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Narsil
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Post by Narsil » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:53 pm

I'm reading for a BA in English Literature and that passage says to me the trip took a moment, not that time was dilated. If the author had intended for time dilation, there would very probably have been more of an indication of such.

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Post by GStone » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:07 am

In the novel, in the section for the fleet jumping to endor, it says "and disappearing in the flash of a muon". A muon decays in a couple microseconds, giving off an electron with a maximum of 50MeV. So, we have two choices. Either Wars ships actually shrink in size or the section above is colorful language for the fast transition speed from real space to hyperspace.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:51 am

Narsil wrote:[...] A moment is defined by historically as a minute and thirty seconds (longer term, the shorter term is seventy-two seconds) [...]
Please give a source for that claim.
    • Webster's Online Dictionary:
      • Moment
        • Noun
          1. A particular point in time; "the moment he arrived the party began".
          2. An indefinitely short time; "wait just a moment"; "it only takes a minute"; "in just a bit".
          3. At this time; "the disappointments of the here and now"; "she is studying at the moment".
          4. Having important effects or influence; "decisions of great consequence are made by the president himself"; "virtue is of more moment that security".
          5. The moment of a couple is the product of its force and the distance between its opposing forces.
          6. The n-th moment of a distribution is the expected value of the n-th power of the deviations from a fixed value.
    • Merriam Webster Online:
      • Pronunciation: \ˈmō-mənt\
        Function: noun
        Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin momentum movement, particle sufficient to turn the scales, moment, from movēre to move
        Date: 14th century

        1 a:
        • a minute portion or point of time : instant
        1 b:
        • a comparatively brief period of time
        2 a:
        • present time <at the moment she is working on a novel>


        2 b:
        • a time of excellence or conspicuousness <he has his moments>
        3:
        • importance in influence or effect <a matter of great moment>
        4 obsolete :
        • a cause or motive of action
        5:
        • a stage in historical or logical development
        6 a:
        • tendency or measure of tendency to produce motion especially about a point or axis
        6 b:
        • the product of quantity (as a force) and the distance to a particular axis or point
        7 a:
        • the mean of the nth powers of the deviations of the observed values in a set of statistical data from a fixed value
        7 b:
        • the expected value of a power of the deviation of a random variable from a fixed value
These dictionaries don't seem to have heard of your definition. And in German, we have the same word, but it has not the definiton you claim, that it shoud have. And even if there would be a source that could confirm your claim, why should we assume, that the word was used, thinking at your definition and not at the common definition. After all, it is indisputable, that the fleet has not arrived only one minute and thirty seconds after Leia has said, that the fleet will arrive any moment.

Besides, that Leia has not said, the fleet will arrive this moment or the next moment, but any moment.
    • Webster's Online Dictionary:
      • Any
        • Adjective
          1. One or some or every or all without specification; "give me any peaches you don't want"; "not any milk is left"; "any child would know that"; "pick any card"; "any day now"; "cars can be rented at almost any airport"; "at twilight or any other time"; "beyond any doubt"; "need any help we can get"; "give me whatever peaches you don't want"; "no milk whatsoever is left".
          2. (in negative statements) either every little or very great but unspecified; "can't stand any noise"; "could not endure chemotherapy for any length of time".
          • Adverb
            1. To any degree or extent; "it isn't any better".
    • Merriam Webster Online:
      • Pronunciation: \ˈe-nē\
        Function: adjective
        Etymology: Middle English, from Old English ǣnig; akin to Old High German einag any, Old English ān one — more at one
        Date: before 12th century

        1:
        • one or some indiscriminately of whatever kind:

        • 1 a:
          • one or another taken at random <ask any man you meet>
          1 b:
          • every —used to indicate one selected without restriction <any child would know that>
        2: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity:
        • 2 a:
          • one or more —used to indicate an undetermined number or amount <have you any money>
          2 b:
          • all —used to indicate a maximum or whole <needs any help he can get>
          2 c:
          • a or some without reference to quantity or extent <grateful for any favor at all>
        3 a:
        • unmeasured or unlimited in amount, number, or extent <any quantity you desire>
        3 b:
        • appreciably large or extended <could not endure it any length of time>
How much moments has she had meant?

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Post by Narsil » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:31 am

Please give a source for that claim.
It's in Middle English (pre-Shakespeare), defined as about a fortieth of an hour. Thus, a minute and thirty seconds.

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Post by Narsil » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:37 am

Also; the novel says that the time taken to Endor was a moment, Leia's (dialogue-based) knowledge from hundreds of light-years away that they'd be setting off soon does sort of come second to that.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:10 pm

Narsil wrote:
Please give a source for that claim.
It's in Middle English (pre-Shakespeare), defined as about a fortieth of an hour. Thus, a minute and thirty seconds.
It's still a claim and no source.
Maybe you are right. But why does no dictionary, I know, confirm it?
It's the first time, that I hear such thing.
And, as I have said, in German, there is the same word. But it has not the meaning, you claim it should have. According to a german dictionary, the MOMENT comes from the Latin word mōmentum (also mŏvimentum, mōmen), what has several meanings (movement, base, influence).

Narsil wrote:Also; the novel says that the time taken to Endor was a moment, Leia's (dialogue-based) knowledge from hundreds of light-years away that they'd be setting off soon does sort of come second to that.
The novel says:
  • The vast Rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star - but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision.
It says not, that the travel to the Death Star would last only one moment.

I don't see, how one could understand that quote that way. As Jedi Master Spock has said, that quote is an indication of time dilation in hyperspace. All the time for those out of hyperspace (several days) becomes for those in Hyperspace only a moment. While those out of hyperspace are waiting several days for the arrival of the expected fleet, the fleet itself has, while in hyperspace, only the feeling as if only one moment has passed.

Maybe you could explain, what you do with that "all time" and how you come to the conclusion, that the travel to Endor would last only one moment.

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Post by GStone » Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:39 pm

Narsil wrote:Also; the novel says that the time taken to Endor was a moment, Leia's (dialogue-based) knowledge from hundreds of light-years away that they'd be setting off soon does sort of come second to that.
Except, you're suggesting that we should take 'moment' from the novel and it can only be the literal definition with no allowence for figurative or nonliteral speech for the rest of the paragraph, saying the author would have been more specific if he wanted.

If we are to take nondialogue text as having more accuracy or authenticity, that means that Wars ships much shrink down to reduce their volume of being no bigger than what you'd find with a maximum of 50 MeV.

So, if 'all time was a moment' is literal, why does 'disappear within the flash of a muon' get classified as figurative? Replace flash with explosion and muon with building and the line can be seen as literal with the same weight.

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:47 pm

W.I.L.G.A wrote:I don't see, how one could understand that quote that way. As Jedi Master Spock has said, that quote is an indication of time dilation in hyperspace. All the time for those out of hyperspace (several days) becomes for those in Hyperspace only a moment. While those out of hyperspace are waiting several days for the arrival of the expected fleet, the fleet itself has, while in hyperspace, only the feeling as if only one moment has passed.
Or it could even simply be a way of expressing that in Hyperspace, you cannot really tell the time, or how long you have flow, for there are no external indications, such as on a road where you can estimate the time you're been driving by how many kilometers are left to the trip.
It could simply be a figuratively way of expressing an impression in Hyperspace, such as:
"In Hyperspace, one had no idea how long or how far he had gone, so entranced was one in the field's visual stimulization..."

I agree that in this sentence, "The vast Rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star - but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision., moment can have many meanings...

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