapons mostly being rated in the range of the mid-high hecto to high kilotons (with low megatons being on the outside). Why? Because for those of us who live in the real world, those numbers are still a fucking lot.

It seems to me that a lot of debaters have lost sight of anything coming close to reality-as-presented-in-X-verse and have instead devolved into I want X to be able to beat Y. My problem with that virtural masturbation is that it ends up being as much of an insult to the creators of the very topic the person is 'defending' as it is to the people they are blasting on whatever medium they are communicating through.

I am not entirely sure where I am going with this anymore, but I think I got my point across.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Mith » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:41 am

Dabat wrote:I am back again after a fairly long absence.

Mr. Oragahn, you and I have had words about this very topic before, I am an avid fan of the 40k-verse, more so than my other sci-fi loves (including both trek and wars). One can even go so far as to call me a 40k scholar, as I tend to know nearly everything there is to know about the setting... That said, I am not an avid defender of the 40k-verse, nor am I an avid defender of most fandoms, as those who defend them tend to turn their defenses into simple pissing contests of who could beat who.

I have no real problem with most of your calculations, there are a few I disagreed with in catching up with this thread (tho mostly I was far more with you than I was with the guys on SDN), but few were major enough for me to even remember them as I am writing this post.

For example, I have no problem with titan weapons being rated in the single, deci or low hectotons; nor do I have a problem with starship weapons mostly being rated in the range of the mid-high hecto to high kilotons (with low megatons being on the outside). Why? Because for those of us who live in the real world, those numbers are still a fucking lot.
I wouldn't think they'd go as low as hectotons. They're probably in the tons range at least, more than likely kiloton to possibly megatons.

And yes, at SDN and SB.com, you have people who either have absolutely no idea what sort of concept they're talking about (ie, Ricrery1, the guy who basically claimed that physics was wrong in its application of science) and people like rabbit or leo1 who know better, but simply want their retarded fanboy numbers.

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Re: WH40K - 40K misc numbers... (SDN)

Post by Dabat » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:49 am

Mith wrote:
Dabat wrote:I am back again after a fairly long absence.

Mr. Oragahn, you and I have had words about this very topic before, I am an avid fan of the 40k-verse, more so than my other sci-fi loves (including both trek and wars). One can even go so far as to call me a 40k scholar, as I tend to know nearly everything there is to know about the setting... That said, I am not an avid defender of the 40k-verse, nor am I an avid defender of most fandoms, as those who defend them tend to turn their defenses into simple pissing contests of who could beat who.

I have no real problem with most of your calculations, there are a few I disagreed with in catching up with this thread (tho mostly I was far more with you than I was with the guys on SDN), but few were major enough for me to even remember them as I am writing this post.

For example, I have no problem with titan weapons being rated in the single, deci or low hectotons; nor do I have a problem with starship weapons mostly being rated in the range of the mid-high hecto to high kilotons (with low megatons being on the outside). Why? Because for those of us who live in the real world, those numbers are still a fucking lot.
I wouldn't think they'd go as low as hectotons. They're probably in the tons range at least, more than likely kiloton to possibly megatons.

And yes, at SDN and SB.com, you have people who either have absolutely no idea what sort of concept they're talking about (ie, Ricrery1, the guy who basically claimed that physics was wrong in its application of science) and people like rabbit or leo1 who know better, but simply want their retarded fanboy numbers.

While I would like to say they are all in the Megatons, most of the fluff doesn't hold up to it. The most powerful weapons, the main batteries on battleships as well as lances and the like, are almost certainly in the megaton range. But I doubt all of them are.

P.S. 'Hecto' means 'hundreds of', so a hectoton is a hundred tons; which is still above our most powerful non-nuclear explosives. While this may not seem like much in the debate world, anything which cam pump out that kind of energy at will will pretty much eat any real world army alive.

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