Happy / Crappy Landings
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- Who is like God arbour
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It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters.
That information is important with the fact from before that helms controlls were offline. That means that the saucer has re-entered atmosphere totally uncontrolled.
But nevertheless, the by the atmospheric friction created plasma has neither damaged the hull of the saucer nor the windows on the front of the saucer which have had to withstand the most extrem temperatures and pressures while re-entering atmosphere.
And now look at the Invisible Hand. Although - before breaking apart - she was more controllable than the Enterprise - and even after she was broken apart, Annakin could still steer her and could approach a runway to land her - she hasn't nearly endured the re-entry as good as the Enterprise.
And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.
The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.
But the crash of the Enterprise has happend in the wildness, only leveled a little bit by their lateral thrusters. Her first impact was with a hill [18]. And while she was still sliding out, she has crossed at least three further hills.
The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.
That the windows of the bridge of the Invisible Hand weren't destroyed, means nothing. The windows of ten forward weren't destroyed either.
That the bridge ceiling window has broken is due to the greater impact the structure of the Enterprise has had to endure while crashing. That the windows of the bridge of the Invisible Hand aren't broken is due to the far less big impact and therefore less stress on her structure.
In that single case, the design was beneficial. In each other case (how often do such ships land?) such an exposed bridge would be considered as a catastrophe.
And it says nothing about the structural integrity of the Invisible Hand.
Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering. There were still no impacts and no impact shock waves. Only a more or less evenly acceleration. That doesn't speak in favor for the structural integrity of the Invisible Hand.
On the other side, the bridge windows of the Enterprise were at her highest and smallest point. That's the point where a impact shock wave - coming from the underside of the saucer - would meet together and focus and be at its greatest. The stress would be the highest at this point.
The structural integrity of the Enterprise saucer is clearly more robust than the integrity of the Invisible Hand.
But nevertheless, the by the atmospheric friction created plasma has neither damaged the hull of the saucer nor the windows on the front of the saucer which have had to withstand the most extrem temperatures and pressures while re-entering atmosphere.
And now look at the Invisible Hand. Although - before breaking apart - she was more controllable than the Enterprise - and even after she was broken apart, Annakin could still steer her and could approach a runway to land her - she hasn't nearly endured the re-entry as good as the Enterprise.
- ... "Strap in. Now. We're going in hot." Anakin grimaced at the scraps of burning hull flashing past the view wall. "In more ways than one." ...
... Needa glanced down at the boil of hull plating that was burning off the falling cruiser ...
... First, a flight of fireships," Needa said, more calmly now. "If they don't get the burnoff under control, there won't be enough hull left to make the surface ...
... Mace could see the ship now - what was left of it - resting on the scorched platform far ahead: a piece of a ship, a fragment less than a third of what once had been the Trade Federation flagship, still burning despite the gouts of fire-suppression foam raining down on it from five different ships and the emergency-support clone troops who surrounded it on the platform ...
- ... "Strap in. Now. We're going in hot." Anakin grimaced at the scraps of burning hull flashing past the view wall. "In more ways than one." ...
And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.
The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.
But the crash of the Enterprise has happend in the wildness, only leveled a little bit by their lateral thrusters. Her first impact was with a hill [18]. And while she was still sliding out, she has crossed at least three further hills.
The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.
That the windows of the bridge of the Invisible Hand weren't destroyed, means nothing. The windows of ten forward weren't destroyed either.
That the bridge ceiling window has broken is due to the greater impact the structure of the Enterprise has had to endure while crashing. That the windows of the bridge of the Invisible Hand aren't broken is due to the far less big impact and therefore less stress on her structure.
In that single case, the design was beneficial. In each other case (how often do such ships land?) such an exposed bridge would be considered as a catastrophe.
And it says nothing about the structural integrity of the Invisible Hand.
Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering. There were still no impacts and no impact shock waves. Only a more or less evenly acceleration. That doesn't speak in favor for the structural integrity of the Invisible Hand.
