Imperium vs. the United Federation of Planets

[Mith]

as for Fire power if we're not applying the strict adherence to SB style hate on trek weaponry..I'd say based on the feds consistent high end showings come close to Imperial weaponry (then again those continent sized flower blossom looking fire balls I read in one novel quote sound rather sick)

Not as much as you might think. That description was rather flowery...it really told anyone little more than either numerous fireballs or large scale firestorms. As per firepower, arguments could be made either way on either side being of any degree--however, I do believe we have a thread in this section discussing that bit.

To be blunt; the Imperium doesn't come out ahead. Trek does.

what's Imperial fleet numbers what's the industry like?? because superior fire power only matters if you can one shot all of your enemies...and they don't have anything that can hurt you..or only damage you slightly..

Hmmm, I believe we had some work done on this earlier, but we're looking at something in the order of at least around a hundred thousand ships, possibly more. Starfleet has anything from 30,000 to perhaps 50,000 (high end) ships under her flag, though technically you could claim over 70,000 given the NCC numbers.

Here:

IMPERIAL SPACESHIPS

The whole structure of the Imperium is founded upon the craft that transport its armies and officials across the galaxy. It is the fleets that carry vital food to the starving hive-worlds, and which bring technology and equipment to the agricultural planets. Without its fleets the Imperium would soon collapse and humanity would perish in many parts of the galaxy.

Interstellar craft may be privately owned but most operate on behalf of one of the Imperial organisations. Of these, the Imperial Fleet is the largest, numbering tens of thousands of warships and hundreds of thousands of cargo vessels of varying sizes.

Tens of thousands of warships and hundreds of thousands of cargo vessels. That gives us a rough area of 20,000 to 90,000 ships. Taking the middle road, that's 45,000 warships, say 500,000 cargo vessels, and going with the idea of the 1,000 chapters of the Space Marines (3 barges, 8 strike cruisers, and a dozen escorts per chapter) is 23,000, though we'll go with 30,000 for chapters with larger fleets.

So
Imperial Navy Warships: 45,000
Space Marine Chapters: 30,000
Total Warships: 75,000

Just as a side not:
Low end: 50,000
High end: 120,000

Our is just in the middle of it. That's more or less comparable to Starfleet's more or less confirmed 10,000 per the show, 30,000 suggested by the writers and the NCC numbers, though it could easily reach to 40,000 or 45,000 itself. Though I'm sure only 30,000 of those are actual warships.

In short, any war between these two powers is going to be long and exhausting for both forces. It would take decades, perhaps a century for the Imperium to gather a crusade of significant numbers to wage war upon any significant area of the Federation--and Starfleet, even limited with Voyager warp speed limitations, would be able to respond faster and more effectively than the Imperium. Ie, it would take Starfleet at most ten years from the farthest reaches of their territory to gather the full size of their fleet as opposed to the Imperium.

And keep in mind that both forces would be expending considerable power here; Starfleet would need the bulk of its fleet to fight off the Imperium true, but the Imperium would need to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of planets in some fashion or another in order to invest itself in a large scale war with the Federation--and it would require that Starfleet doesn't get any assistance from any other nearby power.

Meanwhile, in any realistic simulation, the Orks are rampaging through Imperial space, the Eldar are undermining them, the Tau are slowly covering more Imperial worlds in their alien beliefs, traitor legions are raiding entire solar systems without reprisal, and a massive Tyranid fleet is making a beeline through underguarded Imperial territory towards Holy Terra.

In short, it can't happen. The Imperium would devistate itself in launching a massive campaign against the Federation. They could start a slow war and build up to it--perhaps even summoning 10,000 ships to fight against the UFP as they did in another crusade--but even then that's still not enough to take and hold the Federation and it's still going to take time to gather that many ships and forces.

Of course, the UFP can't respond either since their FTL is far too slow to launch any real offensive against the Imperium, but so long as they can wait and develop their FTL take for a few decades--then they will be able to handle the Imperium.

[Admiral Breetai]

Not as much as you might think. That description was rather flowery...it really told anyone little more than either numerous fireballs or large scale firestorms. As per firepower, arguments could be made either way on either side being of any degree--however, I do believe we have a thread in this section discussing that bit.

I suppose so but that quote impressed me

To be blunt; the Imperium doesn't come out ahead. Trek does.

so it's quality vs quantity you feel?

