Happy / Crappy Landings

[Cock_Knocker]

Crash landing comparisons in Star Wars and Star Trek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UIvFdTXJPs

[Kazeite]

Oh, Wayne, you and your works are the reason I argue for Trek side :)

Of course, since you won't dare to give another canon examples which make look Trek better than Wars, your "analysis" is, again, worthless.

[Who is like God arbour]

It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters.

• • 
    • • • • • • (CLICK ON IMAGE TO ENLARGE IT)

That information is important with the fact from before that helms controlls were offline. That means that the saucer has re-entered atmosphere totally uncontrolled.

But nevertheless, the by the atmospheric friction created plasma has neither damaged the hull of the saucer nor the windows on the front of the saucer which have had to withstand the most extrem temperatures and pressures while re-entering atmosphere.

And now look at the Invisible Hand. Although - before breaking apart - she was more controllable than the Enterprise - and even after she was broken apart, Annakin could still steer her and could approach a runway to land her - she hasn't nearly endured the re-entry as good as the Enterprise.

• • 
    
    
    
    

Her hull was almost totally burnded of. That observation is confirmed by the novelization:

• • ... "Strap in. Now. We're going in hot." Anakin grimaced at the scraps of burning hull flashing past the view wall. "In more ways than one." ...
    
    ... Needa glanced down at the boil of hull plating that was burning off the falling cruiser ...
    
    ... First, a flight of fireships," Needa said, more calmly now. "If they don't get the burnoff under control, there won't be enough hull left to make the surface ...
    
    ... Mace could see the ship now - what was left of it - resting on the scorched platform far ahead: a piece of a ship, a fragment less than a third of what once had been the Trade Federation flagship, still burning despite the gouts of fire-suppression foam raining down on it from five different ships and the emergency-support clone troops who surrounded it on the platform ...

That proves non-ambiguous that the hull of the Enterprise is far tougher concerning the toleration of heat energy than the hull of the Invisible Hand.



And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.

The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.

But the crash of the Enterprise has happend in the wildness, only leveled a little bit by their lateral thrusters. Her first impact was with a hill [18]. And while she was still sliding out, she has crossed at least three further hills.

The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.

That the windows of the bridge of the Invisible Hand weren't destroyed, means nothing. The windows of ten forward weren't destroyed either.

That the bridge ceiling window has broken is due to the greater impact the structure of the Enterprise has had to endure while crashing. That the windows of the bridge of the Invisible Hand aren't broken is due to the far less big impact and therefore less stress on her structure.

• • 

And the bridge of the Invisible Hand was mounted in a fashion to the ship that an impact shock wave from a landing wouldn't reach it because there was no direct assembly from the point of impact to the bridge. The bridge was not connected to the ship with the bottom side but with the rear side. Therfore a shockwave from below couldn't directly reach it and because the bridge was levitating freely it could swing slightly and with that absorb vibrations.

In that single case, the design was beneficial. In each other case (how often do such ships land?) such an exposed bridge would be considered as a catastrophe.

And it says nothing about the structural integrity of the Invisible Hand.

Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering. There were still no impacts and no impact shock waves. Only a more or less evenly acceleration. That doesn't speak in favor for the structural integrity of the Invisible Hand.

On the other side, the bridge windows of the Enterprise were at her highest and smallest point. That's the point where a impact shock wave - coming from the underside of the saucer - would meet together and focus and be at its greatest. The stress would be the highest at this point.

The structural integrity of the Enterprise saucer is clearly more robust than the integrity of the Invisible Hand.

[Cock_Knocker]

It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline

If you actually watched and understood the video, which your PM to me shows you have trouble with), you'd notice quite clearly that the announcement was made that the helm control was offline. No evidence was "forged", jackass.

Both informations are important for the conclusion that the saucer has re-entered atmosphere totally uncontrolled.

Again, that's quite clear in the video. The completely undamaged saucer section was sent out of control by a....shockwave.

And now look at the Invisible Hand. Although - before breaking apart - she was more controllable than the Enterprise - and even after she was broken apart, Annakin could still steer her and could approach a runway to land her.

Ain't that amazing? It went through concentrated enemy fire, broke in half, had no drive engines to speak of, and was completely open to atmospheric re-entry....

...and still landed with more control than the undamaged saucer section.

Her hull was almost totally burnded of.

Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....

That observation is confirmed by the novelization

Which doesn't match the canon movie at all. (Don't you just love when two can play at that game?).

That proves non-ambiguous that the hull of the Enterprise is far tougher concerning the toleration of heat energy than the hull of the Invisible Hand.

All it proves it that despite it being in one piece (unlike the IH), despitre it being completely being undamaged and untouched by enemy fire (Unlike the IH), it still couldn't land under control and with zero damage to the bridge or bridge crew as the IH did.

