"Sullust To Endor" Now Online!

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:51 am

Wayne wrote:If I would have thought about it, I should have snuck the Enterprise into the hyperspace scenes!
What would have been funny is have it be passed by the SW ships, like a Porscha passing a Lada on the German Autoban... :)

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:43 am

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Your only argument in your whole video seems to be, that it would be boring (or unfitting), if the movie would have shown scenes as you have created them.
It's not surprising that you missed the entire point of the video, based on your obvious bias, and your myopic view in general. The point of the video is to highlight the utter absurdity of Robert's hilarious webpage on the subject. The video follows his timeline exactly, BTW.
Thanks for confirming what I have already said. See that Narsil?

But the point still stands. You don't provide any argument in your whole video but that it would be boring, if they would have shown, what all have done during the travel. But that is the case in the most movies. They don't show the boring parts. They show the departure and the arrival and what happens then, but usually not the boring travel in its whole extent. And that is good so because otherwise we would need weeks to see a movie.

And my point is not, that 2046 arguments can't be countered. The point is, that you don't deal with them in your video. It would be a good video, if it would be as funny as it is and counter the arguments of 2046 or Jedi Master Spock in a way, that no Trek Fan would ever use them again after seeing that video.

But as I have said, the video completly fails to fulfill its purpose.


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Why could it be impossible, that the Emporer has decided (off screen), to let Luke be put in a cell until shortly before the Alliance arrives?
Show me any canon or official proof anywhere that Luke was not meant to stand before the Emperor until the fleet arrived. Not self-serving, fanon, cargo-cult silliness.
I don't have to show canon or official proof for things that have happened off screen, particularly if I haven't claimed that this has happened but merely that this could be what has happened. You are free to find another explanation.

But your reasoning is flawed if you argue that the timeline can't happened the way it is shown in the movie because that would mean that Luke has stand in front of the Emperor several days. The later is the conclusion of the first. The first is the observation. Show that the observation is wrong. Then the conclusion is automatically wrong too.

If you aren't able to show, that the observation is wrong, you have to accept that so and so much time has passed and are free to find probable explanations, what could have happened in the meantime.


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Why could it be impossible, that the task force on Endor has needed much more time (off screen) than a few minutes to find the shield control room without being detected by the enemy?
You're seriously subscribing to the notion it took 12 HOURS for Han and co. to get to the control room from the bunker entrance, that it would take 12 HOURS for the Imperials seen running in to the bunker to 12 MORE HOURS to reach the same control room to arrest Han and co., and Han set the charges and ran at full tilt for 12 MORE HOURS outside the bunker before the control room blew? If so, the question of your employment in anything higher than baggage boy at a supermarket seriously comes in to question. (I know Robert snuck in "different Imperials" that arrested them, without any proof whatsoever, which makes it even more hilarious.)
Again, your reasoning is flawed. You have to attack the observation and not the conclusion. If the observation dictates that 12 hours have passed, you can try to find explanations.

There are various explanations possible. We don't know, how large the whole complex was. We don't know, that the tunnel has lead directly to the control room. If not, we don't know, how long they have needed to find the control room while sneaking. We don't know, how many guards they had have to circumvent or how long they have had to wait for an opportunity to circumvent a guard. We don't know, if they have had to hide in a unused broom chamber to prevent to be detected by a patrol. etc.


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Why could it be impossible, that Leia, as she has said any moments and not, as you have falsified, any minutes, wasn't sure about the exact time, the Alliance will arrive?
I love how you try to invent a gigantic conspiracy issue with moment/minute. As the video clearly states, The strike team, (according to Robert's timeline) the Rebels would have blown the generator room FOUR FULL DAYS before the Rebel fleet arrived. I'm not familiar with the nuances of Germanic timekeeping, but does the word "moment" mean "days" in Germany? Let's use that in a sentence from a receptionist in an office: "Yes sir, I'll be with you in a moment." Now, does the customer stand there for four days, or be taken to a cell to wait out the four days?
I don't try to invent a gigantic conspiracy issue. I have merely state the fact, that you have falsified, what Leia has said.

A moment is - according to Webster online - an indefinitely short time. Any means - according to LEO - arbitrarily or - according to Webster online - One or some or every or all without specification. As I understand it, any moment is a relativ indefinite time and not an exact time. How short or long is to be taken from the context.