On the other side, the bridge windows of the Enterprise were at her highest and smallest point. That's the point where a impact shock wave - coming from the underside of the saucer - would meet together and focus and be at its greatest. The stress would be the highest at this point.
The structural integrity of the Enterprise saucer is clearly more robust than the integrity of the Invisible Hand.
- Cock_Knocker
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If you actually watched and understood the video, which your PM to me shows you have trouble with), you'd notice quite clearly that the announcement was made that the helm control was offline. No evidence was "forged", jackass.Who is like God arbour wrote:It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline
Again, that's quite clear in the video. The completely undamaged saucer section was sent out of control by a....shockwave.Both informations are important for the conclusion that the saucer has re-entered atmosphere totally uncontrolled.
Ain't that amazing? It went through concentrated enemy fire, broke in half, had no drive engines to speak of, and was completely open to atmospheric re-entry....And now look at the Invisible Hand. Although - before breaking apart - she was more controllable than the Enterprise - and even after she was broken apart, Annakin could still steer her and could approach a runway to land her.
...and still landed with more control than the undamaged saucer section.
Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....Her hull was almost totally burnded of.
Which doesn't match the canon movie at all. (Don't you just love when two can play at that game?).That observation is confirmed by the novelization
All it proves it that despite it being in one piece (unlike the IH), despitre it being completely being undamaged and untouched by enemy fire (Unlike the IH), it still couldn't land under control and with zero damage to the bridge or bridge crew as the IH did.That proves non-ambiguous that the hull of the Enterprise is far tougher concerning the toleration of heat energy than the hull of the Invisible Hand.
How? both slid to an upright stop. Except one was a whole and complete ship rendered inoperative by a...shockwave.And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.
And the saucer landed in a nice, soft valley, as it was designed to do. THe IH was never intended to land on a planet. Much less half of it.The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.
Right. I guess being in one piece is a liability, then.The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.
And the bridge of the Invisible Hand was mounted in a fashion to the ship that an impact shock wave from a landing wouldn't reach it because there was no direct assembly from the point of impact to the bridge.
Uh huh. Even though the IH bridge was sticking out on a crop from the hull that was burned away? Oops...
I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.
Thanks. It's idiotic rebuttals like this which remind me why I don't do this on a regular basis anymore.
- Who is like God arbour
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Yes - but - as I have said - the announcement that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters - were leaved out.Cock_Knocker wrote:If you actually watched and understood the video, which your PM to me shows you have trouble with), you'd notice quite clearly that the announcement was made that the helm control was offline. No evidence was "forged", jackass.Who is like God arbour wrote:It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline
I have not claimed that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline.
Yes exactly.Ain't that amazing? It went through concentrated enemy fire, broke in half, had no drive engines to speak of, and was completely open to atmospheric re-entry....
...and still landed with more control than the undamaged saucer section.
The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.
Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.
And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating. No impacts or impact shock waves. That's really bad.
I have said almost.Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....Her hull was almost totally burnded of.
Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.Which doesn't match the canon movie at all. (Don't you just love when two can play at that game?).That observation is confirmed by the novelization
There were large parts of the hull that wasn't damage before the re-entry by weapons fire but has burned nevertheless. The hull of the IH is not to be much good.All it proves it that despite it being in one piece (unlike the IH), despitre it being completely being undamaged and untouched by enemy fire (Unlike the IH), it still couldn't land under control and with zero damage to the bridge or bridge crew as the IH did.That proves non-ambiguous that the hull of the Enterprise is far tougher concerning the toleration of heat energy than the hull of the Invisible Hand.
Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.How? both slid to an upright stop. Except one was a whole and complete ship rendered inoperative by a...shockwave.And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.
Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?And the saucer landed in a nice, soft valley, as it was designed to do. THe IH was never intended to land on a planet. Much less half of it.The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.
And the hills with which the Enterprise collided weren't soft.
What does this mean?Right. I guess being in one piece is a liability, then.The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.
Maybe you should use less sarcasm. I don't really understand what you are trying to say.And the bridge of the Invisible Hand was mounted in a fashion to the ship that an impact shock wave from a landing wouldn't reach it because there was no direct assembly from the point of impact to the bridge.