Hmmm, I believe we had some work done on this earlier, but we're looking at something in the order of at least around a hundred thousand ships, possibly more. Starfleet has anything from 30,000 to perhaps 50,000 (high end) ships under her flag, though technically you could claim over 70,000 given the NCC numbers.

I mean it's worth noting this was a number fielded at the end of an exhausting war the Feds could likely field far larger numbers..and likely did so through out the war-one of the problems I've always had with ST though is how long it seems to train officers..and how long they serve at one post

Here:

IMPERIAL SPACESHIPS

The whole structure of the Imperium is founded upon the craft that transport its armies and officials across the galaxy. It is the fleets that carry vital food to the starving hive-worlds, and which bring technology and equipment to the agricultural planets. Without its fleets the Imperium would soon collapse and humanity would perish in many parts of the galaxy.

Interstellar craft may be privately owned but most operate on behalf of one of the Imperial organisations. Of these, the Imperial Fleet is the largest, numbering tens of thousands of warships and hundreds of thousands of cargo vessels of varying sizes.

Tens of thousands of warships and hundreds of thousands of cargo vessels. That gives us a rough area of 20,000 to 90,000 ships. Taking the middle road, that's 45,000 warships, say 500,000 cargo vessels, and going with the idea of the 1,000 chapters of the Space Marines (3 barges, 8 strike cruisers, and a dozen escorts per chapter) is 23,000, though we'll go with 30,000 for chapters with larger fleets.

So
Imperial Navy Warships: 45,000
Space Marine Chapters: 30,000
Total Warships: 75,000

Just as a side not:
Low end: 50,000
High end: 120,000

Our is just in the middle of it. That's more or less comparable to Starfleet's more or less confirmed 10,000 per the show, 30,000 suggested by the writers and the NCC numbers, though it could easily reach to 40,000 or 45,000 itself. Though I'm sure only 30,000 of those are actual warships.

that's impressive though I wonder how many ships a balls to the wall fed industry could field
[

In short, any war between these two powers is going to be long and exhausting for both forces. It would take decades, perhaps a century for the Imperium to gather a crusade of significant numbers to wage war upon any significant area of the Federation--and Starfleet, even limited with Voyager warp speed limitations, would be able to respond faster and more effectively than the Imperium. Ie, it would take Starfleet at most ten years from the farthest reaches of their territory to gather the full size of their fleet as opposed to the Imperium.

is fielding a chintoka type defense platform doable for the feds? I mean if the damn Cardassians could

And keep in mind that both forces would be expending considerable power here; Starfleet would need the bulk of its fleet to fight off the Imperium true, but the Imperium would need to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of planets in some fashion or another in order to invest itself in a large scale war with the Federation--and it would require that Starfleet doesn't get any assistance from any other nearby power.

I wonder if they could isolate or deny warp travel in Fed space some how..I mean the necrons came close to technobabbling it away

Meanwhile, in any realistic simulation, the Orks are rampaging through Imperial space, the Eldar are undermining them, the Tau are slowly covering more Imperial worlds in their alien beliefs, traitor legions are raiding entire solar systems without reprisal, and a massive Tyranid fleet is making a beeline through underguarded Imperial territory towards Holy Terra.

Fed science vs ork spores...and borg nanites vs tyranid hive ships i wonder..

In short, it can't happen. The Imperium would devistate itself in launching a massive campaign against the Federation. They could start a slow war and build up to it--perhaps even summoning 10,000 ships to fight against the UFP as they did in another crusade--but even then that's still not enough to take and hold the Federation and it's still going to take time to gather that many ships and forces.

they'd leave it alone then?

Of course, the UFP can't respond either since their FTL is far too slow to launch any real offensive against the Imperium, but so long as they can wait and develop their FTL take for a few decades--then they will be able to handle the Imperium.

to be fair per EOS voyager how long before the fleet has QSD? or some transwarp variant

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm not expert on Warhammer (not only I'm not expert, but my knowledge is very limited) but from little I know about IoM, Imperium defeats Federation... if it notices it... and if Federation does not develop too much during time it takes Imperium to discover it, organize expedition and for expedition to finally arrive.

EDIT: It seems that ships can travel throught warp at most 50 000 ly from Terra. Farther away, Astronomician cannot guide them, and they are limited to 4-5 ly per jump.