And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.

How? both slid to an upright stop. Except one was a whole and complete ship rendered inoperative by a...shockwave.

The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.

And the saucer landed in a nice, soft valley, as it was designed to do. THe IH was never intended to land on a planet. Much less half of it.

The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.

Right. I guess being in one piece is a liability, then.

And the bridge of the Invisible Hand was mounted in a fashion to the ship that an impact shock wave from a landing wouldn't reach it because there was no direct assembly from the point of impact to the bridge.

Uh huh. Even though the IH bridge was sticking out on a crop from the hull that was burned away? Oops...

Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.

I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.

Thanks. It's idiotic rebuttals like this which remind me why I don't do this on a regular basis anymore.

[Who is like God arbour]

It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline

If you actually watched and understood the video, which your PM to me shows you have trouble with), you'd notice quite clearly that the announcement was made that the helm control was offline. No evidence was "forged", jackass.

Yes - but - as I have said - the announcement that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters - were leaved out.

I have not claimed that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline.

Ain't that amazing? It went through concentrated enemy fire, broke in half, had no drive engines to speak of, and was completely open to atmospheric re-entry....

...and still landed with more control than the undamaged saucer section.

Yes exactly.

The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.

• • 
    
    

And we have seen that the fire weapon that has reached the inside of the IH has not caused great damages.If that has damaged the structure of the IH, it would be even less robust as I have thought originally.

Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.

And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating. No impacts or impact shock waves. That's really bad.

Her hull was almost totally burnded of.

Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....

I have said almost.

That observation is confirmed by the novelization

Which doesn't match the canon movie at all. (Don't you just love when two can play at that game?).

Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.

That proves non-ambiguous that the hull of the Enterprise is far tougher concerning the toleration of heat energy than the hull of the Invisible Hand.

All it proves it that despite it being in one piece (unlike the IH), despitre it being completely being undamaged and untouched by enemy fire (Unlike the IH), it still couldn't land under control and with zero damage to the bridge or bridge crew as the IH did.

There were large parts of the hull that wasn't damage before the re-entry by weapons fire but has burned nevertheless. The hull of the IH is not to be much good.

And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.

How? both slid to an upright stop. Except one was a whole and complete ship rendered inoperative by a...shockwave.

Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.

The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.

And the saucer landed in a nice, soft valley, as it was designed to do. THe IH was never intended to land on a planet. Much less half of it.

Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?

And the hills with which the Enterprise collided weren't soft.

The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.

Right. I guess being in one piece is a liability, then.

What does this mean?

And the bridge of the Invisible Hand was mounted in a fashion to the ship that an impact shock wave from a landing wouldn't reach it because there was no direct assembly from the point of impact to the bridge.

Uh huh. Even though the IH bridge was sticking out on a crop from the hull that was burned away? Oops...

Maybe you should use less sarcasm. I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
I argue here about the ability of the bridge to absorb vibrations (similar to a skyscraper during an earth quake) What has that to do with burning?

Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.

I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.

Please show me canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land.

And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.

And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.

Already he Enterprise NX-01 could take more damage without falling appart.

• • 

And the Enterprise NCC 1701 and the Enterprise NCC 1701-A could take heavy damages and were still be able to execute fast maneuvers in Star Trek II and IV.

And look at the damages the Voyager has taken during the Year of Hell and what it could still do in the last battle against the Krenim temporal weapon ship.

• • 

[Cock_Knocker]

I have not claimed that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline.

What are you smoking, today? Look at your own damned post, dishonest one:

It is interesting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline

Jeee-zus.....

Yes - but - as I have said - the announcement that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters - were leaved out.

A lot of things were "leaved out(sic) of both examples. I wasn't about to post the last 25 minutes of Generations, or the first 15 minutes of ROTS I got to the point, which was the landing.

The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.

Not according to the novelization you keep waving around.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

Quite dishonestly selective of you to dismiss the above.

And we have seen that the fire weapon that has reached the inside of the IH has not caused great damages.If that has damaged the structure of the IH, it would be even less robust as I have thought originally.

Not only had the Republic fleet hulled the IH in several places, but the internal explosions and the entire rear portion being open to atmospheric re-entry may have had something to do with it...

Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating.

Incorrect; intellectually and intentionally dishonest of you.

"The gravity generators have desynchronized-they'll tear the ship apart!"

Her hull was almost totally burnded of.

Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....

I have said almost.[/quote]

Almost as in 3%, 10%, what? What did the IH land on, if it wasn't the hull? If the hull was so compromised as you are suggesting, it shouldn't have been able to handle the weight of the ship crashing.

Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.

Patches of the hull were. But once it landed, as you can see in the very pictures you posted, the fires were already out. Mace's observation clearly doesn't match what we see in the movie. QED.

Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.

The saucer DID NOT "crash through several hills". Quit making up evidence, please.

Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?

Why would it need lateral thrusters in space, when it has impulse engines and stabilizers?

Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.

I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.

And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.

"Flying's no problem. The trick is landing, which, ah..." Anakin gave a slightly shaky laugh. "Which, you know, this cruiser is not exactly designed to do. Even when it's in one piece."

Funny how you can't find this shit on your own...

And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of the
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...

[Sandyin]

Your evidence that the saucer section of the galaxy class starship was designed to land is that it has thrusters? It would seem to me that a better reason for thrusters would be for things like separation and reattachment or maneuvering inside a starbase.

[Who is like God arbour]

What are you smoking, today? Look at your own damned post, dishonest one:

It is interesting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline

Jeee-zus.....

What are you smoking, today? Look at my own damned post:

• • It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters.

Jeee-zus.....

The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.

Not according to the novelization you keep waving around.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

Quite dishonestly selective of you to dismiss the above.

Even that quote proves that the damage was only superficial. After the IH has began to roll, nothing has breached the Hand's heavy armor. There were a few hull ruptures but her space frame structure was not damaged.

And we have seen that the fire weapon that has reached the inside of the IH has not caused great damages. If that has damaged the structure of the IH, it would be even less robust as I have thought originally.

Not only had the Republic fleet hulled the IH in several places, but the internal explosions and the entire rear portion being open to atmospheric re-entry may have had something to do with it...

As I have already said, the damages to the IH was only superficial. The space frame structure was not damaged.

We have seen the explosions in the weapons gallery. That were such tiny explosions that their fireballs haven't filled the whole gallery. They have destroyed the nearest weapons but weren't able to punch through the walls of the gallery behind the weapons.

• • 

These explosions weren't sufficiently to substantial damage the space frame structure.

• • 

And that image shows the IH after she was already hit by the first barrage. The damages are only superficial.

Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

Have you read that quote at all?

• • • • "[...] Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the Hand's heavy armor directly [...]"

The weapons haven't breached the hull after the IH has began to roll. There were a few hull ruptures. But how could the weapons fire do damage to the space frame structure?

And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating.

Incorrect; intellectually and intentionally dishonest of you.

"The gravity generators have desynchronized-they'll tear the ship apart!"

1. Don't expect that I know each little sentence.
2. That doesn't speaks in favor of the integrity of the space frame structure. We have seen that merely the horizon has changed. That means that suddenly only the gravity was coming from another direction. But it was still only Earth-like-gravity. Anakin and the Chancellor could walk without problems along the lift schaft that was now horizontal and not vertical anymore. If allone the change of direction of an Earth-like-gravity is able to tear the IH apart, it has not a good space frame structure. The same would happen if it would execute a fast turn in the similar strong gravity field. She would tear apart.
3. That problem was already solved as the IH has started to re-entry.

Her hull was almost totally burnded of.

Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....

I have said almost.

Almost as in 3%, 10%, what? What did the IH land on, if it wasn't the hull? If the hull was so compromised as you are suggesting, it shouldn't have been able to handle the weight of the ship crashing.

Only because the hull is burned of doesn't mean that there is no space frame structure anymore. The hull is not self-supporting but fixed on the space frame structure. Even without hull the IH shouldn't collapse.

And as I have said: not all hull was burnded of. It's irrelevant how much hull was still there when she landed. It could be that there was no hull there anymore on the bottom of the IH and she has landed directly on her space frame structure.
But surly there was no hull at the bottom anymore after she has slided to a stop.
And you should consider that the atmospheric friction is at the underside less strong than at the sides of the ship.

Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.

Patches of the hull were. But once it landed, as you can see in the very pictures you posted, the fires were already out. Mace's observation clearly doesn't match what we see in the movie. QED.

1. That would only overrule Mace's observation but not the other quotes.
2. And in the last image I have postet, I'm not able to see huge parts of the hull because the wads of smoke.
   • • 
   I couldn't say if the parts I can't see are still burning.

Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.

The saucer DID NOT "crash through several hills". Quit making up evidence, please.

Please watch the movie again. You can also look at the images 18, 19, 21, 23, 24 and 25. The saucer clearly has crashed through these hills.

Or how would you describe what these scenes are showing?

Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?

Why would it need lateral thrusters in space, when it has impulse engines and stabilizers?

You know that the Enterprise has maneuvering thrusters. And some of these thrusters are lateral aligned. She need them for example in a space dock because it is forbidden to use impulse engines in a space dock. What is your point?