Uh huh. Even though the IH bridge was sticking out on a crop from the hull that was burned away? Oops...
I argue here about the ability of the bridge to absorb vibrations (similar to a skyscraper during an earth quake) What has that to do with burning?
Please show me canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land.I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.
And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.
And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.
Already he Enterprise NX-01 could take more damage without falling appart.
And look at the damages the Voyager has taken during the Year of Hell and what it could still do in the last battle against the Krenim temporal weapon ship.
- Cock_Knocker
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What are you smoking, today? Look at your own damned post, dishonest one:Who is like God arbour wrote:I have not claimed that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline.
Jeee-zus.....Who is like God arbour wrote:It is interesting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline
A lot of things were "leaved out(sic) of both examples. I wasn't about to post the last 25 minutes of Generations, or the first 15 minutes of ROTS I got to the point, which was the landing.Yes - but - as I have said - the announcement that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters - were leaved out.
Not according to the novelization you keep waving around.The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.
Quite dishonestly selective of you to dismiss the above.ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.90 wrote:As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.
Not only had the Republic fleet hulled the IH in several places, but the internal explosions and the entire rear portion being open to atmospheric re-entry may have had something to do with it...And we have seen that the fire weapon that has reached the inside of the IH has not caused great damages.If that has damaged the structure of the IH, it would be even less robust as I have thought originally.
Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.
ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.90 wrote:As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.
Incorrect; intellectually and intentionally dishonest of you.And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating.
ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.105 wrote:"The gravity generators have desynchronized-they'll tear the ship apart!"
I have said almost.[/quote]Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....Her hull was almost totally burnded of.
Almost as in 3%, 10%, what? What did the IH land on, if it wasn't the hull? If the hull was so compromised as you are suggesting, it shouldn't have been able to handle the weight of the ship crashing.
Patches of the hull were. But once it landed, as you can see in the very pictures you posted, the fires were already out. Mace's observation clearly doesn't match what we see in the movie. QED.Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.
The saucer DID NOT "crash through several hills". Quit making up evidence, please.Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.
Why would it need lateral thrusters in space, when it has impulse engines and stabilizers?Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?
I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.
And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.
Funny how you can't find this shit on your own...ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.131 wrote:"Flying's no problem. The trick is landing, which, ah..." Anakin gave a slightly shaky laugh. "Which, you know, this cruiser is not exactly designed to do. Even when it's in one piece."
And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.
It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of theROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.90 wrote:As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...
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What are you smoking, today? Look at my own damned post:Cock_Knocker wrote:What are you smoking, today? Look at your own damned post, dishonest one:
Jeee-zus.....What I have not wrote:It is interesting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline
- Who is like God arbour wrote:It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters.
Even that quote proves that the damage was only superficial. After the IH has began to roll, nothing has breached the Hand's heavy armor. There were a few hull ruptures but her space frame structure was not damaged.Not according to the novelization you keep waving around.The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.
Quite dishonestly selective of you to dismiss the above.ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.90 wrote:As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.
As I have already said, the damages to the IH was only superficial. The space frame structure was not damaged.Not only had the Republic fleet hulled the IH in several places, but the internal explosions and the entire rear portion being open to atmospheric re-entry may have had something to do with it...And we have seen that the fire weapon that has reached the inside of the IH has not caused great damages. If that has damaged the structure of the IH, it would be even less robust as I have thought originally.
We have seen the explosions in the weapons gallery. That were such tiny explosions that their fireballs haven't filled the whole gallery. They have destroyed the nearest weapons but weren't able to punch through the walls of the gallery behind the weapons.These explosions weren't sufficiently to substantial damage the space frame structure.
Have you read that quote at all?Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.90 wrote:As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.
- "[...] Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the Hand's heavy armor directly [...]"
Incorrect; intellectually and intentionally dishonest of you.And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating.
ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.105 wrote:"The gravity generators have desynchronized-they'll tear the ship apart!"
- Don't expect that I know each little sentence.