And considering that Leia has used the future tense, I think she merely meant, that the fleet can be there any moment. She has not exactly known, when the fleet will arrive. Otherwise, she could have given an exact time like "Han, the fleet will be here in half an hour."

All I want to say with that, is that her line is open to several interpretations and that certain interpreations support certain opinions about how much time the fleet has needed, more than other interpretations.

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Why could it be impossible, that, as it happens often in movies, the shown scenes aren't played back in the order they have happened?
That happened in TESB, and its quite obvious when it does. What scene are you referring to in ROTJ? (This should be good.) If you are referring to some scenes being shot weeks apart from another, you've just admitted that Robert's Endor timeline is ridiculous, especially when referring to shadows from one scene to the other.
What makes it quite obvious in TESB, when shown scenes aren't played back in the order they have happened? If it is merely the context, that would apply here too.

Who says, that the fleet hasn't departured the amount of time after the Task Force has startet, that was given the Task Force to destroy the shield, so that the fleet was already in hyperspace, when the Task Force has landed on Endor. (In that case, the order in which the scenes were shown, would be not in the order they have happened.)

See, my problem is inter alia, that if the jump from Sullust to Endor is that short, why not waiting at Sullust for a confirmation signal from the Task Force that the shield was destroyed. Or don't they have "radio equipment" that could have send the fleet an encoded signal in the stolen shuttle or mobile "radio equipment" that they could have taken with them?

What if the Task Force hadn't succeded - as it has almost happened? What if Lando wouldn't have concluded - although that was not was the sensors were showing - that the shield was still up.
      • I mean, his conclusion was flawed. If I were the commander of the Death Star and would have noticed, that the shield generator was destroyed and my Death Star is not protected anymore, I would expect an imminent attack and jam all sensors too, so that an attacker wouldn't know, if the shield is still up or already down. That's why the fact, that the sensors have shown nothing, couldn't have been enough to conclude, that the shield is still up.
A part of the fleet would have crashed in the shield. That's a huge risk, they have taken by attacking the Death Star without waiting for a confirmation signal from the Task Force.
And if there is "radio equipment" with which the Task Force could have reached the fleet, it seems plausible to assume, that that was no option because the fleet was at that time already in hyperspace and not to be reached.



Another problem is, that it would be stupid to not retreat, after the fleet has noticed, that the shield is still up and that there is a whole imperial fleet waiting for them. Even if they could habe beaten the imperial fleet, that was at Endor from the beginning, they would have to consider, if the hyperdrive is that fast as you say, that reinforcement could arrive any moment. But they have decided to stay and attack the imperial fleet in the hope, that the task force is able to destroy the shield.
That seems to make only sense, if they have known, that the imperials can't get reinforcements during the time, it would take to wait, that the task force destroy the shield and they would need then to destroy the Death Star - and that although they couldn't have known, how long the task force would need and if they would have succes at all.
That would explain also, why they have stayed at Endor and celebrated their victory, although they would have to anticipate, that a new imperial fleet was send to Endor after a distress signal was sended or the contact was lost.
To me it seems, as if they were fairly sure, that no reinforcement will arrive at Endor in the foreseeable future. And that means, that the hyperdrive can't be so fast, as you say.

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:It's a pity that you have not countered important arguments, which confirm the notion, that more time than a few minutes have passed.
Again, the entire point of the video wizzed by your head. The video itself was a counter to the entire ridiculous concept.
No, as every one with common sense should regocnize, it was not. Its reasoning was flawed. It has not attacked the observations. It has merely presented absurd events, that could have happened in the time, that according to the observations has passed.

It is possible to invent other events, that are not so absurd as yours and are making sense and explain plausible, what happend while so much time has passed.

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:I think, the most important argument is, that it should be impossible for the Ewoks to build their traps as shown in the movie and described in the novel in a few hours without alerting the enemy.
As shown with the net trap, Ewoks already have traps laying around to deal with very large predators. The fact that they lured the stormtroopers to them also bears this out.
The net trap was whole dimensions smaller than the traps for the AT STs.
And who says, that it was not fur hunting?

If the Ewoks would have build traps, that could also endanger Imperials in that extent (that AT STs are endangered), do you realy think, the Imperials would have tolerated that?

Or do you think, that the Imperials, especially the scouts, haven't noticed the traps, if they would have been there all along?

The most plausible explanations seems to be, that the traps were build shortly before the attack of the Ewoks for that purpose.