If the Imperium were to knock on the UFP's door with its full military might at once, there's clearly little chance for the UFP to manage anything unless the IoM can't move fast at FTL and thus is forced to settle on some planets to resupply, establish beachheads and defend them. If so, then a scorched Earth strategy would be the UFP's best chance in order to put the IoM's advance to a halt, but the IoM would obviously come with its own logistics, stretching resupply lines (fuel, weapons and food) between both galaxies (in a typical linking-singularity scenario). It clearly has enough cargo to do so, and considering how the IoM crews live, they don't really "need" to take a breath on some luxurious peaceful planet. They actually better never do that, otherwise they'd never really manage to accept their condition.

Many Imperial warships are vastly bigger than UFP ships, and thus likely to present more total firepower. That said, there's a large amount of IoM ships which aren't FTL capable, so those would have to be counted out, but it doesn't really matter, because they're often treated as a supplementary local force.

It's possible that the UFP would have to force the Borg to get interested in the IoM mega fleet, which is not a given if there's not much juicy tech to get there, and they'd have to call for all potential allies, even yesterday enemies. But clearly, in such a scenario, the UFP would not be able to deal with the IoM alone, it would be crushed, even if slowly.

There would be no possibility for the IoM humans to even be teased by the real face of peace without the fear of Chaos. OK, the most favourable scenario for the IoM assumes that the Warp is everywhere in the ST Milky Way, and also assumes that the Astronomican manages to cast its light with the guidance of the God Emperor well beyond its already limited range (75,000 LY from Terra).
If it were not the case, if such a psychi light wasn't there, if the presence of the Emperor could not be felt, you could think Astropaths and other psykers would feel the emptiness and be forced to reconsider their position. Desperation, then hope of living in a less decrepit galaxy. That said, they'd have to live on their own planets, because they would not feel at east with those billions of blanks populating the UFP.

I'm not expert on Warhammer (not only I'm not expert, but my knowledge is very limited) but from little I know about IoM, Imperium defeats Federation... if it notices it... and if Federation does not develop too much during time it takes Imperium to discover it, organize expedition and for expedition to finally arrive.

EDIT: It seems that ships can travel throught warp at most 50 000 ly from Terra. Farther away, Astronomician cannot guide them, and they are limited to 4-5 ly per jump.

Given that the Astromonicon is located on Earth (excuse me, Terra), and stretches almost all the way to the Eastern Fringe (and can be sensed outside the MW, just not by the IoM) virtually the entire galaxy is within it's reach.

Not exactly. It can be sensed out of the MW on the Terran side of the galaxy (Pacificus side). The Ultima Segmentum is pretty much the end of it, and it's particularly hard to get to the most distant worlds of it, making the Eastern Fringe, still a significant section of the galaxy, literally out of convenient reach of the Astronomican.

the 900 billion figure was strictly Federation casualties iirc Sisko and SFC had no sway over whether or not the roms or klingons surrendered..so I'm willing to bet te feds have a trillion maybe two population...humans would have to be a decent number of that too or Fleet command and the fed council would of shat itself on the prospect of the extinction of one of the founding members, and sued.

The 900 billion can easily be a cumulative casualties figure. It never meant, for sure, that 900 bn was the population of the UFP at a given time. Very few planets reach in the billion range, most of them being colonies of varying age. The only table turner is that cramped planet with a population of many billions.

as for Fire power if we're not applying the strict adherence to SB style hate on trek weaponry..I'd say based on the feds consistent high end showings come close to Imperial weaponry (then again those continent sized flower blossom looking fire balls I read in one novel quote sound rather sick)

It's only fires spreading across a continent. Notice that said flames are also described as being stuck beneath the cloud layer. A *little detail* often kept out. I think this comes from "Xenos" or "Eisenhorn".
It's dealt with in the misc numbers thread here (the one that's regularly bumped).


@ Mith


Hey, now that you're posting again and I'm getting your attention, did you get my PMs?
I can't tell if the PM system here works or not, and your SBC box is completely full (you know, they have a save PMs function over there, it works well, but you have to open your PMs directly into some text app or Excel, cause saving the PMs as files doesn't work).

[Mith]

@Oraghan

Hmm, I'll have to check, but I'm going to be leaving for work soon, so maybe afterwards.

I suppose so but that quote impressed me

As Oraghan mentioned, it stayed below the cloud layer. High kiloton or low megaton would exceed the cloud layer.

so it's quality vs quantity you feel?