That is - if you don't elaborate your point - no canonical proof that the Enterprise saucer is designed to land.

• • • • And even if you could proove that the Enterprise saucer was designed to land, it surly wasn't designed to crash. The descent was only leveled by the lateral thrusters and only with auxiliary energy. The Enterprise was still far to fast when she has collided with the first hill.
        If one has designed the saucer to land, it surly should happen under other conditions.
        I mean, a plane is also supposed to land but gets destroyed in a crash.
        What relevance would it have that the saucer could maybe - what you still have to prove - land?

And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.

"Flying's no problem. The trick is landing, which, ah..." Anakin gave a slightly shaky laugh. "Which, you know, this cruiser is not exactly designed to do. Even when it's in one piece."

Funny how you can't find this shit on your own...

Don't expect that I know each little sentence.

And as I see, that wasn't even said in the movie. One would have to check if there is a gap in the movie in which that sentence could have been said out of screen or if the movie shows that that sentence wasn't said. In the latter case, the movie would outrule that sentence.

And another question is why we shold take that comment literally. Obviously flying was a problem. Otherwise they wouldn't have landed but would have leaved the atmosphere and would have returned to a orbit.

It seems that Anakin has only joked. Why should we assume that the rest of the statement is correct?

And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

Have you read that quote at all?

• • • • "[...] Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the Hand's heavy armor directly [...]"

The weapons haven't breached the hull after the IH has began to roll. There were a few hull ruptures. But how could the weapons fire do damage to the space frame structure?

It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of the
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...

1. The ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters have had a far greater distance to the exploding death star. (Admiral Ackbar has orderd that all ships have to steer away from the Death Star long befor it has exloded.)
2. The Enterprise was in Orbit of Veridian 3. There was no time to repair some of the damages. The Rebel ships were heading away from Endor. They would have thrust away from the moon.
3. The shields of the Enterprise were destroyed. She was not protected against that shock wave. But the shields of the ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters were not destroyed.

[Praeothmin]

Cock_Knocker wrote:

It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of the
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...

Except that, as far as I remember, they weren't even buffeted by the explosions, weren't seen in the explosion's wake, except perhaps for the MF, which was rocked somewhat, but not that much...

Oh, and our spaceshuttles are made for landing, yet no one would think of crashing one to see how well it would fare...

[Mike DiCenso]

This is probably a topic best continued on in the Trek/Wars forum.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

But since we're on the subject, here's another good shot post slideout that shows the saucer section's leading edges, in particular the windows, still very much intact:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... 10&pos=128

For an interesting real-world comparison, a photo showing the S.S. Stockholm's heavily damaged bow after it's infamous collision with the luxury liner Andrea Doria:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _to_NY.jpg

The Stockholm collision with the Andrea Doria occured at a far slower speed than the E-D saucer section's rock outcropping impact and subsequent slideout.
-Mike

[Kazeite]

So, basically, we have saucer that plowed through the atmosphere in an uncontrolled descent (and yet shows no damage whatsoever - not even burn marks), plowed through multiple hills so hard people fell out of their chairs (but not hard enough to receive any discernible damage).

On the other hand, we have ship that fell of the low orbit receiving extensive hull damage, broke in half, fell from the sky like a burning comet and then impacted the runaway, crumpling like a beer can...

and Wayne claims that this proves Wars superiority :D

So, yeah, I'll give him that - based on this example, it seems Wars have better intertial dampeners. But everything else is inferior to its trek equivalent. Sorry :)

[Praeothmin]

I was watching ST: Generations yesterday, and at the time of the crash, I noticed that Data only succeeded in re-activating maneuvereing thrusters immediately before the impact (a few moments before, but well after the completely uncontrolled atmospheric entry).

So we do know, from canon, that the saucer section of a Galaxy-class, with all systems off-line, can survive relatively unscathed an uncontrolled atmospheric entry.

I also noticed that, when Picard visits the Bridge of the ship, it is much more damaged then immediately after the crash, thus why the ship (of which only the saucer section remained) was declared unsalvadgeable.

I believe it is possible that most of the interior damage that destroyed the ship came from fires that raged after the impact, much like the twin towers in NY, that survived high velocity impacts from the planes, before the structural integrity was weakened by the fires raging inside...

[watchdog]

OK so what exactly is being argued here? The fact that trek ships can survive a crash landing better than wars? As easily as the Invisible Hand began to burn, it calls into question the actuall power of the weapons used. I recall that one claim made by the ICS was that the ships hulls were able to conduct thermal energy away or something, an attempt to explain the tiny explosions I assume. If the weapons were as powerful as they claim, and the hull could channel away thermal energy, the hull should not have caught fire at all from reentry.