- That doesn't speaks in favor of the integrity of the space frame structure. We have seen that merely the horizon has changed. That means that suddenly only the gravity was coming from another direction. But it was still only Earth-like-gravity. Anakin and the Chancellor could walk without problems along the lift schaft that was now horizontal and not vertical anymore. If allone the change of direction of an Earth-like-gravity is able to tear the IH apart, it has not a good space frame structure. The same would happen if it would execute a fast turn in the similar strong gravity field. She would tear apart.
- That problem was already solved as the IH has started to re-entry.
Only because the hull is burned of doesn't mean that there is no space frame structure anymore. The hull is not self-supporting but fixed on the space frame structure. Even without hull the IH shouldn't collapse.Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....Her hull was almost totally burnded of.Almost as in 3%, 10%, what? What did the IH land on, if it wasn't the hull? If the hull was so compromised as you are suggesting, it shouldn't have been able to handle the weight of the ship crashing.I have said almost.
And as I have said: not all hull was burnded of. It's irrelevant how much hull was still there when she landed. It could be that there was no hull there anymore on the bottom of the IH and she has landed directly on her space frame structure.
But surly there was no hull at the bottom anymore after she has slided to a stop.
And you should consider that the atmospheric friction is at the underside less strong than at the sides of the ship.
Patches of the hull were. But once it landed, as you can see in the very pictures you posted, the fires were already out. Mace's observation clearly doesn't match what we see in the movie. QED.Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.
- That would only overrule Mace's observation but not the other quotes.
- And in the last image I have postet, I'm not able to see huge parts of the hull because the wads of smoke.
Please watch the movie again. You can also look at the images 18, 19, 21, 23, 24 and 25. The saucer clearly has crashed through these hills.The saucer DID NOT "crash through several hills". Quit making up evidence, please.Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.
Or how would you describe what these scenes are showing?
You know that the Enterprise has maneuvering thrusters. And some of these thrusters are lateral aligned. She need them for example in a space dock because it is forbidden to use impulse engines in a space dock. What is your point?Why would it need lateral thrusters in space, when it has impulse engines and stabilizers?Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?
That is - if you don't elaborate your point - no canonical proof that the Enterprise saucer is designed to land.
- And even if you could proove that the Enterprise saucer was designed to land, it surly wasn't designed to crash. The descent was only leveled by the lateral thrusters and only with auxiliary energy. The Enterprise was still far to fast when she has collided with the first hill.
If one has designed the saucer to land, it surly should happen under other conditions.
I mean, a plane is also supposed to land but gets destroyed in a crash.
What relevance would it have that the saucer could maybe - what you still have to prove - land?
- And even if you could proove that the Enterprise saucer was designed to land, it surly wasn't designed to crash. The descent was only leveled by the lateral thrusters and only with auxiliary energy. The Enterprise was still far to fast when she has collided with the first hill.
Don't expect that I know each little sentence.And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.Funny how you can't find this shit on your own...ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.131 wrote:"Flying's no problem. The trick is landing, which, ah..." Anakin gave a slightly shaky laugh. "Which, you know, this cruiser is not exactly designed to do. Even when it's in one piece."
And as I see, that wasn't even said in the movie. One would have to check if there is a gap in the movie in which that sentence could have been said out of screen or if the movie shows that that sentence wasn't said. In the latter case, the movie would outrule that sentence.
And another question is why we shold take that comment literally. Obviously flying was a problem. Otherwise they wouldn't have landed but would have leaved the atmosphere and would have returned to a orbit.
It seems that Anakin has only joked. Why should we assume that the rest of the statement is correct?
And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.
Have you read that quote at all?ROTS Novelization (Hardcover), pg.90 wrote:As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.
- "[...] Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the Hand's heavy armor directly [...]"
It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of the
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...
- The ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters have had a far greater distance to the exploding death star. (Admiral Ackbar has orderd that all ships have to steer away from the Death Star long befor it has exloded.)
- The Enterprise was in Orbit of Veridian 3. There was no time to repair some of the damages. The Rebel ships were heading away from Endor. They would have thrust away from the moon.
- The shields of the Enterprise were destroyed. She was not protected against that shock wave. But the shields of the ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters were not destroyed.