And that they have had to lure the AT ST and the Stormtroopers to these traps is logical. They couldn't have build the traps within spitting distance of the troops that have waited in front of the secret entrance. They had have to build them a good distance away and lure them to the traps. What is your point?


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Maybe you should have shown, how the Ewoks could have done it.
Maybe the webpage the video was based on should have shown any proof whatsoever that the Ewoks actually did took four days to construct huge traps, undetected, around an area where Rebel activity has just been discovered.
Now you are self contradictory: You have already asserted that the Ewoks had have to lure the Stormtoopers to the traps because the traps were not in the immediate vicinity of the entrance.

On the other side, as I have already asked, do you think, that the Imperials would have tolerated such traps in the vicinity of their high security complex? If these traps were already there all along, the scouts and patrols should have noticed them.

But, as they have known, the rebels were already in the complex. Their attention was directed to the entrance and the complex, maybe also to the immediate vicinity. But not to the further vicinity because rebels, that would be there, wouldn't be a danger to the complex.


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:And maybe you should have explained the changing shadows between the time, the Alliance Task Force enters the tunnel and the time, the Imperials are entering the tunnel.
What about your lament above where you plead for understanding on when scenes are shot? The entire "shadows" thing is ridiculous when you consider that those scenes weren't shot on the same day.
And that from someone, who is a sticker to the Suspension of disbelief theory and uses fx errors to make up implausible theories about turbo lasers.

I admitt, that I'm not a fan of that theory. And usually I wouldn't use the shadows as a proof. But you hold to that theory and that means, that you have to accept, that the travel of the shadows indicate the passing time.

But even without the shadows, there is enough evidence to contradict the notion, that the jump form Sullust to Endor was only a few minutes long.


Cock_Knocker wrote:Let's look at Star Trek for instance. When Scotty's pointy-nosed nephew leaves a blood-stain on Kirk's uniform, why does it suddenly change size and shape? Why when Kirk is next seen on the bridge, we see the stain not only changed shape, but moved UP from where it was previously?

Image

Image

Image

Should I write a ridiculous webpage about Peter Preston's magical blood stain? Should we speculate that from the time we see him grab Kirk's uniform, Kirk went to his quarters, changed his tunic, then ran back to Sickbay to stand near Scotty just as some other dying crewmember left yet another stain on Kirk's new uniform?

Or how about this oddity in ST:TMP:

Spock smashes his console in one scene:

Image

Yet, in the very next scene the console is undamaged:

Image

Did Scotty run in there between scenes and fix the console?
No, these continuity issues are diffcult if not impossible to control, like outdoor settings. How about things you CAN control, such as FX shots:

Image

Image

Look at that! In one scene, Jupiter's moons aren't bathed in the sun's glow. Yet in another, they are! I wonder if I should write a webpage discussing how extremely long it too for the Enterprise to pass Jupiter?
If you stick to the Suspension of disbelief theory, yes, you would have to deal with such errors.

I prefer to see a movie as a movie and know that there are mistakes and am ready to accept them as such.

But you think, that what is shown, is a real record of the events.

If you forswear the Suspension of disbelief theory once and for all, I won't use the shadows as an argument anymore.


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:These arguments are known to you. They won't vanish only because you ignore them. To be honest, your video is preposterous and doesn't show much sharpness.
It must be so comforting to hide behind nanny-speak. That's what real men do, after all.
Excuse me. My english is not good enough that I would be able to swear fluent and it may be, that my word choice is sometimes a little bit weird to the ears of a native speaker. How many foreign language do you speak?

Besides, what has happened to your contents over style attitude? Why do you adress my style, but not what you see, I have meant?


Cock_Knocker wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:And even if the video's purpose were only comedy, does that mean, that its stupidity schouldn't be brought up in a critique? If you see a cabaret or a satire, don't you expect, although it is funny, a minimum of profoundness? Is not the truth in a comedy show what it makes it so funny?
The webpages the video is based on automatically make it comedy.
And that's the point. Your video fails to show it. It doesn't show, where the arguments on that website (especially regarding the Sullust-Endor-Jump) are comical. Your video fails to show, where the observations from the movie are wrong. All your video does, is showing absurd events, that could have happened off screen. But it shows not, why the off-screen time has to be shorter than the time, 2046 has calculated.

It's not my goal to prove, that the four days, 2046 has calculated, have to be correct. I don't care, how much time exactly has passed. Obviously, it was at least several hours.

But if you want debate that, you should go to the according thread.