Sorta, it's more of a case of durability.

I mean it's worth noting this was a number fielded at the end of an exhausting war the Feds could likely field far larger numbers..and likely did so through out the war-one of the problems I've always had with ST though is how long it seems to train officers..and how long they serve at one post

Their officers are also typically scientist, historians, geologists, and so forth. It's just as much as a college education as it is military training--more so really. They do have enlisted personel though, but it seems most prefer to become an officer.

that's impressive though I wonder how many ships a balls to the wall fed industry could field

We wouldn't know. They apparently had a hard time keeping up with the Dominion during the war, but apparently the Dominion fleet struck them hard and they had to rebuild their ship yards. Keep in mind while the Imperium not having a vastly higher fleet sounds strange, they're also engaged in constant warefare on numerous fronts. Starfleet is not. The Imperium's industrail capabilities are probably ten to a hundred times greater than the UFP.

is fielding a chintoka type defense platform doable for the feds? I mean if the damn Cardassians could

Probably, though maybe not via the network they had and probably with a more limited torpedo count (keep in mind the Cardassians had Dominion technology to enhance their own for that project). Though I'm sure the UFP has some formidable defense systems. Keep in mind that in the 22nd century, some terrorists used one of Mars's arrays to visibly crack Luna and was able to hit a starship at 100,000 km.

I wonder if they could isolate or deny warp travel in Fed space some how..I mean the necrons came close to technobabbling it away

Well, if you were to suggest that subspace is really just a buffer between the warp or another name for it--possibly. Otherwise it could take years for them to find a way to block it. The Borg might though, simply due to their own hive mind capabilities.

Fed science vs ork spores...and borg nanites vs tyranid hive ships i wonder..

I'd give it to the Borg. The Tyranids may be good at adaptation, but the Borg's technology is probably far quicker in adaptation.

they'd leave it alone then?

Hell no. The UFP is a massive source of heresy, the Inquisition alone would scream itself hoarse for their extermination. Most likely they'd send a few hundred ships to try and tame the UFP or at least establish a foothold. It would likely erupt into a long term war as both sides try and get as manyships to the invaded area.

The downside is that the Imperium contains a massive FTL advantage. At best, probably while pushing high warp, the UFP ships move at 1,000c. Imperium FTL ranges from 2,000c to 12,000c. Even the middle of the road route is 6,000c, over 6x faster than UFP fleets will be able to move. If the Imperium plays it smart, they can keep the majority of the UFP pinned down while they invade.

However, it does seem that the UFP has a means of moving their ships quickly through their own charted space, via the subspace highway theory. That still limits the UFP's response times, as these would probably only act as major roads to allow for ships to move to certain corners, but it'll keep the Imperium from completely dominating the field.

to be fair per EOS voyager how long before the fleet has QSD? or some transwarp variant

Canon wise? We don't know. Ships with that sorta speed are only seen by future UFP ships, presumably from the 29th century. But their FTL is on the other side of the spectrum; they can literally move across time and space in a blink of an eye. If I had to guess, probably a decade before they get the prototype for the fleet--possibly two or three decades before it becomes widely used by Starfleet proper.

[User1390]

"Sorta, it's more of a case of durability."

do yto mean that trek are more durable or imperium ?

[Mith]

"Sorta, it's more of a case of durability."

do yto mean that trek are more durable or imperium ?

Well, I would suspect that the Imperium is more durable for the simple fact that it goes through a great deal more wars than the UFP has--not to mention its extensive age despite that. However, what I mean is that the side that can outlast the other will win. This is why, on a one on one fight with no other enemies to face them, the Imperium would win easily in terms of fleet size; what holds it back has been removed.

If we go with as is though, which I tend to favor in debates, then both sides really can't fight well against the other. The Imperium can't summon the force to fully take the UFP because it simply can't summon 66.67% of its fleet just to match the UFP fleet and survive; their entire Empire would literally collapse. Therefore, the only means to which either side can win is through endurance. Ie, the Imperium needs to continue assaulting UFP holdings while they slowly build up the fleet that they need to deal serious damage--and eventually overwhelm the Federation. Starfleet on the other hand has to endure war for decades until their technological abilities in FTL expand to the point that they can start striking back at the Imperium. And then they have the problem of taking out the Imperium or forcing them to a truce, since a proper invasion would require hundreds of thousands of ships from the UFP--something that will require hundreds of years for them to obtain.