- Praeothmin
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Cock_Knocker wrote:
Oh, and our spaceshuttles are made for landing, yet no one would think of crashing one to see how well it would fare...
Except that, as far as I remember, they weren't even buffeted by the explosions, weren't seen in the explosion's wake, except perhaps for the MF, which was rocked somewhat, but not that much...It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of the
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...
Oh, and our spaceshuttles are made for landing, yet no one would think of crashing one to see how well it would fare...
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But since we're on the subject, here's another good shot post slideout that shows the saucer section's leading edges, in particular the windows, still very much intact:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... 10&pos=128
For an interesting real-world comparison, a photo showing the S.S. Stockholm's heavily damaged bow after it's infamous collision with the luxury liner Andrea Doria:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _to_NY.jpg
The Stockholm collision with the Andrea Doria occured at a far slower speed than the E-D saucer section's rock outcropping impact and subsequent slideout.
-Mike
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... 10&pos=128
For an interesting real-world comparison, a photo showing the S.S. Stockholm's heavily damaged bow after it's infamous collision with the luxury liner Andrea Doria:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _to_NY.jpg
The Stockholm collision with the Andrea Doria occured at a far slower speed than the E-D saucer section's rock outcropping impact and subsequent slideout.
-Mike
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So, basically, we have saucer that plowed through the atmosphere in an uncontrolled descent (and yet shows no damage whatsoever - not even burn marks), plowed through multiple hills so hard people fell out of their chairs (but not hard enough to receive any discernible damage).
On the other hand, we have ship that fell of the low orbit receiving extensive hull damage, broke in half, fell from the sky like a burning comet and then impacted the runaway, crumpling like a beer can...
and Wayne claims that this proves Wars superiority :D
So, yeah, I'll give him that - based on this example, it seems Wars have better intertial dampeners. But everything else is inferior to its trek equivalent. Sorry :)
On the other hand, we have ship that fell of the low orbit receiving extensive hull damage, broke in half, fell from the sky like a burning comet and then impacted the runaway, crumpling like a beer can...
and Wayne claims that this proves Wars superiority :D
So, yeah, I'll give him that - based on this example, it seems Wars have better intertial dampeners. But everything else is inferior to its trek equivalent. Sorry :)
- Praeothmin
- Jedi Master
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I was watching ST: Generations yesterday, and at the time of the crash, I noticed that Data only succeeded in re-activating maneuvereing thrusters immediately before the impact (a few moments before, but well after the completely uncontrolled atmospheric entry).
So we do know, from canon, that the saucer section of a Galaxy-class, with all systems off-line, can survive relatively unscathed an uncontrolled atmospheric entry.
I also noticed that, when Picard visits the Bridge of the ship, it is much more damaged then immediately after the crash, thus why the ship (of which only the saucer section remained) was declared unsalvadgeable.
I believe it is possible that most of the interior damage that destroyed the ship came from fires that raged after the impact, much like the twin towers in NY, that survived high velocity impacts from the planes, before the structural integrity was weakened by the fires raging inside...
So we do know, from canon, that the saucer section of a Galaxy-class, with all systems off-line, can survive relatively unscathed an uncontrolled atmospheric entry.
I also noticed that, when Picard visits the Bridge of the ship, it is much more damaged then immediately after the crash, thus why the ship (of which only the saucer section remained) was declared unsalvadgeable.
I believe it is possible that most of the interior damage that destroyed the ship came from fires that raged after the impact, much like the twin towers in NY, that survived high velocity impacts from the planes, before the structural integrity was weakened by the fires raging inside...
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- Jedi Knight
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OK so what exactly is being argued here? The fact that trek ships can survive a crash landing better than wars? As easily as the Invisible Hand began to burn, it calls into question the actuall power of the weapons used. I recall that one claim made by the ICS was that the ships hulls were able to conduct thermal energy away or something, an attempt to explain the tiny explosions I assume. If the weapons were as powerful as they claim, and the hull could channel away thermal energy, the hull should not have caught fire at all from reentry.