My point was to show, that your video is absolutely useless to demonstrate anything because it has not one single argument.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:47 am

Praeothmin wrote:[...] Unless you're talking about W.I.L.G.A's post, which I haven't really read. [...]
Why not?
Praeothmin wrote:What would have been funny is have it be passed by the SW ships, like a Porscha passing a Lada on the German Autoban... :)
Autobahn

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Post by Narsil » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:48 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Narsil wrote: For the gods' sake man, grow a pair and stop whining.
For manners' sake, would you stop telling people to "grow a pair"?
Because obviously the world needs manners in order to function, doesn't it? I mean, Churchill was the paragon of politeness, and that's what helped him win his debates... oh, wait a minute, you haven't got a fucking clue about anything have you? And of course, what I said was no more rude than what Wilga Flintstone started off his line of posting with; an essential attack on what is a bloody comedy video.

The lack of overt insulting makes absolutely no difference, you fool, it's the content itself and not the amount of half-arsed rhetoric and Darkstar-esque fluff you put around it that makes it an insult or not.

I could very easily call you a fucking retard whose arguments are about as coherent as scribbling on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, I could say that your arguments tend to be inconsistent and that this seems to be a recurring trait.

I'll have said the exact same thing, it's just that the first is being a hell of a lot more honest about it. So, I repeat, and I repeat it very loudly (or as loud as text can manage to be) and very clearly; grow a fucking pair.

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Post by GStone » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Cock_Knocker wrote:First of all, the Imperials coming to capture them already knew they were there, thanks to the Emperor. Secondly, you need to prove that Ewoks were somehow DAYS away. Proof? Quotes?
Days for who? Stormtroopers or ewoks to make the journey? One can easily make the case for the ewoks because it takes them forever to cross 5 meters, even when scared because they have such fucking stubby legs.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:22 pm

Narsil wrote:And of course, what I said was no more rude than what Wilga Flintstone started off his line of posting with; an essential attack on what is a bloody comedy video.

As it seems, you haven't read that thread. Cock_Knocker has already admitted, that the video was not only a bloody comedy video:
    • Cock_Knocker wrote:The point of the video is to highlight the utter absurdity of Robert's hilarious webpage on the subject.
But, as I have said, the video fails to demonstrate the hilariousness of the observations, 2046 or Jedi Master Spock have made. It would be a good video, if it would be as "funny" as it is and counter the arguments of 2046 or Jedi Master Spock in a way, that no Trek Fan would ever use them again after seeing that video. But as I have said, the video completly fails to fulfill this purpose.

I have no problem, if you have another opinion. I have no problem, if you can shut down your brain while seeing a movie or a video and don't think about its content or lack of content or its mistakes etc. I have no problem, if you aren't interessted in a debate about a certain movie or video or the versus debate at all. But then, as I have said already, shut up.
Why do you attack those, who have fun debating it? What do you think, Cock_Knocker wanted to achieve by making that video? That we all only say, how funny we think it is.

If you are not interested, go away and never come back.

If you don't like the rules of that board, go away and never come back.

But shut up, if you have nothing to contribute to the debate.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:28 pm

Narsil wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Narsil wrote: For the gods' sake man, grow a pair and stop whining.
For manners' sake, would you stop telling people to "grow a pair"?
Because obviously the world needs manners in order to function, doesn't it? I mean, Churchill was the paragon of politeness, and that's what helped him win his debates... oh, wait a minute, you haven't got a fucking clue about anything have you? And of course, what I said was no more rude than what Wilga Flintstone started off his line of posting with; an essential attack on what is a bloody comedy video.

The lack of overt insulting makes absolutely no difference, you fool, it's the content itself and not the amount of half-arsed rhetoric and Darkstar-esque fluff you put around it that makes it an insult or not.

I could very easily call you a fucking retard whose arguments are about as coherent as scribbling on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, I could say that your arguments tend to be inconsistent and that this seems to be a recurring trait.

I'll have said the exact same thing, it's just that the first is being a hell of a lot more honest about it. So, I repeat, and I repeat it very loudly (or as loud as text can manage to be) and very clearly; grow a fucking pair.
And I repeat: We have rules about manners here. Curb your temper and people will listen to you more.

Churchill's parrot may say very rude things about the Nazis (who indubitably deserved much more said about them than is in the parrot's vocabulary), but when Churchill offered speeches, they would by and large by considered polite be modern standards. Direct, yes. Vitriolic, no.

Rudeness in serious public discourse is rare - and usually has a compelling motivation behind it. If you'd like to argue the point, I've made several threads on the topic already. We can pick up in one of those or start a new one.

WILGA is free to say the video is unfunny. You are free to in turn question his sense of humor for failing to find the video funny, but I don't see where he's attacking CK as much as simply giving the video a bad review.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:31 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:
Narsil wrote:And of course, what I said was no more rude than what Wilga Flintstone started off his line of posting with; an essential attack on what is a bloody comedy video.

As it seems, you haven't read that thread. Cock_Knocker has already admitted, that the video was not only a bloody comedy video:
    • Cock_Knocker wrote:The point of the video is to highlight the utter absurdity of Robert's hilarious webpage on the subject.
But, as I have said, the video fails to demonstrate the hilariousness of the observations, 2046 or Jedi Master Spock have made. It would be a good video, if it would be as "funny" as it is and counter the arguments of 2046 or Jedi Master Spock in a way, that no Trek Fan would ever use them again after seeing that video. But as I have said, the video completly fails to fulfill this purpose.

I have no problem, if you have another opinion. I have no problem, if you can shut down your brain while seeing a movie or a video and don't think about its content or lack of content or its mistakes etc. I have no problem, if you aren't interessted in a debate about a certain movie or video or the versus debate at all. But then, as I have said already, shut up.
Why do you attack those, who have fun debating it? What do you think, Cock_Knocker wanted to achieve by making that video? That we all only say, how funny we think it is.

If you are not interested, go away and never come back.

If you don't like the rules of that board, go away and never come back.

But shut up, if you have nothing to contribute to the debate.
And now you ARE starting to act hostile towards Narsil.

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:36 pm

W.I.L.G.A wrote:Praeothmin wrote:
[...] Unless you're talking about W.I.L.G.A's post, which I haven't really read. [...]

Why not?
Because your posts were discussing the lack of arguments, when this thread was simply to comment on whether we found the video funny or not.
I read your last, long post in response to Wayne's, and although I do agree with most of your points (which is why I had started the other thread), I did not feel it had its place in this thread.
You could have simply said:
"I don't find it funny, and I think your video proves or disproves nothing!"
And then start a thread detailing what you thought was wrong about it.

I must admit I loved it, not because I agree with what is said, but rather because it is absurd, the long silences between Luke and Vader, etc, etc...
And I just happen to love absurd humor.

And yes, I am one of those people who just love to be entertained and who are capable of switching our critical minds off when watching a movie or short animation.

And thanks for the "Autobahn".
I was pretty sure it needed an "h", just didn't know where to put it, and didn't feel like looking it up (internet laziness)... :)

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Re: "Sullust To Endor" Now Online!

Post by William Lim » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:00 pm

Cock_Knocker wrote:CLICK HERE!!
lol! hilarious video!

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:06 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Because your posts were discussing the lack of arguments, when this thread was simply to comment on whether we found the video funny or not.
Please explain me, from where you have got the notion, that his thread was simply to comment on whether we found the video funny or not?

The OP was only: For me, that means, that he not only wants to hear, how funny we have found his video. He seems to want a review or a critique. And that's what I have given him.

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:49 pm

Agreed W.I.L.G.A, the thread wasn't clear on its intent.

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Post by Narsil » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:36 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Agreed W.I.L.G.A, the thread wasn't clear on its intent.
Yes, because an obviously comedic video posted in a forum that specifically isn't for the purposes of versus debating (look several forums upwards for that one) obviously needs to be spelled out as comedy.

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Post by Narsil » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:16 pm

Oh, and I'll bite on the debate, if you want.

A moment is defined by historically as a minute and thirty seconds (longer term, the shorter term is seventy-two seconds); there's also a line in the novel saying that during the hyperspace trip between Sullust and Endor that 'all time was a moment'. That's two sources, Leia and the novelisation, that claim that the fleet arrived at the sanctuary moon in what can only be defined as a 'moment'.

This is admittedly longer than a minute, but not so much that the hundreds of lightyears between them have to take several hours. But taking it literally, and being as minimalistic as possible, that's two hundred lightyears in ninety seconds.

Doing a quick bit of arithmetic for a laugh; 4,608,000c

Have fun with that one.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:22 pm

And how long is "all time?" That passage is one of the strongest indications of time dilation in the G level in my opinion; not saying that the trip took a moment, but seemed only a moment in hyperspace.

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